Doomglaive Dreadnought/Vortimer LR Redeemer

[Skywrath]

Greetings sons of Titan.

 

Straight to the point, what are your thoughts on a Vortimer Pattern Land Raider Redeemer and the Doomglaive dreadnought? I'm looking for experiences on table-tops, anecdotes, anything really of note to help finalise a decision. 

 

The other question I have - assuming the Doomglaive Dreadnought is worth building, how would you attempt to build one? 

 

Thanks in advance. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[WAR]

Honestly the point increase are not justified over the standard versions. I have the kits but if and when I field the voritmer redeemer it will be as a regular redeemer. The vortimer dreads I field as ven dreads with lascannon missile launcher.

 

If you wanted to build the dread I would recommend the blood angel Librarian dread

[Seizeman]

The dread was decent just when 8th was released, because the psycannon was pretty good for its points and the doomblaid was super cheap, so they were quite usefu. Now, they are absolute garbage. Not only are dreadnoughts in general really bad (and grey knight ones specially), but the doomglaive costs 31 points more for absolutely no reason, no special rules, not different stats, just completely ridiculous.

 

The vortimer is just a redeemer, except with worse assault launchers and, instead of a decent top weapon, you get a twin psycannon... for FIFTY POINTS. You know that weapon that costs 7 points and is already considered useless and extremely overcosted? Just two of them together, and according to FW math, 2x7=50.

 

The only good thing about them is they come with grey knight specific details, so you can buy them and just switch their weapons for regular ones and use them as their regular versions, just cooler, but they are mighty expensive.

[Icosiel]

I have a Vortimer Land Raider and I just run it as a regular Redeemer.

[Skywrath]

Honestly the point increase are not justified over the standard versions. I have the kits but if and when I field the voritmer redeemer it will be as a regular redeemer. The vortimer dreads I field as ven dreads with lascannon missile launcher.

 

If you wanted to build the dread I would recommend the blood angel Librarian dread

 

Just had a look at the Librarian Dread, looks to be a pretty good fit for that idea. I presume, you would carve out the blood angel symbol on one of those plates, or replace them with the venerable dreadnought bits/plates? 

 

The dread was decent just when 8th was released, because the psycannon was pretty good for its points and the doomblaid was super cheap, so they were quite usefu. Now, they are absolute garbage. Not only are dreadnoughts in general really bad (and grey knight ones specially), but the doomglaive costs 31 points more for absolutely no reason, no special rules, not different stats, just completely ridiculous.

 

The vortimer is just a redeemer, except with worse assault launchers and, instead of a decent top weapon, you get a twin psycannon... for FIFTY POINTS. You know that weapon that costs 7 points and is already considered useless and extremely overcosted? Just two of them together, and according to FW math, 2x7=50.

 

The only good thing about them is they come with grey knight specific details, so you can buy them and just switch their weapons for regular ones and use them as their regular versions, just cooler, but they are mighty expensive.

 

It's been my observation, that you seem to use the word garbage a lot when referencing anything that is not related to the double-paladin bomb. Is that actually the case (the units are actually bad), or do you have a bias towards that list? Not trying to have a go at you, just something I observed. As for your logic, I'll consider it when I make my decision. 

 

[WAR]

 

 

Honestly the point increase are not justified over the standard versions. I have the kits but if and when I field the voritmer redeemer it will be as a regular redeemer. The vortimer dreads I field as ven dreads with lascannon missile launcher.

 

If you wanted to build the dread I would recommend the blood angel Librarian dread

Just had a look at the Librarian Dread, looks to be a pretty good fit for that idea. I presume, you would carve out the blood angel symbol on one of those plates, or replace them with the venerable dreadnought bits/plates?

Correct

[Captain Coolpants]

The vort dreadnought model itself is cool! And was alright a few editions ago because the glaive had its own special rules and was a force weapon.

But to use today isn't really worth it unless its a very friendly game. Gun is short range, and the model is slow. So you can either waste a gate on it, or put it im a stormraven (which is absolutely ludicrous).

 

Get way more points worth just using a ven dread at long range behind cover using astral aim. Cheaper too.

 

And for the model... Honestly.. I just used a recaster. Even when FW were still selling it. The whole model cost like £15 and was good quality too.

Or you could just buy a ven dread body, and buy a blood angels librarian combat arm

If you buy a whole librarian dread you're going to spend a good amount of time getting rid of all the blood angel insignias. Whereas a regular standard ven has almost nothing.

 

The vort landraider.... Unfortunately has always been overcosted. And just not better than using a standard one.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Seizeman]

 

It's been my observation, that you seem to use the word garbage a lot when referencing anything that is not related to the double-paladin bomb. Is that actually the case (the units are actually bad), or do you have a bias towards that list? Not trying to have a go at you, just something I observed. As for your logic, I'll consider it when I make my decision. 

 

 

I only use the word garbage when I talk about something that you have absolutely no reason to play over some other choice.

 

In the case of the dreadnought, as I already mentioned,  it costs 31 more points than the regular venerable for absolutely no benefit. The regular dreadnought is already quite bad and not competitive, so paying 31 extra points for the same thing makes absolutely no sense.

 

Similarly, in the case of the vortimer, a land raider is already a bad unit. The vortimer is just a land raider redeemer,  with a strictly worse abilty, with a strictly worse weapon but with a higher cost. It's worst than the regular redeemer in literally every aspect, so it's totally useless, which fits the definition (the dictionary definition) of garbage.

 

Sadly, since we have so few units, most of them using the same models, and the designers have made such a poor job of making them different, we have too many cases of that situation in our codex.

 

In an army like space marines, you could say "X unit is better than Y", and that to be true in a general sense (because they are more efficient, more adequate to the meta, etc), but there's probably still specific situations where Y is better, or maybe you have enough points left for Y but not for X, or you simply have Y models and not X ones, so they would not be classified as useless (unless the difference in general performance is too big or the situational advantages too extreme). In the case of the grey knight units aforementioned, they are just the same model, higher cost, same or worse performance, so there's absolutely nothing to justify them. It's a similar situation with Purifier vs strike squads, same cost, worse abilities, no situation in which they are particularly better.

 

In the case of the Paladin list, when you exclude all useless units, there's no much to choose from, and that's pretty much what you play competitively. There a couple of choices that are viable, but they are anti-sinergistic with the rest of the list, so they are not useful in a competitive setting. With most armies, is not the army in general that's really competitive, but a specific list with specific choices, and this is the case with Grey Knights.

 

So, yes, I use the word garbage sometimes, but it's always justified.

[Valerian]

Yep, you can’t argue with any of that. Some units are just bad, and there’s nothing to be done about it, outside of waiting for a new codex that changes the unit, or a new edition, that changes the underlying context upon which the unit performs.

[Skywrath]

I see the Doomglaive is very well suited in melee combat, but aside from that, a Venerable is better, from what I gather. However, my counter-point would be, with most people running Invictor Warsuits/Dreadnoughts, do you see them as a dedicated toe-to-toe killing option? Very niche, but just an idea I have.

 

However, with the Vortimer, I'm still not really seeing the issue. I acknowledge that Land Raiders are worse than Repulsors Executioners/Repulsors. However would you consider the logic that a Vortimer worse then a Redeemer, when there is a synergy between it's psycannon, and the psychic onslaught strategem, on top of the tide (which one buffs the psi-weaponry)? I can see that working quite well honestly.

[Captain Coolpants]

Vortimer is just more expensive than a regular redeemer. And a redeemer isn't good to begin with.

 

The tides only affect infantry too. And unless you want to waste cp for a single twin psycannon (when it would be much more cost affective on a GMDK with psilancer and HEAVY psycannon)

 

 

And I wouldn't say the doomglaive is better in combat than a regular venerable dread either. Venerable fist is X2 strength and guaranteed 3 damage. And the doomglaive is only +3 strength and d6 damage. So POTENTIALLY can do more damage, but is less likely to wound, and if it does, the average is around 3 damage per d6 thrown anyway. And you pay more for it. Definitely a cooler model though!

Edited May 5, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Skywrath]

Vortimer is just more expensive than a regular redeemer. And a redeemer isn't good to begin with.

 

The tides only affect infantry too. And unless you want to waste cp for a single twin psycannon (when it would be much more cost affective on a GMDK with psilancer and HEAVY psycannon)

 

And I wouldn't say the doomglaive is better in combat than a regular venerable dread either. Venerable fist is X2 strength and guaranteed 3 damage. And the doomglaive is only +3 strength and d6 damage. So POTENTIALLY can do more damage, but is less likely to wound, and if it does, the average is around 3 damage per d6 thrown anyway. And you pay more for it. Definitely a cooler model though!

 

Why would I waste CP for a single psycannon, when it already comes pre-built into a vortimer redeemer? Something in that sentence isn't making sense, brother ;p

 

Another thing worth noting that STR 12 seems like overkill frankly, there is nothing on the board that has that kind of toughness, barring Imperial Knights, probably. Call me biased, but I'd probably take the Doomglaive in a melee scenario, just based of that higher damage potential, but venerable for a ranged scenario. But I will concede on your point on the redeemer being better than the Vortimer, even with the psychic onslaught CP. I mean 8 plasma shots is nothing to be scoffed at, being the same efficacy as a plasma weapon. However at this point you might as well take the GMNDK.

 

"Calculations":

 

LR Vortimer-Redeemer: 24 Heavy 8 7 -1 1 with a potential for STR8 AP-1 D2

LR Redeemer:                24 Heavy 12 STR6, AP-1 D1

 

Yeah, not that big of a difference it seems. The only scenario I can see taking the vortimer is if you needed transport, and don't have the points to squeeze in a GMNDK for whatever odd reason. But yeah, point conceded.

[Captain Coolpants]

I meant its pointless wasting cp to buff the twin psycannon with onslaught, not to purchase a psycannon lol.

 

I didn't specify exactly because I don't think I could have meant anything else, especially when I mentioned the cp is better spent buffing the heavy psilancer/psycannon of a GMNDK.

 

 

But I don't think the extra strength is wasted using the power fist over vortimer dread cc weapon. On infantry of course it is. But anything that's toughness 6 is now being wounded on 2s not 3s, and you're a bigger threat to vehicles in combat too.

 

 

This is allll assuming that poor little dreadnought makes combat haha

[Seizeman]

How is a twin psycannon the same as 8 plasma shots? Plasma is S8, AP-3, D2, psycannon is, with onslaught, S8, AP-2, D1. They are not comparable at all.

 

The twin assault cannon is equal or better than the twin psycannon in all situations, and costs 6 points less. There's never a reason to take the vortimer.

[Waking Dreamer]

Originally in early 8Ed, FW announced they would release new rules for their GK units. They showed a picture of the Vortimeer Landraider.

I believe they possibly could have planned to change the Twin-psycannon profile to Twin-Heavy Psyconnons for the vehicle. Similar to how they upgraded the psycannon arm to the heavy psycannon arm for the Doomglaive.

 

This would make sense considering the cost your paying for them is already a little more than 2x heavy psycannons. It depends on how your player group allows house ruling for games. Otherwise, it's still worth the purchase for a GK fan to have GK-specific landraider in your collection. It's the only GK unit forge World still stocks! FW Doomglaives have been OOP for about 2 years now. I think they changed their minds and left the GK landraider non-upgraded / overcosted, because they don't plan on producing anymore in the near future, and don't want a risk the surge in demand for the only GK unit to be able to deliver - 2 Heavy Psycannons on a T8 2+ Save vehicle.

 

Those are my thoughts anyway. Again if your group allows house ruling, why not give that landraider 12 S7 AP-1 D2 shots instead. You're certainly already paying for it at 50 points! Or just play generic and pretend those sweet looking psycannons are mundane assault cannons / heavy bolters like any non-unique GK army Landraider...

[Lemondish]

There's also the potential that the next FW rule update book manages to make these units competitive. 

 

I like the idea of each unit, and they look fantastic. Just wish they were a tad bit more playable. 

[Icosiel]

The psycannons on the Vortimer are roughly the same size as the psycannons wielded by our GKPA, and no where near the size of the heavy psycannon that the GMNDK has. I don't think it is supposed to be a twin heavy psycannon.

[Skywrath]

I meant its pointless wasting cp to buff the twin psycannon with onslaught, not to purchase a psycannon lol.

 

I didn't specify exactly because I don't think I could have meant anything else, especially when I mentioned the cp is better spent buffing the heavy psilancer/psycannon of a GMNDK.

 

 

But I don't think the extra strength is wasted using the power fist over vortimer dread cc weapon. On infantry of course it is. But anything that's toughness 6 is now being wounded on 2s not 3s, and you're a bigger threat to vehicles in combat too.

 

 

This is allll assuming that poor little dreadnought makes combat haha

 

Hehe, this was all hypothetical anyway :) 

 

How is a twin psycannon the same as 8 plasma shots? Plasma is S8, AP-3, D2, psycannon is, with onslaught, S8, AP-2, D1. They are not comparable at all.

 

The twin assault cannon is equal or better than the twin psycannon in all situations, and costs 6 points less. There's never a reason to take the vortimer.

 

Please start looking at the bigger picture and (if I may politely recommend) keep an open mind. First of all I said ROUGHLY comparable (and if I didn't say it, I meant it) to a plasma gun, it's just minus -1, and 1 damage less. Which can make a difference admittedly in a competitive scenario, I admit it's a niche scenario, however you are not giving enough credit to the fact that it's a potential S8 weapon. Like I said earlier, to another person (don't recall his name, I apologise) S8 is practically overkill to units that don't have an invuln save (so intercessors, tacticals, inceptors, etc etc). Even to an opposing Dreadnought S8 is nothing to be scoffed at, and his 5+ (or 6, can't remember) FnP. Secondly, this is talking about an admittedly niche but fun unit, in a niche-at-best scenario, and not talking about the double-paladin bomb list.

 

Originally in early 8Ed, FW announced they would release new rules for their GK units. They showed a picture of the Vortimeer Landraider.

I believe they possibly could have planned to change the Twin-psycannon profile to Twin-Heavy Psyconnons for the vehicle. Similar to how they upgraded the psycannon arm to the heavy psycannon arm for the Doomglaive.

 

This would make sense considering the cost your paying for them is already a little more than 2x heavy psycannons. It depends on how your player group allows house ruling for games. Otherwise, it's still worth the purchase for a GK fan to have GK-specific landraider in your collection. It's the only GK unit forge World still stocks! FW Doomglaives have been OOP for about 2 years now. I think they changed their minds and left the GK landraider non-upgraded / overcosted, because they don't plan on producing anymore in the near future, and don't want a risk the surge in demand for the only GK unit to be able to deliver - 2 Heavy Psycannons on a T8 2+ Save vehicle.

 

Those are my thoughts anyway. Again if your group allows house ruling, why not give that landraider 12 S7 AP-1 D2 shots instead. You're certainly already paying for it at 50 points! Or just play generic and pretend those sweet looking psycannons are mundane assault cannons / heavy bolters like any non-unique GK army Landraider...

 

Admittedly I do like the Land Raider models a lot, especially ones that have psychic shenanigans. I don't particularly see an issue with using a Vortimer-Redeemer on the table-top though - from what I can tell it's not a legends unit, which makes it (even by my conservative GW store standards) a valid choice. Raising eyebrows, definitely, but hey, at that point that's a benefit! 

 

I saw the FW Grey Knight Dreadnought on eBay the other day, and god did my heart sink when I realised it was OOP. I'll keep looking and hopefully I'll catch one, but that is definitely something I would want to include! At.The.First.Opportunity. (my roommate is definitely going to get a heart attack if he reads this).

 

Sorry, but how did you come to the conclusion of the 12 shots? Double psycannons? I'll play them as a Vortimer ;p 

 

There's also the potential that the next FW rule update book manages to make these units competitive. 

 

I like the idea of each unit, and they look fantastic. Just wish they were a tad bit more playable. 

 

How often do the FW books come? That's the first I'm hearing about them. 

[Captain Coolpants]

Ohhh now if they upgraded vortimer razorbacks to have twin heavy psycannons, then I'd imagine we'd see a few of those sneak into lists aha for non competitive play. Edited May 6, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[WAR]

Here is the link to where. It was mentioned almost 2 years ago.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347198-imperial-armor-talons-of-the-emperor/

 

Also I think in the voxcast pod cast with Darius Hinks, he mentions the book may not be released

[Captain Coolpants]

Well that's pretty sad. I forgot about this. The plan is definitely dead in the water then.

[Seizeman]

"Please start looking at the bigger picture and (if I may politely recommend) keep an open mind. First of all I said ROUGHLY comparable (and if I didn't say it, I meant it) to a plasma gun, it's just minus -1, and 1 damage less"

 

That's not roughly comparable, that's almost triple the damage for the plasma. That's like saying a regular marine is pretty much the same as a terminator, it's just -1 wound and -1 save.

[Skywrath]

"Please start looking at the bigger picture and (if I may politely recommend) keep an open mind. First of all I said ROUGHLY comparable (and if I didn't say it, I meant it) to a plasma gun, it's just minus -1, and 1 damage less"

 

That's not roughly comparable, that's almost triple the damage for the plasma. That's like saying a regular marine is pretty much the same as a terminator, it's just -1 wound and -1 save.

 

So let me get this straight. By your own logic, a psycannon that does 1 (potentially two) damage, and a plasma weapon that does 2 (potentially 3) damage is roughly triple the amount of damage? Are you factoring in AP modifiers to come to that conclusion? Because if not, then I'm afraid you are completely wrong.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Skywrath

[Lemondish]

How often do the FW books come? That's the first I'm hearing about them.

Here is the link to where. It was mentioned almost 2 years ago.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347198-imperial-armor-talons-of-the-emperor/

 

Also I think in the voxcast pod cast with Darius Hinks, he mentions the book may not be released

Well, they did announce a new book of FW rules in January of this year, so much much more recent than 2 years ago.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/24/new-rules-incoming-for-forge-world-modelsgw-homepage-post-2fw-homepage-post-3/

 

When I mentioned the next set of FW rules, it is these updated indexes due this year that I'm referring to.

[Seizeman]

 

"Please start looking at the bigger picture and (if I may politely recommend) keep an open mind. First of all I said ROUGHLY comparable (and if I didn't say it, I meant it) to a plasma gun, it's just minus -1, and 1 damage less"

 

That's not roughly comparable, that's almost triple the damage for the plasma. That's like saying a regular marine is pretty much the same as a terminator, it's just -1 wound and -1 save.

 

So let me get this straight. By your own logic, a psycannon that does 1 (potentially two) damage, and a plasma weapon that does 2 (potentially 3) damage is roughly triple the amount of damage? Are you factoring in AP modifiers to come to that conclusion? Because if not, then I'm afraid you are completely wrong.

 

 

Psycannons on a land raider can't have damage 2, since tide of convergence only affects infantry. The difference between AP-1 and AP-3 is a 67% damage increase against 3+ saves, 100% against 2+, which combined with the +100% damage of D2 compared to D1, results in a +233% damage increase using plasma isntead of psycannons (+300% against 2+, +200% against 4+), so more than triple. Even if you waste 2 CP to use psychic onslaught, plasma still does +150% damage compared to the psycannons. So yes, saying that they are pretty much equally effective is just ridiculous.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Seizeman