Reimagined Custodes in game stats - how would you fix them?

[AfroCampbell]

So Custodes are rubbish competitively at the moment. We all know it. 

But more than that they feel weak compared to the power creep, and not really how they are depicted in fluff etc.

Now we know of course that rules do not reflect the fluff (see space marine vs Imperial Guard stats ofc), however I believe that there is a lot that could be done to change up the way Custodes play in order to make them feel more Custodes. 

 

Thoughts 

- all units in army can cap objectives

- all units take a massive points hike. yes up.

 

- T6 and S6 baseline. 4++ baseline Ld 10 baseline, WS and BS 2+ 

- better negative modifiers to hit from range on Vexilla to provide some negation of instant wounds

 

Roll SoS in as cheap troops and to act as Psyker cover with their null field

 

Redefine them as each individual warrior being a lot harder to kill and a lot "killier"

 

 

thoughts ? would it work? How would you make it work?

[Gederas]

So.... Making an already hilariously overcosted army more expensive points-wise? Yeah... No. This is already an army that the most you can get into a 1500 point game is like 15 guys or so.

 

Their stats are fine. It's their wargear that's the issue.... And also the fact that they're a melee-army... In 40k's "Age of Shootmoar" Edition.

 

All I'd change is make their saves 2+/5++(4++ with their battle-forged bonus) with a 5+++ FNP against EVERYTHING and it goes to a 4+++ during the Psychic Phase. Also, making it so that all their non-VEHICLE units (barring Dreadnoughts) can hold objectives, and Dreadnoughts counting as 5 models for Objectives. I do agree on the Ld10 though, or at least they're Fearless. Perhaps Ld9 across the board, and their Leadership CANNOT be modified by outside forces?

 

I'd also make their weapons consistent damage, none of this d3 damage crap. Make all of it D3. Increase the number of shots for their bolters-on-a-stick, and make it so they're always Rapid-firing (yes, EVERYTHING)

 

Also: Make it so that ALL their units have From Golden Light (or equivalent) for Deep Striking, except their Dreadnoughts/Vehicles. Those are the ones that can use the Stratagem instead.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Gederas

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I would go in a slightly different direction than a 5+++, and go with a a rule for aurumite armour of any kind: all damage is halved rounding up.

 

 

A 5+++ could be a stratagem for a squad or something but our core gimmick cant be: plague marines but better.

 

I too think it's wild that our boys are more likely to fail leadership than any space marine squad. It's super weird.

[General Strike]

How competitive are they in 30k? Are there any rules to grab from them?

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

How competitive are they in 30k? Are there any rules to grab from them?

Their competitive nature in 30k stems from how armour saves and leadership works.

 

There Are no modifiers to armour in 30k it's either usable or not. Being said 2+armour is super good since wayyyyyy less than have the weapons out there have a ap of 2 or 1. Barrage weapons sniping individual Custodes is laughable since they can space out is far while remaining in coherency.

 

And leadership actually matters in 30k. If you butcher a good chunk of marines in. Blob the chances are good they run and you wipe the squad.

[General Strike]

Ah, so the translation for that would be invulnerable saves or ignoring AP of some kind in 8th? Like all is dust type rules.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Ah, so the translation for that would be invulnerable saves or ignoring AP of some kind in 8th? Like all is dust type rules.

We have amazing invuls in 40k.

 

The problem is the additional damage weapons deal.

 

In 30k a las cannon shot literally can't kill a full wounds custodes model. In 40k with same toughness and save against the las cannon we can be killed.

 

In 40k though there are so many weapons with multi damage wound profiles that things like the standard primaris rifles shred through us with all the re rolls and buffs around.

 

So in 30k it would take a lot more infantry weapons statistically to drop a Custodes model. Worst case rolling would be 3 wounds individually though where in 40k, many weapons have wounds 2 and three or higher which either takes 2 fails to happen or even 1.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Hellex_The_Thanatar

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Ignore AP1 weapons

8" movement

spears and axes inflict straight 3 damage

5+++ shrugs

new plastic vehicles that are serious damage dealers

decrease in points across the entire range

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I guess the lore really does talk about their ludicrous healing rates so maybe every custodes regains a wound at end of battle round? I do wish SOS would get a perma debuff to enemy units. Like reduce invuls or to hit within a range to represent them suppressing with their mear presence.

 

 

God's oh how I wish axes were times 2 with 3d.

 

That or give us two profiles for certain cc weapons, sweeping or a crushing blow. Altering fighting style depending on opponent.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Hellex_The_Thanatar

[Prot]

Ignore AP1 weapons

8" movement

spears and axes inflict straight 3 damage

5+++ shrugs

new plastic vehicles that are serious damage dealers

decrease in points across the entire range

 

 

Actually I had very similar thoughts to a lot of this. My only concern is recycling rules. 

 

Ignore AP1 is something I definitely think needs to be in there.  My internal debate was ignore AP-1 OR an "All is Dust" type rule, meaning if you only have a damage 1 weapon, the armour save of the Custode goes up by 1.

 

5++ Shrugs is something else I like, but I can't figure out if it should be all the time? Or a Doctrine? Or a power? 

 

Something else I think should be automatic is: 6+ to hit in CC against keyword Chaos or Daemon should be an extra attack. Why that's not built in from inception has always blown me away. That's what these guys were doing most of the time.

 

I think their severe disadvantage in the Psychic phase must be addressed somehow. It's not a small thing, and they have no work around, IE: built in psyker denials (not including a strat) and unlike something like AdMech, there are no cheap troops to throw at a smite fest.

 

When you see the increase in Mortal Wound Damage that the game has brought about in the past year or two: Possessed Bomb, Thousand Sons (PA), Grey Knights (PA), etc... these guys really, really need something better than a 6++ that pertains only to psychic mortal wounds.

 

I'd like to see a Transport (even the Forgeword stuff) get a little better. 

 

The Infantry is 100% lethargic at shooting.  It has no Psychic phase. It has to be more resilient. 

 

Strats need fleshing out bigtime. They should have an uber version of Transhuman Physiology.

 

Finally I'd figure out a way to get them Command Points. The only farming ability is a one time shot from Trajann that is lethargic at best. The army is extremely reliant on a few Strats they just can't use them very often.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

When the codex first dropped it was the new hotness - especially the jetbikes... but unfortunately IK dropped shortly after and everything changed. For awhile new life came about with the beta rules for FW units but competitive tournament players ruined that with point hikes and multiple nerfs - many of which weren’t justified imo. Custodes is one of my favorite factions for this edition but they are unplayable for me mainly due to the point hikes. I really feel like GeeDub dropped the ball here in a big way and so far nothing really has come our way with PA. I think Custodes are in the same boat with Harlequins - they both need some serious help so they are decent. The minis are amazing and that’s a big part of the draw for me. I listen to a lot of the voxcasts on YT and the developers never even mention Custodes. For now we are the proverbial red headed step child.

[Kenzaburo]

I completely agree with you guys, Prot and BlackBlowFly. The fact, that the one faction, that should be insane, powerwise, is hamstringed in the game with almost no meaningful shooting and nothing to do in the psychic phase, is weird at best. I mean, we're locked out of basically 2 phases of the game and only get to participate in melee, really. But to get there, we have to weather the former 2. And even though a single Custodian is tough as nails, you can't afford to loose any because each one is super expensive. That's just not right.

 

In a 1,750 pts list I have like 15-20 bodies on the field, maybe 1 vehicle and 3 bikes and will fall to a lot of concentrated shooting despite the amount of wounds, armour saves and whatnot. Come on - that's the fabled bodyguards of the Emperpr? We gotta do better there. You can't just go: Oh, in the fluff, one custodes can take on 5 marines and beat them to a pulp, so that's what we gonna do. You need to think about how to even get them there and that's where the army currently fails. 

[.Torch.]

Agree with all of the above.

 

I'm hoping that Talons Rules will even us out a bit. But I can't see them changing basic stat lines.

It would be nice if we could play Talons as a mono army, especially as the lore has them going out as expeditionary forces together now.

 

Been struggling to express the problems of mono Custodes, but Kenzaburo's "locked out of two phases" really hits the nail on the head. I can't see Psychic Awakening giving us a lot of shooting, but I'm hoping that the Sisters of Silence will have stronger rules for nullifying the opponent's Psychic phase. At the same time I don't want the Sisters of Silence to make the Custodian guard obsolete.

 

My current 1750pts list is currently 19 models + a tank.

 

HQ

Trajann

Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike

 

TROOPS

Custodian Guard Squad with Spears

Custodian Guard Squad with Spears

Custodian Guard Squad with Sword and Shield

 

ELITES

Vexillus Praetor

Aquilon Terminators with Fist and Lastrum

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Caladius Annihilator

 

EXECUTION FORCE

Vindicaire

Culexus

Eversor

Callidus

 

I tend to get shot off the board a lot. I'd like to be able to play a variation of units without being punished for choosing them. Instead of just a gunline army or bike spam.

[dice4thedicegod]

I’m not too fussed about not having amazing AT shooting, we are a bit of a close ranged force in the fluff... but the basic attacks/weapons need updating (currently marines are better than us - at least as far as having shock assault and thunderhammer and relic weapons that are worth a damn)

 

Definitely need a bit more durability... maybe a 5+++ would be enough

 

I’d also like a stratagem to make terminators more survivable. Either damage reduction (like marine dreadnought get) or something.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Terminators being able to be solo from the start without the unleash the Lions strat would be amazing. Still take them as a single force org but run them independent. That would solve a ton of survivability issues.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Spoke with a friend of mine today with a bit of an inside track... Custodes will be featured in the PA War of the Spider and should see some decent buffs.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Spoke with a friend of mine today with a bit of an inside track... Custodes will be featured in the PA War of the Spider and should see some decent buffs.

 

Well the featured part is known. And the talons of the emperor keyword is pretty much confirmed by GW via their response to Valarian.

 

Here is hoping buffs takes it further than that!

 

I really hope these short stories point to sisters, Custodes and assassins all getting a talons keyword. And more.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

For sure !

[.Torch.]

It's been ages since War of the Spider was revealed and the armies confirmed. Would be nice to get some solid rumors. I'm hoping now that the warehouse has opened up in the UK production will start again soon as well. Just need to get Engine War out of the way first!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I just wanna see Valdor stick a pin in Fabius.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Valdor coming back off the back of birth of the imperium with a confirmed reveal that he is a perpetual would be so disgustingly awesome...so it will never happen.

[.Torch.]

If we are just going to be straight up wish listing...

 

Then I want Valdor in a Plastic Telemon dreadnought, that has the FLY keyword and can only take 4 wounds a phase.

 

(I'm not crazy, you're crazy.)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Like I said I just wanna see Valdor stick a pin in Fabius.

[Captain Idaho]

Here's hoping for some golden goodness. (See what I did there? Actually I'm planning on getting into Shadow Keepers anyway, since the paint scheme is amazing. Plus I painted Guilliman I might just hate gold now..)

 

***

 

I think the main problems are being torrented off the table by massed firepower, much of it being D2. It's the age old Terminators question, though I'd wager a simple +1 wound and maybe shooting Storm Bolters in close combat won't fix it.

 

Custodes need something a little different. Perhaps a flat -1 to wound to all weapons would suffice for survivability? Or ignoring all ranged weapon modifiers less than -3? (So a 2+ against most weapons that are great at hurting Custodes for points)

[BaconCouch]

Custodes need a way to ignore AP, and actually get a means to USE their 2+ armor saves that you pay a fortune in points for. I don't mind people slinging saves at me, if I get that full 2+ save.

Its way too easy to make Custodes rely on that 4++ invuln save currently. Even a stratagem to allow some kind of ignore ap would go a long way. 
For crying out loud, sisters of battle can ignore AP-2, and AP-3 in cover, by the power of words?

Transhuman Physiology would also seem to be a good candidate.

Otherwise on the killyness front, ROF on most guns should double to RF 2, and melee weapons should have more consistency.