Book 9 appears to be on U.S. soil

[Slips]

So are the old Ironwing and Ravenwing Protocol ROWs still in play? 

Nothing that I saw explicitly replaces them or says you can no longer use them.

[Astartes Consul]

There has been a distinct lack of releases in 2020, even considering events, compared to 2019 even. The lots of talk, few kits and stuff that the Road to Thramas marketing had reminds me of PA in 40k.

That doesn’t sound right to be honest.

 

Off the top of my head we have had: Sabre, Interemptors, Cennobium, Qin Xa, Arquitor Bombard, rereleased weapon packs, the Lion and Book 9...all in the last 12 months! And I assume we’ll get Deathwing Companions and Contekar before the years end.

 

Sure that’s more than 2019?

[Lautrec the Embraced]

To put my two cents concerning new Sevatar prowess, I'd like to point out 1 thing that imo set him slightly apart from the rest of beatsticks. He was and still """kinda"""" is inconsistent (I'll explain). This has been characterised mostly by Ap3 - while most Praetors rolled with Ap2 thus at least ensuring some kinda of predictability, with Sev you could've slain any non-EW in a duel or maybe lose to AA sarge with a fist. (I know it's a dice game so anything ispossible, Horus can in theory lose 1v1 vs a Conscript but I think you know what i mean).

 

Now with real Ap2 Sevatar has joined the Big Boys Club of the Heresy, definitely having potential to be amongst the best especially when dueling non-EW but here's a catch - Talent for Murder and Precognition is not given. It's a possibility. Unlike Khârn, Raldoron, Eidolon, Sigismund etc, who usually just need a charge to get to, better or worse, results, Sev needs more if you want to pitch him against guys like Sigi - though obviously even without it, he is amazing against 'normal' praetors, absolute terror for anyone without EW, along with Sigismund and Corswain. Rightfully so according to fluff.

 

Precognition has 75% chance of activating on 2 die only and then goes through Denies - if you only rolled one 4+ then it's more likely it will be stopped by DtW (3.5 rolls on sixes gives 58%). And that's average when you don't have extra psykers. Also it might be problematic against Word Bearers, TSons, Sisters, Daemons and some Psy-wargear. Talent for Murder is a huuuge rule, imo best melee rule in game, but again, it's not 'point and charge'. A bad round of getting shot or cursed overwatch can tip TfM not in your favour.

 

TLDR: Sev is one of the best Duelist (non primarch obviously) in the game but it's not advisable to just assume he'll get his rerolls spot on. If you can't win without them, maybe you shouldn't pick this fight. Just let him blend scrubs without EW

[WrathOfTheLion]

No, go back and look at 2019.

 

So in 2020, we have had revealed:

3 characters - Lion, Qin Xa and Saul Tarvitz

2 Praetors - Word Bearers PA and Terminator praetors
3 DA kits - interemptors, Cenobium and Companions

1 NL kit - Contekar

3 vehicles - Arquitor bombard variants

2 Upgrades - Umbra boltguns and Tartaros power axes

 

For a total of 14 so far announced, which would take at least through October I think.

 

In 2019, there were for Legionnes Astartes - 26 kits:

3 Characters - Sanguinius, Raldoran and Hvarl Redblade

4 BA kits - Angels Tears, Dawnbreaker Cohort, Crimson Paladins and Incaendius dreadnought
4 WS kits - Golden Keshig, Golden Keshig Champion, Ebon Keshig, Kyzagan speeder

1 SW kit - Deathsworn
6 Praetors - WS x2, DA x2 and NL x2

3 Contemptor Dreadnoughts - WS, DA, and UM

3 Leviathan Dreadnoughts - WS, DA and NL
2 Vehicles - Sabre tank, Dreadnought drop pod, could count sabre arsenal as more if counting upgrades.

 

For others:

Mechanicum - total 6:
Moirax (x2)

Moirax upgrades (x2)

Ordinatus Aktaeus

Acastus Knight Asterius

 

Custodes - total 2:

Ares Gunship
Venatari Squad

 

Total of 34 kits at least. So October would be 83% of the year, so at the current rate we would see a bit over half the kits this year as in 2019. Any rate projections would be skewed from ~3 months being shut down, but even so, there's a pretty noticeable dip that was occurring even beforehand.

Edited September 14, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Marshal Rohr]

Forge World stopped making models between March and July.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Might be right there, they did seem to open later than GW on that. Hopefully they end up attempting to increase the pace some to get more of the content originally planned out.

 

We should probably start seeing some more things soon. Maybe there's another reveal coming up?

[Brofist]

Yeah, given the global situation I'm just glad we got what we got, but for sure there's been less stuff and worse support this year

[StrangerOrders]

I'm on the 'grateful for what we got' boat as well, especially the 'spirit' of what we have been getting with alot of upgrade and cosmetic-only things. That really makes me at least happy and I think alot of us can say the same.

 

If we look back, we really should note that pre-Covid the release rate was actually remarkable and very speedy. We were getting new Heresy kits bi-weekly almost and it was only with Nurgle deciding to come gunning for us that things went so haywire. 

 

My personal wager is that we will get the NL Termies whose name I keep forgetting how to spell and the Companions, since we have seen fully painted and displayed models for both at this juncture. Perhaps we might see the return of older kits as well, but I am not expecting alot of those or alot of new stuff.

 

2021 though, that smells very promising to me as a big year for 30k. At the very least I am expecting some more DA, the return of old stuff and mayhaps even more plugging in of the missing models for rules (The Khan, most of the UM, etc). Quite jazzed!

 

Also, is it weird that now knowing they arent great has suddenly made me really want to roll DA?

[Noserenda]

Yar much as i bash the Heresy teams often terrible decisions you cant really blame them for Covid, and FW's production capacity was already a lot less elastic that main GWs, even before socially distancing production which has hurt them a bit too, so i doubt the 2020 release schedule is ever going to catch up to what they planned, however much that actually was.

[b1soul]

@ Lautrec

 

I was under the impression that he was always the number two Astartes duelist character on the tabletop and plenty good at chewing through units. This update just narrows the gap between him and Sig rules-wise.

[Gederas]

Also in the 'grateful for what we got' boat. I'm happy that Book 9 came out and the Lion's reveal AND release was something I was hyped for since he was the last two Primarchs to be released.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Hey guys, we know that dawn breakers are a good unit, right? Hugely undercosted for the kit that they come with and all that.

 

What if I told you glaive-raptors have the same output against 2+/4++ and a dramatic increase against 3+...for 15 points less.

[Gorgoff]

Hey guys, we know that dawn breakers are a good unit, right? Hugely undercosted for the kit that they come with and all that.

 

What if I told you glaive-raptors have the same output against 2+/4++ and a dramatic increase against 3+...for 15 points less.

I'd say: SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY.

[Indefragable]

Great long write-up @Slips
 

Just got the book today and haven’t yet touched the fluff, but devoured the rules. 
 

For posterity and the burning desire to talk to some one, since I’m the only person I know that got it, here’s my hot take:

 

Hidden Content

DA:

-1st thought is they removed the condition that gave your opponent free VP if something something 

 

-my inner 12 year old loves plasma flamers, especially if they can re-roll Overwatch

 

-the ability to layer Scions of wings + Scions if heka whatnot seems potent....but costed appropriately? From a design perspective I like the idea of cool stuff that is expensive: no one says you have to take it, and if you want one dude to cost as much as 3x other squads, that’s on you <cough>Primarchs<cough>.

 

-.....question is whether or not the above is worth it. I am deliberately not thinking about it too much so I can sleep, but I’m really keen to see how blend wings, with a Scion of Deathwing in a Stormwing RoW, etc...I see potential for some crazy combos.....but my gut also says that like so many things GW/HH/7th Ed Rukeyser, there will be some real clunkers and some insane good ones and little in between

-Dreadwing RoW is Death Guard-Lite. I think this one is pretty cool....lots of potential but not over the top. Spamming plasma troops: what’s not to love?

 

-Ironwing redux: this one see,a quite different then I recall....and not as flashy

 

-Stormwing RoW is I think my fav. It’s fun and finally there’s a RoW that focuses on bricks of Tacticals and such (I have a custom”Tactical Supremacy” RoW floating around on here. Something cool about being able to put a Centurion in every squad.

 

-Ravenwing redux: again, I know it’s different but too lazy to go back and look at how. I have repressed the memories of facing a RW-all-acid-shells-and-melta-bombs jetbike list

-Deathwing RoW: interesting one. I can see medics being spammed for this. I want to like it, but seeing how the various Scion upgrades stack with this will be the final judge

 

-Firewing: play like better BA <grumble grumble>. Cool though

 

-Interemptors: awesome

 

-Cenobites: where are the chains? Anyways DA just had to have a termie unit so their great great great great great great great great grandkids would be proud. The fact they all can get Scions of Heckville buffs is quite interesting. Big swords.

 

-Companions: correct me if I am wrong, but this is the first time I recall a unit with a fancy (and very good looking) model kit that you are only allowed to bring one of in a game. So they can only be taken as essentially a Command Squad for a Praetor......which means you are actively discouraged from buying more than 2x (2x5 dudes for a single 10man unit) boxes ever. I’m surprised by that from a sales perspective. I kinda........like it?

 

-Excindio bit: lol ng is great. So Grimdark. It reminds me of War Elephants from Rome: Total War where they mess anything in the game up, but can tweak out at any time and you have to hit the kill switch before they rampage through your own lines. I kinda love it. I don’t know ad mech stuff...,hows 60x melta bombs worth of price compare to that stuff?

 

-Corswain: the new big cheese? Very solid character, second to -ing Sigismund* in terms of challenges? He’s 2+/3++ in challenges, I6 Instant Death’ing AP1....and does the DA Legion rules apply making him WS8(!!!)?
 

-Madruk: i will have to go back since I skipped over him form the preview on W-C

 

-The Lion: this is admittedly knee-jerk.......but is he the best Primarch? Wow. Holy . He legit shuts down almost every other brother’s shtick...

Hidden Content

-always hitting on 4+ no matter what invalidates Russ, Horus, Sanguinius, and Angron 

-stasis grenades invalidates Fulgrim, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus/anyone else whose shtick is trying to sneak a Concussive blow in at initiative

-stasis grenades invalidate Curze, Corax, and Sangy** in Angel’s Wrath as not only do they make it that much harder for a successful Hit&Run roll, but  charge back in they lose that Initiative bonus again

 

...funnily enough it seems like the one guy who does well against him is Khan who always strikes first

 

....while getting guaranteed 8” charges, a re-roll to one failed invuln save a phase. Again I admit I need more time to absorb this, but first thoughts are wow!

 

NL: 

 

-I need more time to absorb the new RoWs but they seem good and fluffy while requiring effort to get the most out of them. Definite Intermediate skill level tools.

 

-Raptor rework is cool. <glowers at ability for them to re-roll charges> 

 

-Nakrid Thule is interesting. I think he pairs with Talent for Murder quite well, since you want to tie things up, kill a few dudes, then next found go to town. He seems like a counter to Fearless units.

 

-Sevatsr rework: wow does that make him good. I6 Instant Death AP2 is bonkers. Really only Siggy can reliably stand up to that b/c of EW.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: this is deliberately a not take; just initial thoughts without really applying too ,UCB analysis. That usually comes later after some things stew for a bit.

 

Need to think on stuff more, but my initial thought is DA are quite strong? I know the sentiment in this thread seems to be the opposite, but what I see is a very large toolbox for players to play with, and my experience is the really good ones eat this stuff up and come out with some interesting combos. 
 

* and **

Hidden Content

*Sigismund as-written is one of my biggest pet peeves in the game. use be the best duellist, don’t get me wrong, but what annoys me is how he not only gets the best rules in the game, not only does he get all of them, but he gets them when no one else does. I mean, other then Nemean Reaver and Primarchs he is the only dude to get EW, right? Spread the love a bit. 
With Sev’s update he is now feeling at least like he’s in that vaunted league that the Big Four are supposed to be....though Corswain May be #2 now due to his 3++. I’d really like to see Raldoron and Abaddon tweaked to be in that same league as Siggy and Sev as they are supposed to be. Abaddon especially feels so meh. If anyone deserves Eternal Warrior, it’s him.

 

**Im kinda shocked just how much of a hard-counter the Lion Sanguinius. Sangy’s shtick as-written is a crazy first turn of combat at WS9 and the Lion flat out takes that away.

 

Second disclaimer: I’m a huge BA fanboy, and though I try not to let that affect my impartiality, I still have to at least point things out.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: spelling

Edited September 15, 2020 by Indefragable

[Marshal Rohr]

Sigismund probably won’t keep Eternal Warrior if Fists get a redux (in exchange for a points drop). He might get EW-lite or something, but it’s the biggest and most consistent character complaint now that Sev has been reasonably buffed.

 

 

As I go through the Rites I’m really struggling to make lists. Dreadwing with barebones destroyers as comp troops in rhinos doesn’t break the bank, but all the difficult terrain means you’ve gotta put a lot of gear on the rhinos to get them moving (also not to mention JP destroyers would be fun). Stormwing is right up my alley and I made a cool list that maxes out troops slots to fit 5 Contemptors and 3 leviathans with 20 terminators which DoNt get me wrong would be great for themes but that’s like 6000 points for only 2 units that can reasonable damage tanks. I had been leaning heavily on Ironwing staying the same when I was working out my characters, but the loss of exterminators on Rhino rush tacticals kind of kills the enthusiasm (not to mention if you don’t play Against a Tank Heavy list you’re paying the scion tax for no benefits). Ravenwing lost a lot of flavor but fit into an allied detachment fairly easy so that’s not the worst thing in the world. Totally uninterested in Firewing and Deathwing, sadly as Firewing is too ‘tacticool’ for my personal tastes and what’s the point of playing Heresy if I’m gonna play the Deathwing

 

Conspiracy Time: each Rite of War has a very odd line at the end of the restrictions stating they can’t be joined by independent characters not from the detachment which is unnecessarily redundant because all six preclude you from taking allies (ie, there’s no option to join any characters to the units in the primary detachment anyway). This is making me wonder if we are going to get an overhaul to the way the Age of Darkness detachments work in the near future allowing you to mix and match detachments like in 40K.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Gorgoff]

This is making me wonder if we are going to get an overhaul to the way the Age of Darkness detachments work in the near future allowing you to mix and match detachments like in 40K.

Since that is one of the most god-aweful aspects of a game full of god-aweful rules which is 40k I hope you are wrong.

[Marshal Rohr]

Detachments are cool, it’s Strategems and Command Points that make everything suck. Being able to take my Stone Gauntlet and Armored Breakthrough would be awesome.

[b1soul]

Don't Custodes Tribunes also have EW, as can Sallies Praetors?

 

At the SM level, I think it's fine for EW to be limited to Sig, the Nemean, and Sallies Praetors. Sig is not a league above the rest, but he's a cut above. His combination of rules reflects that.

[Astartes Consul]

Don't Custodes Tribunes also have EW, as can Sallies Praetors?

 

At the SM level, I think it's fine for EW to be limited to Sig, the Nemean, and Sallies Praetors. Sig is not a league above the rest, but he's a cut above. His combination of rules reflects that.

 

And he's destined to live for 1,000 years just to spite everyone...

[Ficinus]

Marshal Rohr, you said it yourself that Ravenwing fit easily into an allied detachment, so that's what the no characters from other detachments is about: if you take the Rite of War as an allied detachment, characters from the main detachment can't join its units.

[Marshal Loss]

Sigismund probably won’t keep Eternal Warrior if Fists get a redux (in exchange for a points drop). He might get EW-lite or something, but it’s the biggest and most consistent character complaint now that Sev has been reasonably buffed.

Anuj is an Imperial Fist player who has consistently and vociferously defended Sigismund's current rules in public forums on FB, even recently. I would expect no such change

[Indefragable]

 

 

Sigismund probably won’t keep Eternal Warrior if Fists get a redux (in exchange for a points drop). He might get EW-lite or something, but it’s the biggest and most consistent character complaint now that Sev has been reasonably buffed.

Anuj is an Imperial Fist player who has consistently and vociferously defended Sigismund's current rules in public forums on FB, even recently. I would expect no such change

...which, imho is ok...if others get close to what he has. Right now, only (new and improved) Sev and Corswain come remotely close. He is not a cut above, he is a league above. Edited September 15, 2020 by Indefragable

[SkimaskMohawk]

Sigismund is a very good character killer and resilient with his 4 wounds and EW. But he doesn't support your army. He struggle to leverage his 4 attacks outside of a challenge.

 

He's honestly...bad for his points.

[Indefragable]

Sigismund is a very good character killer and resilient with his 4 wounds and EW. But he doesn't support your army. He struggle to leverage his 4 attacks outside of a challenge.

 

He's honestly...bad for his points.

...........................but that’s not what you use him for. You use him to murderize scary models.

 

It’s like saying your Ford F-350 super duty is bad at delivering pizzas b/c of the bad gas mileage and the fact it doesn’t fit into parking spaces....yea no kidding....that’s not what you use it for.

[Scammel]

Sigismund is excellent against a very narrow range of units, pays heavily for that ability, and falls short of a similarly-priced Praetor in several respects. He kicks everyone else's golden boys in the teeth, and it's a very fair niche which he pays for in both price and opportunity cost.

 

It's a little rich in the context of a wider conversation about the Night Lords and Fists, given the latter have a whopping two non-Primarch characters, a unique unit consisting of an existing Troops choice but with access to power weapons, and a single reasonable-in-the-context-of-a-fun-game Rite of War (lol at Hammerfall).