Best variant of Terminator for Deathwing?

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

So, I'm looking at doing a Dark Angels army, so I'll definitely be doing Deathwing, no question. I intend to do one squad of Deathwing Knights and a Deathwing Command Squad (as in, the Apothecary, Ancient, Champion, Master and one spare heavy weapon guy) at the very least, but I'm looking at doing a full Vanguard Detachment with a Terminator Master, so I'm looking for other options. I figure that since Deathwing Knights are the best of the best, it's unreasonable to give them more than one squad in my army. Do I wanna pick up a Dark Vengeance Termie squad? Maybe the multi-part Deathwing Terminators and build 'em as regular Terminators with a plasma cannon? Or maybe one of the Horus Heresy marks? What's your thoughts, lads?

[eternal_warrior12]

I run a 10man unit of standard deathwing. It’s the space marine hero’s set to be specific. So it’s a combo of shooty and smashy. It works great. Fortress of shields and fury of the first stratagems are my main uses.

 

Cataphractii are my favorite looking terminators, and while a little more durable with the 4++ they are limited on their weapon load outs and man are they slow. If you fail the deep strike charge you will literally be running to keep up.

 

I’ve won many games with my Deathwing because they hit hard, can be really survivable if you use terrain and other things to protect them and.... no one expects them in 8th Ed. They expect primaris or some other gimmick. I’ve had a freaking blast playing Deathwing. Welcome to the Rock!

[G8Keeper]

Just so you don't go off and assemble that command squad too hastily, they are no longer a squad. Each character that was in it is now a separate Elites choice.

 

As for which models to use, it's really a personal choice. If playing non-competitively, as long as you can easily tell what each mini is equipped with, or explain it, then you're fine.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

I get a lot of joy out of my cataphractii squads. I won’t say they’re the most competitive, but as long as you’re reasonable with your expectations with them they can be good workhorses. The trick, I’ve found, is to not expect the charge - deep strike them in cover to unload a bunch of stormbolter shots from up to 24” away that will then prove a headache for the enemy to dislodge, both because of a 1+/4++ and because hopefully you put them in a spot that is inconvenient for the enemy to deal with (out of LOS of a few key units etc). Mine are armed with stormbolter/powerfists, but if I could build them again I’d go stormbolter/lightning claw - that way if you do need them to fight something off or occasionally go for a charge you get those rerolls to wound which is nice

[ChaplainNemiel]

good question brother! 

 

As noted, DW knights are clearly the strongest terminator units for us right now so that is a must include.

 

Once the shops open back up I'm really itching to try out a squad of 10 regular, shooty DW. My favourite is just the standard stormbolter and powerfirst.

I know the amount of command points is absurd with 3CP for a 10 man squad but "Deathwing Assault" is something I look forward to testing.

 

10 DW termies with 2x cyclone missile launchers, allowing the heavy weapons to keep their storm bolters... That would be 80 AP -1 storm bolter shots (coming in turn 2) and 8 krak missiles.  Add Belial or a captain for re-rolls and I think that would do a lot of damage - especially considering most players aren't expecting to face terminators. 

 

Then the question remains - once you do your turn 2 deep strike devastation, how do you keep them alive? how do you keep them effective with their limited mobility. 

I think we usually want to drop a big group like that in a more central location to maximize their 24 inch range. 

 

An ancient seems to be an autoinclude if you're taking any noticeable number of DW.

 

Another model to consider is the RW dark shroud to sit with your terminators once they land. 

[Gederas]

I get a lot of joy out of my cataphractii squads. I won’t say they’re the most competitive, but as long as you’re reasonable with your expectations with them they can be good workhorses. The trick, I’ve found, is to not expect the charge - deep strike them in cover to unload a bunch of stormbolter shots from up to 24” away that will then prove a headache for the enemy to dislodge, both because of a 1+/4++ and because hopefully you put them in a spot that is inconvenient for the enemy to deal with (out of LOS of a few key units etc). Mine are armed with stormbolter/powerfists, but if I could build them again I’d go stormbolter/lightning claw - that way if you do need them to fight something off or occasionally go for a charge you get those rerolls to wound which is nice

This is how I run my Cataphractii as well, though I have two squads currently. The "shooty" squad is all Combi-Bolter+Lightning Claws, barring two Chainfists (just in case someone tries to be cheeky), with one of the chainfists having the Heavy Flamer (again, just in case someone tries to be cheeky). The "stabby" squad is dual Lightning Fists.

[The Neverborn]

How would you like a pre-parinted army - http://bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_16324/gallery_54638_16324_1072492.jpg ;)

 

Ok so some things you should know, Deathwing is not a competitive build and you'll only win games in which you're much more skilled than you opponent.

 

The answer is you need a mixture.

 

Knights and Assault only get a decent response in Mid-field and front line.

 

for Back lines use Dreadnoughts. - Always use venerable 

 

The Shooty terminators are still required as you need some volume ranged threat. 

 

Make sure you take a banner and a apothecary too. 

 

As a rule of tumb 1 land raider with 5 terminators, is also more useful than 10 terminators. 

 

On the Subject of Land Raiders - Crusader is king.

 

Azreal is also the best HQ choice, Librarians also work quite well, if nothing else than you can cast psyhic powers for VPs. And you'll need to run a VP orientated army.

 

Just some of my cliff notes from 10+ years of the Deathwing.

[Grand Master Raziel]

My theory-crafting suggests if you want to do Deathwing Assault, a 10-man squad with 3 THSS Termies, 2 of them carrying cyclone missile launchers is the way to go. At least, on the surface, you get the best of both worlds. You're not dropping much in firepower, and the squad has access to Fortress of Shields.

[The Neverborn]

I can see why you might see that but..

 

I already know what happens - got the T-shirt and it's covered in blood, and not the good kind. You drop your 10 models. You're opponent knows that's probably at least 1/3 of your army.

 

If he has a start that allows him to shoot them, he will, you'll probably loose 25% or 33% of the squad. Your cyclones might take some wounds off something, but are unlikely to put it down. You have the option of spend CP to shoot again if you do and you plan to use fortress of sheilds you're done with CP for the game pretty much.

 

You might get a lucky charge off but if so only at a screen, maybe you took a character to help you but still odds are you won't make it.

 

In summary, showing your hand like that before deploying is probably not going to work out well for you.

[ChaplainNemiel]

good points mentioned.

 

I think right now we have no choice but to field a battalion and maybe a +1 specialist detachment at most.
We need to fork up the points for some scouts or tacticals to fill out troop slots. 

 

8-9 CP I think is sufficient for us to make use of strategems such as DW Assault. 

 

a DW only army isn't competitive - but can be a very solid part of a multi-wing list. 

[Darmor]

Has anyone experience with Tartaros termies?
I've used them a couple of times, with DWA they were a very fluffy including - dropped 2nd turn and killed one enemy unit, then all the opponent's firepower was for them.

But this was before RotD.

Has anything changed for them?

[The Neverborn]

good points mentioned.

 

I think right now we have no choice but to field a battalion and maybe a +1 specialist detachment at most.

We need to fork up the points for some scouts or tacticals to fill out troop slots. 

 

8-9 CP I think is sufficient for us to make use of strategems such as DW Assault. 

 

a DW only army isn't competitive - but can be a very solid part of a multi-wing list. 

 

 

The last point is Key,

 

My interpretation of someone "Playing Deathwing" means you take the following from the DA book

 

Azreal

Characters in Terminator Amour

Terminators (all types)

Dreadnoughts

Land Raiders (all types)

 

-That's all, if you wanted to go really  hardcore you'd also need to use the Deathwing Upgrade strat too, but i don't think that's required. 

 

That's all if you are just taking one or more of the above then that's a different matter. The idea of playing Deathwing, comes from the 3rd Edition Sup Dex, where if you took only the above (Excluding Azreal) your Terminators counted as whatever you wanted (Excluding HQ) - usually Troops. This is one of the original specialist Detachments. It may actually go back to 2nd, but I wasn't playing Deathwing then.

 

Since then GW has sort of Killed off "Deathwing" lists in the 7th Edition unless you were playing unbound it became literally impossible or an piratical Auto-lose.

 

My hope is they bring back the "True Deathwing" one day

 

-Remember the tale of Two-Heads-Talking!

Edited May 3, 2020 by Battle Brother Abderus

[Skywrath]

Deathwing Knights are the way to go, however Terminators (especially with a cyclone-launcher) can be pretty damn fun to play. In a competitive scenario, the terminators get outshined by boltstorm aggressors or inceptors (both plasma or boltstorm ones - it's been my experience), however the Knights can become the win condition in your list with combined assault (if you have a ravenwing component in your list). 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[ChaplainNemiel]

 

good points mentioned.

 

I think right now we have no choice but to field a battalion and maybe a +1 specialist detachment at most.

We need to fork up the points for some scouts or tacticals to fill out troop slots. 

 

8-9 CP I think is sufficient for us to make use of strategems such as DW Assault. 

 

a DW only army isn't competitive - but can be a very solid part of a multi-wing list. 

 

 

The last point is Key,

 

My interpretation of someone "Playing Deathwing" means you take the following from the DA book

 

Azreal

Characters in Terminator Amour

Terminators (all types)

Dreadnoughts

Land Raiders (all types)

 

-That's all, if you wanted to go really  hardcore you'd also need to use the Deathwing Upgrade strat too, but i don't think that's required. 

 

That's all if you are just taking one or more of the above then that's a different matter. The idea of playing Deathwing, comes from the 3rd Edition Sup Dex, where if you took only the above (Excluding Azreal) your Terminators counted as whatever you wanted (Excluding HQ) - usually Troops. This is one of the original specialist Detachments. It may actually go back to 2nd, but I wasn't playing Deathwing then.

 

Since then GW has sort of Killed off "Deathwing" lists in the 7th Edition unless you were playing unbound it became literally impossible or an piratical Auto-lose.

 

My hope is they bring back the "True Deathwing" one day

 

-Remember the tale of Two-Heads-Talking!

 

 

The problem I find with Azrael is where do you guys suggest to use him in a DW heavy list which will probably be heavily concentrated midtable?

I've always felt that Azzy works best in more a backfield gunline or perhaps in a drop pod with some company vets. 

 

I wish Azrael could teleport like he does in the lore! that would really improve DW deep striking with his 4++  and additional CP and CP farming ability.

 

I loved the old 6th edition DW lists with Azrael or Belial allowing DW as troops - but as we all know, they were even less competitive at that time than they are today. 

 

Am I the only one left who still sees value using Belial?  

[The Neverborn]

This would be on if you are playing a Deathwing army or using Terminators in a Dark Angel's list. I was hoping from the context it would be clear that I was talking about the former.

So if you just want to use Terminators, well go ahead. They are a sub optimal choice so I'd suggest using no more than 5 or 2 squads of 5 at most.

If you want to use a Deathwing army then it's a different world.

Somewhere inbetween depends on how far you slant to each side.

Which ever way, Deathwing Terminators need to be used as Rapier not a sledgehammer. Which is unfluffy and counter intuitive.

Forget the idea of them smashing through a front line, shots pinging off them. It's not going to happen. They play more like something with the durability of Dark Eldar codex, but with the numerosey of the Costodes Codex and the manoeuvrability of the Death Guard Codex.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Battle Brother Abderus