Ancient worth it?

[Trollbeard]

Hey guys, like the title says, is the ancient worth it? I just bought a box of terminators/paladins and am building a couple paladins and a librarian, just wondering if I should build a second apothecary or an ancient??

 

Thanks In advance!

[Skywrath]

Not sure if my opinion means much, but I see the ancient having a niche place (at least in my army). Strike Squads/Purifiers with falchions with the ancient on top of that can prove to be quite interesting. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Skywrath

[Captain Coolpants]

This varies depending of your list I feel. If you're heavy in terminators or paladins. Then absolutely go for the apothecary.

 

If your list is mostly single wound models, then you'd probably rather the extra attacks the sacred banner provide from the ancient. If you do get the ancient, and you have some spare points, you should always go for paladin ancient. Because they're only really useful in or near combat, so may as well upgrade to paladin to hit better and attack more.

 

 

Another spin, if you're just looking for a beatstick character. An apothecary with hammer is pretty damn good! And cheaper than the cheapest ancient load out. As far as im aware he can heal himself too, not just other units. That definitely helps a little bit with surviving long enough to actually reach combat.

[Seizeman]

The ancients are really ineffective units. Their aura, being only useful in melee, is hard to use because units often distance from one another when you start charging. If you want extra attacks, is generally more useful to pick something like an apothecary with a hammer, like Coolpants says, which is cheaper, can heal and is more reliable and versatile.

 

What definitely kills the ancient are the augurium scrolls. If you really want a damage aura, you can give the scrolls to any of your characters and save the 103 points the ancient cost. The augurium scrolls aura gives more extra hits than the ancient's aura does (except to single attack units) and also affects dreadknights (you can even give it to the GMNDK itself).

[Trollbeard]

Thanks for the replies guys! I think I’ll build the second apothecary!

[Seizeman]

Thanks for the replies guys! I think I’ll build the second apothecary!

 

You should build a second librarian before you build a second apothecary. Competitive lists use two librarians, but it's almost impossible to fit a second apothecary in a competitive list. If you have two librarians already, having more apothecaries available is always nice (for big games).

 

If you don't think you are going to play 2500+ points games and your resources are limited, I'd still build the ancient (after the two librarians and the first apothecary). It doesn't cost you much, and having to buy a full box for just a model if GW decides to buff him can be inconvenient.

[Skywrath]

 

Thanks for the replies guys! I think I’ll build the second apothecary!

 

You should build a second librarian before you build a second apothecary. Competitive lists use two librarians, but it's almost impossible to fit a second apothecary in a competitive list. If you have two librarians already, having more apothecaries available is always nice (for big games).

 

If you don't think you are going to play 2500+ points games and your resources are limited, I'd still build the ancient (after the two librarians and the first apothecary). It doesn't cost you much, and having to buy a full box for just a model if GW decides to buff him can be inconvenient.

 

I don't think he can build a second librarian from the parts a paladin/terminator box offers. It wouldn't even pass as something even remotely close to resembling a librarian, barring the terminator armor/warding stave. Not to mention, if you have Voldus and one librarian, isn't having a third one pointless?

 

However, I do agree with his perspective that 2 apothecaries seems redundant - you'd best be building him as another paladin, or an ancient, in the case they become good again (that's what I'll be building my 3rd model in that box as).. 

 

Side-note, does anyone find it ironic that out of all SM chapters we are the only ones that have an ancient that doesn't grant us FnP/the ability to fight again once before dying? I found that odd, but it does make sense granted how strong GK are at the moment, however I refuse to believe the developers saw that in response to that quote.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Skywrath

[Seizeman]

You don't have enough staves for everything you want with just the terminator box, but should have enough spare ones from the strike squad boxes.

 

There's nothing special to identify the regular marine model as a librarian that a grey knight can't have. You have the tabard, you have the back banner with a book, you have the psychic hood, you have all the seals, relics, books, skulls and any extra detail you want to add. It looks like a librarian as much as the regular model, if not more, but, more importantly, it looks like a grey knight. I build my librarians that way and I would not consider having one of those plain looking and deformed guys in their place.

 

Having a librarian on top of Voldus is not pointless. Without him, you don't have enough slots for your dominus powers and you don't have the nullifier matrix, which is quite important. Also, you are probably not using Voldus anyway, because Draigo is better.

[Skywrath]

You don't have enough staves for everything you want with just the terminator box, but should have enough spare ones from the strike squad boxes.

 

There's nothing special to identify the regular marine model as a librarian that a grey knight can't have. You have the tabard, you have the back banner with a book, you have the psychic hood, you have all the seals, relics, books, skulls and any extra detail you want to add. It looks like a librarian as much as the regular model, if not more, but, more importantly, it looks like a grey knight. I build my librarians that way and I would not consider having one of those plain looking and deformed guys in their place.

 

Having a librarian on top of Voldus is not pointless. Without him, you don't have enough slots for your dominus powers and you don't have the nullifier matrix, which is quite important. Also, you are probably not using Voldus anyway, because Draigo is better.

 

I mean if I were building this, I'd make sure my librarian has a psychic hood/tabard/stave/terminator armor at least. If any of those components were missing from my "librarian" in my local GW store, they probably would ask me to use him as another unit, just based of that fact. I don't think the strike squad/paladin box has a psychic hood though, which arguably is the needed component to sell that idea. But I think your GW store is more lenient when it comes to these things. Fully agree with you on the plain-looking and deformed guys bit.

 

I was saying that having Voldus and a librarian on top of a 2nd librarian (Voldus + Librarian + Librarian, so 3) is overkill. I'd expect most serious GK players to have at least both.

 

But the elephant in the room here is why Draigo is better? In melee, for sure, but in psychic categories, Voldus can know 4 abilities with Lore Master, compared to Draigo's 2 abilities. Even in melee he gives Draigo a run for his money - I just find that claim odd.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Skywrath

[Trollbeard]

I have one librarian also, and in my original post I did say I was going build a 2nd librarian.

 

I have 8 paladins currently, I want another psycannon model, and a paragon with hammer.

 

So with the two last models I was thinking another apothecary/ ancient, or bro captain.

[Skywrath]

If you don't have a brother-captain already , then you really should build one. Those extended smites are crucial. Contrary to the Librarian's dillema, there are a lot of good parts you can use in the paladin boxes to build a pretty nice looking brother-captain. 

 

I'm planning to do the same (and upload pictures) on this tuesday. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Skywrath

[Seizeman]

All grey knights have psychic hoods, according to the lore. That's what that weird thing on top of their heads is.

 

Yes, I understood what you were saying, Voldus plus one librarian is not enough. Not enough powers, not enough relics.

 

Voldus "can't" have 4 powers because you need your warlord trait for "first to the fry" (and he can only cast 3 of them anyway). Draigo is better because his aura is significantly more powerful and, more importantly, he's twice as durable as Voldus is.

 

 

I have one librarian also, and in my original post I did say I was going build a 2nd librarian.

 

You didn't. Anyway, any model with terminator can be a brother captain if you declare him as a brother captain. Of course, you want to build a specific model for him, with all the cool bits and a nice painting to make him different and cooler, but if you are on a budget, it's not a priority to build a model specifically for him. A brother-captain is mandatory for any competitive Grey knight list, that's for sure. If you already have the two librarians and the apothecary, I'd build the brother captain instead of the second apothecary or the ancient.

[Skywrath]

All grey knights have psychic hoods, according to the lore. That's what that weird thing on top of their heads is.

 

Yes, I understood what you were saying, Voldus plus one librarian is not enough. Not enough powers, not enough relics.

 

Voldus "can't" have 4 powers because you need your warlord trait for "first to the fry" (and he can only cast 3 of them anyway). Draigo is better because his aura is significantly more powerful and, more importantly, he's twice as durable as Voldus is. 

 

I'm sorry, what? I disagree strongly with you on that statement. For starters, (well according to Battle-Scribe) Voldus can only know the Lore Master trait, so there goes that idea. Perhaps you mean another unit with a warlord trait? Then if so then yes, I guess I see your logic, but in any non-paladin bomb lists, you can get away with using Hero of the Chapter for -1CP. Having Voldus with 4 abilities in either dominus or sanctic discipline is just too good to pass up. Not to mention, the original list didn't even run First into the Fray, mostly because there was another way of getting those paladins in combat, I suspect?

 

Secondly, why would you need 3 librarians, when you would want Voldus/BC/Librarian and maybe Draigo/Chaplain? Not to mention the other troops that can also generate psychic powers. By all the other GK on this forum Draigo is a niche choice at best, from what I read. I'm not saying he is a bad unit, I'm just saying a Chaplain would be a better option. Especially consider the fact that you are clearly referencing the double paladin-bomb in your responses, and that original list didn't run Draigo at all, again from what I seen.  

 

Also what aura? If you are talking about the reroll aura, Voldus has that too. 

 

Here is the original Double Paladin list for reference:

 

Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [39 PL, 486pts, 2CP] ++

 

No Force Org Slot [2CP] +

 

Armoury of Titan [-1CP]: 1 Additional Relic [-1CP]

 

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

 

Pre Game Enforcement

 

HQ [18 PL, 216pts] +

 

Brother-Captain [9 PL, 113pts]: Blade of the Forsworn, Edict Imperator, Storm Bolter [2pts]

 

- Nemesis Force Sword [1pts]: Nemesis Force Sword [1pts]

 

Librarian [9 PL, 103pts]: Empyrean Domination, Sanctic Shard, Storm Bolter [2pts], Warp Shaping

 

- Nemesis Warding Stave [1pts]: Nemesis Warding Stave [1pts]

 

Troops [21 PL, 270pts] +

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 90pts]: Gate of Infinity

 

- 4x Grey Knight (Falchions) [72pts]: 8x Nemesis Falchion [8pts], 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

 

Grey Knight Justicar [18pts]: Storm bolter [2pts]

 

- Nemesis Falchion [2pts]: 2x Nemesis Falchion [2pts]

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 90pts]: Gate of Infinity

 

- 4x Grey Knight (Falchions) [72pts]: 8x Nemesis Falchion [8pts], 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

 

Grey Knight Justicar [18pts]: Storm bolter [2pts]

 

- Nemesis Falchion [2pts]: 2x Nemesis Falchion [2pts]

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 90pts]: Gate of Infinity

 

- 4x Grey Knight (Falchions) [72pts]: 8x Nemesis Falchion [8pts], 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

 

Grey Knight Justicar [18pts]: Storm bolter [2pts]

 

- Nemesis Falchion [2pts]: 2x Nemesis Falchion [2pts]

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [108 PL, 1,506pts] ++

 

HQ [18 PL, 260pts] +

 

Chaplain [8 PL, 107pts]: 3. Intonement for Guidance, 6. Invocation of Focus, Astral Aim, Storm bolter [2pts]

 

Grand Master Voldus [10 PL, 153pts]: 6: Lore Master, Armoured Resilience, Ethereal Manipulation, Gate of Infinity, Inner Fire, Warlord

 

Troops [21 PL, 270pts] +

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 90pts]: Vortex of Doom

 

- 4x Grey Knight (Falchions) [72pts]: 8x Nemesis Falchion [8pts], 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

 

Grey Knight Justicar [18pts]: Storm bolter [2pts]

 

- Nemesis Falchion [2pts]: 2x Nemesis Falchion [2pts]

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 90pts]: Vortex of Doom

 

- 4x Grey Knight (Falchions) [72pts]: 8x Nemesis Falchion [8pts], 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

 

Grey Knight Justicar [18pts]: Storm bolter [2pts]

 

- Nemesis Falchion [2pts]: 2x Nemesis Falchion [2pts]

 

- Strike Squad [7 PL, 90pts]: Vortex of Doom

 

4x Grey Knight (Falchions) [72pts]: 8x Nemesis Falchion [8pts], 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

 

Grey Knight Justicar [18pts]: Storm bolter [2pts]

 

- Nemesis Falchion [2pts]: 2x Nemesis Falchion [2pts]

 

Elites [69 PL, 976pts] +

 

Apothecary [5 PL, 76pts]: Sanctuary

 

- Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]: Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]

 

Paladin Squad [32 PL, 440pts]: Hammerhand

 

- 9x Paladin (Halberd) [396pts]: 9x Nemesis Force Halberd [9pts], 9x Storm Bolter [18pts]

 

Paragon [44pts]: Storm Bolter [2pts]

 

- Nemesis Warding Stave [1pts]: Nemesis Warding Stave [1pts]

 

Paladin Squad [32 PL, 460pts]: Hammerhand

 

5x Paladin (Halberd) [220pts]: 5x Nemesis Force Halberd [5pts], 5x Storm Bolter [10pts]

 

Paladin (Psycannon) [49pts]: Psycannon (Terminator) [7pts]

 

- Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]: Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]

 

Paladin (Psycannon) [49pts]: Psycannon (Terminator) [7pts]

 

- Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]: Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]

 

Paladin (Psycannon) [49pts]: Psycannon (Terminator) [7pts]

 

- Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]: Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]

 

Paladin (Psycannon) [49pts]: Psycannon (Terminator) [7pts]

 

- Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]: Nemesis Force Halberd [1pts]

 

Paragon [44pts]: Storm Bolter [2pts]

 

- Nemesis Warding Stave [1pts]: Nemesis Warding Stave [1pts]

Edited May 8, 2020 by Skywrath

[Seizeman]

Hero of the chapter is a space marine stratagem, not a grey knights one. The original list used Lore master because it allowed you to mix dominus and sanctic powers, but the GK faq put and end to that, and because it used a chaplain instead of the second librarian so an extra power was useful. It was just a first iteration with no testing behind it. Even the original creator of the list now runs two librarians, halberds on strikes, Draigo and first to the fray (actually, the guy made the change to double librarian instead of the chaplain inmediately after his first tournament).

 

Why do you asume that Voldus is the warlord? In fact, it's generally not a good strategy to make your most valuable character your warlord, because you just make him a juicier target.

 

You need the librarian because you need a lot of powers. You want your characters to have the 6 dominus powers, astral aim and sanctuary (and maybe gate of infinity), so you need 8 slots for powers. Draigo + 2 librarians + BC + apothecary gives you that. Also, you want the sanctic shard and the nullifier matrix, and you need two librarians for that.

 

The chaplain is just bad. Very situational, very unreliable, very expensive, awful in melee.

 

Voldus does not have Draigo's aura. Voldus allows you to reroll 1s, Draigo allows you to reroll everything. Draigo is just a better Voldus. He has the same stats, except his aura is much better and he's twice (more, actually) as durable. Just the added durability is worth the extra points.

[Skywrath]

Hero of the chapter is a space marine stratagem, not a grey knights one. The original list used Lore master because it allowed you to mix dominus and sanctic powers, but the GK faq put and end to that, and because it used a chaplain instead of the second librarian so an extra power was useful. It was just a first iteration with no testing behind it. Even the original creator of the list now runs two librarians, halberds on strikes, Draigo and first to the fray (actually, the guy made the change to double librarian instead of the chaplain inmediately after his first tournament).

 

Why do you asume that Voldus is the warlord? In fact, it's generally not a good strategy to make your most valuable character your warlord, because you just make him a juicier target.

 

You need the librarian because you need a lot of powers. You want your characters to have the 6 dominus powers, astral aim and sanctuary (and maybe gate of infinity), so you need 8 slots for powers. Draigo + 2 librarians + BC + apothecary gives you that. Also, you want the sanctic shard and the nullifier matrix, and you need two librarians for that.

 

The chaplain is just bad. Very situational, very unreliable, very expensive, awful in melee.

 

Voldus does not have Draigo's aura. Voldus allows you to reroll 1s, Draigo allows you to reroll everything. Draigo is just a better Voldus. He has the same stats, except his aura is much better and he's twice (more, actually) as durable. Just the added durability is worth the extra points.

 

May I see said list? (Just PM it to me, so we don't derail the thread further)

 

Voldus I assume is the warlord, because for the 4 psychic abilities. Even if you can't mix those two disciplines together, having 4 dominus abilities is nothing to scoff at. Kaldor gives you two, and there is your six. We don't need 2 librarians for sanctic powers, and even then having them for dominus is overkill. You realistically can cast only one instance of a psychic ability correct? So why would you want more instances for a unit that you only cast once? Even for insurance sake, that's overkill, and there are much better options - the GMNDK for instance. It has good toughness, it has many wounds, it can synergize well with abilities - yes any GK can do that, but he does it well. In fact omitting the librarians, that may even save you points instead of having more librarians for no reason at all. You have strike squads, paladins, apothecaries all of which can cast a smite power, on top of Voldus which can cast 3, and a Librarian that can cast another 3? Why would you need 9 psychic abilities (or more) from your HQ, when the whole idea of this list is to sustain your paladin onslaught? Even the fact that you would have 2 battalions worth of troops that can smite and shoot their way to victory.

 

It seems to me that having 3 librarians in that list is overkill, unless you are planning to capitalise on empyric channeling for some odd reason. Which even then goes against the idea of having so much CP in the first place (if you are running a paladin bomb list)! You would be best using a chaplain because there is more synergy with this list due to his litanies, and even then you have the mother of all beatsticks with Voldus. I have a bias towards Kaldor being a good unit, so I'll agree with you that Kaldor is a good choice, good logic or not. Also going to agree that the Chaplain isn't great in melee, however I wouldn't be surprised if they FAQ'ed him to be able to wield any nemesis weapon (and they honestly should). 

 

I don't know much about relics, so I'll give you a pass on that one. Matrix does seem handy, however with brotherhood of psykers giving you +2 to cast, then even then that ability is not really needed. And wouldn't you want Cuirass of Sacrifice on your BC to protect him, as he extends your smite range?  

 

But I'll leave this there, because at this point we are derailing the thread. Back on topic - I'll reassert my previous opinion to the OP - Brother Captain if you don't have him, Ancient then everything else. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Skywrath

[Seizeman]

Voldus only can cast 3 powers per turn, trait or not, so you need 5 more slots (it's 8 powers in total). Draigo has 2. A librarian gives you another 2 (not 3).  Where do you get the other 3? Also, you can't afford to pay for both Voldus and Draigo unless you want to lose your apothecary or your second battalion, you it's either one or the other. You need 8 powers betwen your characters because that's what makes your army work, and you can't get that without librarians.

 

Chaplain litanies do nothing (literally nothing, most of the time). He's not going to get faqed because the model doesn't have those weapons, and GW only makes rules based on what the models have.

 

Yes, the matrix is really needed, because brootherhood of psykers does not give you +2 to cast (you should read the codex at some point), and you can't fail your key powers. Cuirass of Sacrifice is not even in the top 4 relics, and you can't have more than three.

[Skywrath]

Voldus only can cast 3 powers per turn, trait or not, so you need 5 more slots (it's 8 powers in total). Draigo has 2. A librarian gives you another 2 (not 3).  Where do you get the other 3? Also, you can't afford to pay for both Voldus and Draigo unless you want to lose your apothecary or your second battalion, you it's either one or the other. You need 8 powers betwen your characters because that's what makes your army work, and you can't get that without librarians.

 

Chaplain litanies do nothing (literally nothing, most of the time). He's not going to get faqed because the model doesn't have those weapons, and GW only makes rules based on what the models have.

 

Yes, the matrix is really needed, because brootherhood of psykers does not give you +2 to cast (you should read the codex at some point), and you can't fail your key powers. Cuirass of Sacrifice is not even in the top 4 relics, and you can't have more than three.

 

There is no need to start throwing insults around. I made one typo, that is all. If that's what you believe, fine. But at this point I think trying to argue with you is pointless - you keep a notoriously closed mind to the opinions of others. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

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Fraters, things are getting a wee bit tense here. Let's calm it down a dram. It's fine to disagree, but do it in a respectful non-blunt, non-aggressive manner, and be respectful and open to each others opinons. Let's keep the conversation cool.

 

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Edited May 9, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead