++Why Reivers are Bad++

[Valerian]

So as not to clutter up the Unit of the Week: Reivers thread, or Debauchery101's thread on Aggressive Tactics, I'll just start a new thread to explain why Reivers are such a bad choice in 8th edition.  I've brought some of these issues up to Simon Grant, and others on the rules development team, so hopefully they get some love in the future and are improved enough to make them worth taking.

 

1.  The first big issue with Reivers is that they're an Elites choice.  This is problematic in two ways: first, they aren't Troops, so aren't helping you fill out battalions, which is extremely important in generating as many Command Points as possible.  In 8e, Command Points fuel successful armies.  Troops are also better at contesting/securing Objectives, which is extremely important in most game scenarios.  The second problem with their slotting, is simply that they compete with so many other Elite choices that are really effective and/or efficient units.  Aggressors, Invictor Warsuits, Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor, certain Dreadnought options, and certainly Wulfen, all out-perform Reivers.  This doesn't leave you much space for taking Reivers in your typical double-Battalion army list.

 

2.  Since the Vanguard/Spearhead release, most (all?) of the Phobos armored units get Concealed Positions as a unit ability.  This allows these units to be setup outside your deployment zone, to put early pressure on the enemy, or to secure objectives, or important terrain that you wouldn't normally be able to immediately access.  Reivers don't get Concealed Positions.  Instead, they get two different (but similar) options for a Tactical Reserves (Deep Strike) deployment, both of which you have to pay extra for.  Taking either of these options makes them more expensive per model than Intercessors, which: are Troops, and outperform the Reivers in Shooting and Melee (if the Pack Leader is appropriately equipped).

3.  They do have one very cool ability in their Shock Grenades, which can eliminate a target unit's ability to Overwatch.  Unfortunately, the Shock Grenades, like all grenades, only have a 6" range, so they only work in game in very specific situations, where you're already very close to your Charge phase target, and they NEVER work if you chose to take advantage of either of their Deep Strike type of deployment options.

 

4.  They appear to be intended as close combat specialists, but aren't actually any good in close combat.  They have no option for anything more than S4, AP 0 attacks.  Certainly, the amount of attacks that they can generate seems somewhat impressive (5 for the Pack Leader and 4 each for the other Reivers on the charge), until you remember that Blood Claws put out the exact same number of melee attacks, and will save your 4 points per model, and are Troops, and can actually outperform the Reivers in close combat because they have the option to include a couple special close combat weapons in the pack (like a Power Fist and a Thunderhammer).

 

If all you want to do is generate a ton of S4, AP 0 attacks (the only thing Reivers can do), you'd be a lot better off taking Aggressors, that can generate a shed-load of these per turn, and can do it from up to 18" away.  And if they do actually get into melee, the Aggressors, unlike Reivers, can actually do some work, with every model's Boltstorm Gauntlet/Power Fist.

 

--As it stands, Reivers are outclassed by a basic Intercessor squad in every meaningful way.  The Intercessors are only 1 point per model more expensive, but If you take either of the Reivers upgrades, then the Intercessors are cheaper.  The Intercessors are Troops choices, more effective in the shooting phase with any of their 3 Bolt Rifle options, and, when you put a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist on the Sergeant, are more effective in close combat, as well.  If Reivers can't even compete with the most basic Primaris troop type, then they are miles away from being able to compete with any of the other actual Elite slot choices that we have.

 

Val

[Debauchery101]

All the primaris marines pretty much suck vs the intercessors or eliminators. All the other units are mostly just 5 man bullet sponges with different deployment

[TiguriusX]

All the primaris marines pretty much suck vs the intercessors or eliminators. All the other units are mostly just 5 man bullet sponges with different deployment

Try 2 war suits with ACs

 

I love them

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Thanks for the report. I agree with you on all your points. They may suffer from being an early primaris unit and they didn’t want to make them too good? It

Will be interesting to see if they get better in any way in the future. But as I’ve learned from wolf scouts, they’re okay with letting something be awful.

[Debauchery101]

 

All the primaris marines pretty much suck vs the intercessors or eliminators. All the other units are mostly just 5 man bullet sponges with different deployment

Try 2 war suits with ACs

 

I love them

They're alright. I'd still pick Venerable Dreads with Lascannons for 16 pts more for 2. They can't get bracketed and can use stratagems to survive a lot of punishment

 

But I really wasn't referring to them because technically they are in a whole category by themselves. Tons of psychics, startagems and buffs are lost on them that everyone else gets

Edited May 15, 2020 by Debauchery101

[TiguriusX]

 

 

All the primaris marines pretty much suck vs the intercessors or eliminators. All the other units are mostly just 5 man bullet sponges with different deployment

Try 2 war suits with ACs

 

I love them

They're alright. I'd still pick Venerable Dreads with Lascannons for 16 pts more for 2. They can't get bracketed and can use stratagems to survive a lot of punishment

The deployment options are what make the invictor better

 

And the threat of a fist hitting on 2s

 

Getting 1st turn with 2 invictors will cause your opponent massive headaches

[Valerian]

They may suffer from being an early primaris unit and they didn’t want to make them too good? 

 

I think that's definitely the issue.  One of the first Primaris units, in a brand new edition that was significantly changed from the previous one.  Those aspects alone would make it tricky to "get right."  Hopefully, now that they've added other Primaris (and indeed other Phobos) units, and have several years worth of gameplay feedback to evaluate, they won't hesitate to bump them up a significant notch.

[Debauchery101]

Primaris are suffering across the board because they keep supporting the firstborn marines.

[ranulf the revenant]

I think Reivers are just great! As a source of Phobos bodies to convert into Eliminators and Incursors.

[Kallas]

Primaris are suffering across the board because they keep supporting the firstborn marines.

 

Supporting them...by making many Primaris units more cost effective and releasing only Primaris units? And shuffling some Firstborn units off into Legends?

[Valerian]

Primaris are suffering across the board because they keep supporting the firstborn marines.

Can you elaborate? I’m curious as to what you mean with continued support, exactly.

[Dark Shepherd]

I thought Simon Grant didnt write rules any more and just did warcom stuff? He said so on Facebook but I could be wrong. In GENERAL people should very much err on the side of politeness to gw staff who engage on fb groups etc*

 

Re Reivers

They should be troops FOR US

Theyre overpointed

They definitely definitely should have stronger CC weapons

Probably wont but impending new edition might change how cp are generated

 

*havent seen your messages obviously so no reason at all to assume you werent polite, have just seen people giving him grief elsewhere and that aint cool, again must stress that am speaking generally

Edited May 16, 2020 by Dark Shepherd

[Valerian]

I thought Simon Grant didnt write rules any more

He doesn’t. I asked him to pass my thoughts along to those that do.

[TiguriusX]

 

I thought Simon Grant didnt write rules any more

He doesn’t. I asked him to pass my thoughts along to those that do.

 

 

Have banged on this drum before...but it makes total sense to give SW troop slot reivers because we lost our scouts to the elite slot

 

In older editions that wasn't so bad...but 8th with battalion troop tax and screening/deployment being so important it does make a difference.

 

They could even fluff it up now as part of the cults of Morkai and a new approach to training.

 

 

 

If GW really wanted to see sales of Reiver improve they could take it a step further and give SW reivers access to a single power weapon...call him a pack leader.

[Lord Blackwood]

So If they were troops I think I  would probably give them a look , even more so if they were troops with forward positions deployment available to them. 

[TiguriusX]

So If they were troops I think I  would probably give them a look , even more so if they were troops with forward positions deployment available to them. 

 

I would 100% take at least one over my current vanilla intercessors.

 

The ability to drop with no CP means they can be a valuable objective stealer.

 

I greatly value tactical flexibility.

[Dark Shepherd]

Codex says our Reivers take Scout Pack markings so they could easily go either way (troops or elites) for us

[HvitrValdyr]

Codex says our Reivers take Scout Pack markings so they could easily go either way (troops or elites) for us

While I understand why this decision was made, for me Reivers fit better with Blood Claw markings. After all, they are close up, cut you into tiny pieces while screaming bloody murder in your face psychos. I imagine all new SW Primaris marines starting out as Reivers similar to how first borns start as Blood Claws and think GW should rule them as such: Primaris close combat troop choice.

[Debauchery101]

 

Primaris are suffering across the board because they keep supporting the firstborn marines.

Can you elaborate? I’m curious as to what you mean with continued support, exactly.

Legends all the og marines. Unlock all the normal units, weapons, transports and wargear to primaris. Or at the very least make Pure Primaris codex which allows them make a primaris smash captain, primaris terminators that deep strike and have invulnerable saves etc

 

Mostly what gets on my nerves is GW boosts stats, makes rules or needs stats/rules which affect sales and the competitive scene for which they use to market their stuff. The shenanigans that have happened in the last 8 months i think have marked probably the worst era in my 30 yrs playing

 

I recall some of the designers on their warhammer podcast say they wanted to move marines to more of an elite army closer to deathwatch. In some ways it has gone that way. These new updates further enhance each chapters specialties but in tired of seeing the same primaris ultramarine models with a few "pieces of flair" bits on them to be some other chapter. When they make the non codex primaris models to fully replace say stuff like wolf guard, sanguinary guard, Ravenwing....primaris will be what we read in the Stories and what they should be...unless you have access to a new primarisified named character your 5 man Intercessor squad with a hammer is the best unit for primaris. Its like I'm still playing 3rd edition

Edited May 17, 2020 by Jarl Caldersson
replaced unacceptable acronym with "pieces of flair"

[Debauchery101]

 

Codex says our Reivers take Scout Pack markings so they could easily go either way (troops or elites) for us

While I understand why this decision was made, for me Reivers fit better with Blood Claw markings. After all, they are close up, cut you into tiny pieces while screaming bloody murder in your face psychos. I imagine all new SW Primaris marines starting out as Reivers similar to how first borns start as Blood Claws and think GW should rule them as such: Primaris close combat troop choice.

That's what I got from the Tooth and claw book. Also inceptors are supposed to be blood claw type marines.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

 

Codex says our Reivers take Scout Pack markings so they could easily go either way (troops or elites) for us

While I understand why this decision was made, for me Reivers fit better with Blood Claw markings. After all, they are close up, cut you into tiny pieces while screaming bloody murder in your face psychos. I imagine all new SW Primaris marines starting out as Reivers similar to how first borns start as Blood Claws and think GW should rule them as such: Primaris close combat troop choice.

That's what I got from the Tooth and claw book. Also inceptors are supposed to be blood claw type marines.

Its a lot of shoehorning at the moment but Eliminators and Incursors/Infiltrators are much closer to Wolf Scouts but theyre heavy support (bizarely) and troops respectively.

 

Terror troops with skull masks and big spoons I mean knives are Bloodclaws all day. We just lose out to general marine homogeny

[Debauchery101]

 

 

 

Codex says our Reivers take Scout Pack markings so they could easily go either way (troops or elites) for us

While I understand why this decision was made, for me Reivers fit better with Blood Claw markings. After all, they are close up, cut you into tiny pieces while screaming bloody murder in your face psychos. I imagine all new SW Primaris marines starting out as Reivers similar to how first borns start as Blood Claws and think GW should rule them as such: Primaris close combat troop choice.

That's what I got from the Tooth and claw book. Also inceptors are supposed to be blood claw type marines.

Its a lot of shoehorning at the moment but Eliminators and Incursors/Infiltrators are much closer to Wolf Scouts but theyre heavy support (bizarely) and troops respectively.

 

Terror troops with skull masks and big spoons I mean knives are Bloodclaws all day. We just lose out to general marine homogeny

They should have made- Phobos Marines Squad-

I understand making eliminators and the sgt a stand alone choice

 

But the rest of the Phobos units should be 1 choice and you can kit them how you want...like say you want a Reiver Sgt with flashbangs, a comms array, an apthecary adept, then you can pick more of the reivers/incursors/Infiltrators, a haywire mine then also give them the option for grav chutes and grapnel.launchers..

Edited May 17, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Wispy]

i find myself unable to agree with the "reivers should be blood claws" takes. Reivers are professionals, scary and ruthless stonecold killers, hence they are Wolf Scouts to me. Blood Claws are wild and rambunctious, terrifying in their own undisciplined way.

[Iron Lord]

 

. I imagine all new SW Primaris marines starting out as Reivers similar to how first borns start as Blood Claws 

 

 

While he's an Ultramarine rather than a Space Wolf, Gaius Pollandus's first role after completing Scout training, was as a Reiver in the 10th Company.

 

So there's precedent for "A Primaris can be a Reiver before doing anything else."

 

The general rule is that all Primaris should at least train in all the Vanguard roles before leaving the 10th Company. I'd speculate that the easiest jobs tend to be learned first. 

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

 

 

. I imagine all new SW Primaris marines starting out as Reivers similar to how first borns start as Blood Claws

 

While he's an Ultramarine rather than a Space Wolf, Gaius Pollandus's first role after completing Scout training, was as a Reiver in the 10th Company.

 

So there's precedent for "A Primaris can be a Reiver before doing anything else."

 

The general rule is that all Primaris should at least train in all the Vanguard roles before leaving the 10th Company. I'd speculate that the easiest jobs tend to be learned first.

Except in space wolves blood claws are the scout equivalent. So this really sets no precedent for reivers being blood claws at all...