9th edition implications for the GK

[Skywrath]

Unlikely, seeing how their intent is to homogenise marines. Of course that being said we are getting our own codex when we are considered "marines", but if I were to really put my tinfoil hat on, that can be done for the purposes of making people pay extra, which translates to more people not playing GK. 

[Captain Coolpants]

Also transhuman is now primaris only in the Marines book.

 

Means it'll likely vanish in ours

[Skywrath]

Also transhuman is now primaris only in the Marines book.

 

Means it'll likely vanish in ours

 

WHAT???! Well, I guess that confirms we aren't getting primaris on top of this.

[Shagah]

Given the extent of the Marine Codex, could we see a return to the Daemonhunter style codex less the allied rules?

As long as there were a GK troops choice still I would not be adverse to this.

[Brother Tyler]

The Grey Knights are considered Space Marines/Adeptus Astartes and they currently have and will retain their own codex. The reason they're not being rolled into Codex: Space Marines is because they have only a few units in common with the other Chapters. A hypothetical codex supplement for the Grey Knights would require GW to say that you can't take 90% of the units in Codex: Space Marines and must instead take these units from Codex Supplement: Grey Knights. The Grey Knights are simply too different to be rolled into the other codex. This is more cost-effective than having to buy a main codex and a codex supplement.

 

 

Also transhuman is now primaris only in the Marines book.

 

Means it'll likely vanish in ours

 

WHAT???! Well, I guess that confirms we aren't getting primaris on top of this.

 

How does that confirm that the Grey Knights won't be getting Primaris? All it implies is that the Grey Knights won't have the Transhuman rule because they don't have any Primaris among their ranks. If the Grey Knights were ever to get Primaris, odds are that those units/models would follow the pattern of their counterparts in Codex: Space Marines.

 

Given the extent of the Marine Codex, could we see a return to the Daemonhunter style codex less the allied rules?

As long as there were a GK troops choice still I would not be adverse to this.

That isn't likely. The Deathwatch were similarly the "chamber militant" of the Ordo Xenos, yet they retain their separation from the Inquisition via being a codex (soon a codex supplement) dedicated to their Chapter. Having fewer options than the other Space Marine Chapters doesn't imply the need to be consolidated with some other faction in order to have a similar range of units. The Harlequins are another excellent example of this principle. They are even more limited than the Grey Knights, yet retain their own codex. Hobbyists can still take them in larger AELDARI armies by allying them with their cousins from the craftworlds and the dark city. Similarly, players looking to replicate the old Daemonhunters codex can simply ally their Grey Knights with Tempestus Militarum and Inquisition units (albeit, lacking some of the oomph that the older codex had).

 

GW has steered away from the soup codices (e.g., Khorne Daemonkin, Witch Hunters, Daemonhunters) and allowed players to mix units from different codices into soup armies via keywords. Also, GW has shifted away from the chambers militant phrasing, where the Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and Adepta Sororitas came off as subordinate to their allied ordos. The wording now makes it so that these organizations fight alongside the ordos more as equals. With all of these changes, there's no need for a return to Codex: Daemonhunters.

 

I'm of the opinion that the Grey Knights will eventually get Primaris within their ranks. It would be great if that happened in this edition with their next codex, but it might happen later. Much of this depends upon GW's ability to align resources with the schedule - modelers to design the models and developers to develop the rules - all also very much dependent upon all of the other stuff that GW has going on.

 

All we can reliably and constructively do here is consider the implications of the basic 9th edition rules, as well as how the rules for legacy Adeptus Astartes (I still can't bring myself to call them "first born" even though GW has started doing this) might cascade into the Grey Knights rules. Primaris rules are a non-issue for the Grey Knights until the Grey Knights get Primaris. There's too much worrying about wild imagination and fear and not enough dealing with reality here.

[Skywrath]

The Grey Knights are considered Space Marines/Adeptus Astartes and they currently have and will retain their own codex. The reason they're not being rolled into Codex: Space Marines is because they have only a few units in common with the other Chapters. A hypothetical codex supplement for the Grey Knights would require GW to say that you can't take 90% of the units in Codex: Space Marines and must instead take these units from Codex Supplement: Grey Knights. The Grey Knights are simply too different to be rolled into the other codex. This is more cost-effective than having to buy a main codex and a codex supplement.

 

 

Also transhuman is now primaris only in the Marines book.

 

Means it'll likely vanish in ours

 

WHAT???! Well, I guess that confirms we aren't getting primaris on top of this.

 

How does that confirm that the Grey Knights won't be getting Primaris? All it implies is that the Grey Knights won't have the Transhuman rule because they don't have any Primaris among their ranks. If the Grey Knights were ever to get Primaris, odds are that those units/models would follow the pattern of their counterparts in Codex: Space Marines.

 

 

Because if the above is true, and transhuman does apply only to primaris, wouldn't you think that we would have access to primaris? Because the way the wind is blowing at the current time, (again with the assumption that the above is true), I'm half expecting an errata for Psychic Awakening: Ritual of the Damned, to the tune of : Grey Knights <page X> Remove Transhuman Physiology from this page. This is done again with the reasoning, we don't have primaris YET. So why would GW give us access to transhuman when we are the only chapter that doesn't have primaris? It doesn't make sense (for them at least). 

 

As for us getting primaris, while I cross my fingers and hope eagerly, I think my viewpoint has shifted considerably since last time. My experience with them, that they are nothing but a greedy corporation who prioritises wealth > everything else. Seeing how the GK are one of the most under-represented factions, why would they make that decision, when it won't get them enough of a financial gain compared to say, more marine range? Look forward to your response.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Skywrath

[Captain Coolpants]

Well, if they release grey knights primaris, they'd probably just do what they always do these days.

 

Give us borderline OP rules so everyone wants and buys them. Then a little while later after sales start waning, nerf them in the faq/chapter approved/new codex releases.

 

Unfortunately these days, the rules are what make the majority want certain models, not aesthetics so much anymore.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Corvus Fortis]

I've checked pts costs of the new SM terminators and they seem only to go up by mere 2 points with full loadout. So I expect our terminators to be about 39-40 pts including all weapons.

[Reskin]

In terms of fluff, wasn't our gene-seed straight from the Emperor, not any of the Primarchs? doesnt make sense for us to get primaris marines, considering we are Vastly different then ANY other space marine chapter. Most of them dont know we exist..... stupid wolves...

 

In terms of gossip, is it true that non-primaris space marines are going to 2W models now? bringing them inline with Primaris marines? That makes more sense to act as a buff from chapters who wont be getting primaris marines?

[Skywrath]

Circling back to my previous assertion that Exorcists are GK successors and they have primaris, I don't see a reason why we couldn't have them. Of course could and should are two different things, but story for another time.

 

In terms of the gossip, yes, our strikes/purgations/purifiers/interceptors will all get 2 wounds, and our terminators 3. Whether paladins will get 4 is another matter entirely. Speaking of which, Corvus, if terminators are theoretically going up by 2 points, what do you suspect the point increase of our paladins will be?

[Skywrath]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/JfSfovi1okaRXORn.pdf

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/05/codex-updates-wargear-profiles-and-rules/

 

So Draigo now has a 4+ invuln now, in line with the new storm-shields.  So far unclear whether Deamon Hammers are now -2AP, instead of -3, as the article only specifies regular thunder hammers. No other updates for us, which could either be a good thing or a bad thing.

 

Discuss.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Skywrath

[Captain Coolpants]

Hmmm, So in the grey knights pdf, at the bottom its got a table of weapon updates. None of our nemesis weapons are in there.

Meaning we stay exactly as we are for the time being. So no +1 strength swords or anything

[Skywrath]

Yeah, that table wasn't there last time I checked. Anyone else feeling something approaching resentment, that we got diddly squat again?

[Captain Coolpants]

Im feeling pretty optimistic. I don't know why! But I definitely feel that we won't be completely left behind.

[Icosiel]

I like that we aren't wrapped up in the updates of the other Chapters. We are unique enough that we get our own Codex, so I don't mind waiting for it. We'll get our updates eventually. In the meantime, our Grand Masters are the only commanders in the Imperium that can reroll their own 1s.

[Corvus Fortis]

Speaking of which, Corvus, if terminators are theoretically going up by 2 points, what do you suspect the point increase of our paladins will be?

 

 

Sanguinary guard didn't get additional wound and now I doubt that paladins will get one two. They may even stay at current cost. Anyway, I expect a complete overhaul of our codex. And it won't be rushed to be one of the first, like the last time.

 

So Draigo now has a 4+ invuln now, in line with the new storm-shields.  So far unclear whether Deamon Hammers are now -2AP, instead of -3, as the article only specifies regular thunder hammers. No other updates for us, which could either be a good thing or a bad thing.

 

 

Do we even have thunderhammers? Maybe, techmarine can take one, I can't recall. Nemesis Demon hammer is a different weapon and staying at x2 -3 3 stats until FAQed/new codex.

 

Yes, we didn't get new profiles on a lot of stuff (NFWs, Incinerators, etc.), but on the bright side, Librarian in C:SM got +1 S on all force weapons, which means that we are getting +1 S on all our NFWs at some point. 

 

What annoys me is our hanged up state getting even worse. We can give rerolls in auras, but our Dreads needs a stratagem to get -1 D. We can use THP on any unit and still have machine spirit revenge. This all is just plain stupid. All this things should be FAQed ASAP, otherwise we are waiting minimum half a year to become normal faction with current standarts.

 

What annoys me even more is that GW prioritised supplements for C:SM above other factions, that need update badly (us, Chaos). Indexes are fine. They brought other SM stuff in line and just lack some strats/relics/traits. This all could wait, but know. Vanilla marines are swimming in goodness till the end of the year+January. Disgusting. 

 

 In the meantime, our Grand Masters are the only commanders in the Imperium that can reroll their own 1s.

 

 No. There are still Canoness, Shield-Captain, Tank Commanders and other stuff. Actually, only marines have lost this ability so far. 

[TheGoldenThrone]

So today's update leaves GK as the final Astartes with 1W classic marines and 2W Terminators?

[Skywrath]

Seems that way. Although that being said, I don't see the the blue text of GW saying increase the wounds characteristic of < insert firstborn unit here> in ANY of the updated FAQs.

 

Also Corvus - no we don't have TH, nor paradoxically the SS option. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Skywrath

[Waking Dreamer]

 

 

 

Sanguinary guard didn't get additional wound and now I doubt that paladins will get one two. They may even stay at current cost. Anyway, I expect a complete overhaul of our codex. And it won't be rushed to be one of the first, like the last time.

 

Yeah. Just as how a few of us were already predicting. Also of note, Deathwing Knights all received WS2+ so I'm even more confident Paladins are getting base WS2+ then before. I'm curious, is an estimated ~10ppm difference worth the +1WS, +1A, +1Ld  (40ish pt Terminator vs 50pt Paladin)?

 

 

Yes, we didn't get new profiles on a lot of stuff (NFWs, Incinerators, etc.), but on the bright side, Librarian in C:SM got +1 S on all force weapons, which means that we are getting +1 S on all our NFWs at some point. 

 

It's good to know some of us were on the right track with the parallel Power/Force/Nemesis Weapon buffs! It goes to show if you can follow a little of GW's thinking, you can better set your expectations accordingly and not get needlessly disappointed.

 

Right now I'm thinking if a base 2 Damage Psycannon is worth 15pts on infantry (another personal prediction), for the eventual update with our GK codex. 

[Corvus Fortis]

GW forgot to make our plasmacutter to overheat on unmodified 1's. You still overheating on 1's and 2's if you are shooting at something with -1 to-hit. Can't believe that this stupid rule existed for the whole extent of 8th.

 

I wonder now, if our paladins can get innate THP, like Inner Circle units. Or some other special rules. Universla WS2+ and bonus attack on paragon could be very nice too.

[Skywrath]

GW forgot to make our plasmacutter to overheat on unmodified 1's. You still overheating on 1's and 2's if you are shooting at something with -1 to-hit. Can't believe that this stupid rule existed for the whole extent of 8th.

 

I wonder now, if our paladins can get innate THP, like Inner Circle units. Or some other special rules. Universla WS2+ and bonus attack on paragon could be very nice too.

 

As a Dark Angel player myself, I think I can answer that and my response would be you can 100% absolutely, unequivocally expect that to be either removed/reworked. There was a Dark Angel list in 8th that won tournaments, but they nerfed it into the ground pretty quickly, you can expect this to be nerfed equally as quick. The other alternative is that ALL the chapters get something chapter specific for the terminators. So Blood Angels could get one attack, ultras could get leadership, etc etc. Wonder what we will get if that was the case.

[Waking Dreamer]

I wonder now, if our paladins can get innate THP, like Inner Circle units. Or some other special rules. Universla WS2+ and bonus attack on paragon could be very nice too.

4 attacks on the Paragon would put him in line with the UM Victrix Guard, Deathshroud Terminator Leader and our own Paladin Ancient and Brother Captain. I don't see him as less combat capable than those units, and keeps him more distinctive in stats compared to the rest of the Paladin squad when they all probably get WS2+.

 

Deathwing Company Command get a new bodyguard rule which prevents Character targeting as long as 1 model is within 3".

 

This way blobs of GK termies are used to hold mid-board objectives while you can teleport say Draigo and a min squad of 3 Paladins to bust up enemy units on another objective!

 

3W Paladins hopefully keeps them cheaper if not the same price now compared to 4W Paladins.

[Skywrath]

 

I wonder now, if our paladins can get innate THP, like Inner Circle units. Or some other special rules. Universla WS2+ and bonus attack on paragon could be very nice too.

4 attacks on the Paragon would put him in line with the UM Victrix Guard, Deathshroud Terminator Leader and our own Paladin Ancient and Brother Captain. I don't see him as less combat capable than those units, and keeps him more distinctive in stats compared to the rest of the Paladin squad when they all probably get WS2+.

 

Deathwing Company Command get a new bodyguard rule which prevents Character targeting as long as 1 model is within 3".

 

This way blobs of GK termies are used to hold mid-board objectives while you can teleport say Draigo and a min squad of 3 Paladins to bust up enemy units on another objective!

 

3W Paladins hopefully keeps them cheaper if not the same price now compared to 4W Paladins.

 

 

Would be pretty fluffy if that applies to the Apothecary too.

[Reskin]

you can most likely see our characters getting some innate buffs, in leu of having the aura abilities changed to only affect 1 unit in the radius. I imagine that most of our units will have the core keyword, i.e, both troop choices, paladins, purifiers, dreadnoughts, and the NDK.

 

I also am hoping our NFW become a bit better then the vanilla power weapons, D3+1w would be sweet

You can compare our NFsword to the power sword, our Halberd to the power axe, and seeing as we dont get chain fists, I cant imagine they make our anti vehicle/anto armour any worse and change our hammers to be inline with thunderhammers, I imagine it will still be -3ap and flat wounds.

 

On another note, GM Voldus stocks rose imho. I am saving 30pts on Draigo now and will be Taking Voldus almost every time. 4 spells is just too good for 1 less wound and same invul save.

[Brother Lunkhead]

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This latest stream of posts has more to do with Primaris models and lore as it pertains (or not) to GK's and has little or nothing to do with 9th edition implications. Therefore, I'll be moving a lot of this over to the Halls of Titan thread in the next day or two as time permits. There's nothing wrong with this line of conversation, it's just in the wrong place. 

 

If you have any questions of concerns, just PM me.

 

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