9th edition implications for the GK

[Sothalor]

Simple: the Banisher has the Power of the Machine Spirit, which per the latest FAQ removes it from the GK Codex, so the Banisher Power of the Machine Spirit does absolutely nothing! 

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Some more things of note:

- Banisher is now equipped with 2 Heavy Incinerators (so probably a slight downgrade to Flamestorm Cannons hopefully for cheaper points, and to be thematically more fitting).

- Base cost is 265/285 points (my eyesight is not what it once was)?

 

As pointed out, I'm really most excited for the new <BROTHERHOOD> keyword as well. It will probably be that extra system on top of our Tides to compensate for us being individually different to Codex SM. The closest thing I can think of would be the Custodes <SHIELD HOST> upgrade for different detachments at the cost of Command Points.

 

Hopefully Tides will be upgraded to effect VEHICLES unconditionally now, otherwise Convergence will still do nothing for our H.Psycannon, G.Psilencer, and Twin Psycannon platforms.

 

Theoretically, what difference do you think there would be between Flamestorm Cannons/Heavy Incinerators? As far as I am concerned, they are both the same thing. Hoping Vehicles get buffed as well.

 

Rule-wise, currently Flamestorm Cannons have AP-2 compared to Heavy Incinerators' AP-1. Model-wise the resin Flamer on the Banisher looks distinctly different to the standard plastic Flamestorm Cannons, and since it literally looks like a giant GK Incinerator, I'm fine with it becoming Heavy Incinerators on a GK-only landraider going forward.

 

We will still have access to Flamestorm Cannons if we take the standard Landraider Redeemer. It's possible GW may just streamline weapon profiles and make Heavy Incinerators AP-2 (meaning a subtle buff to NDKs) as well, making it the same as Flamestorm Cannons except for the name.

 

I do like the idea of future proofing the Banisher Landraider, so when / if Stratagems to GK incinerators and heavy incinerators appear in our Codex, unique buffs to our Banisher can be applicable (such as Psychic Onslaught for its Twin Psycannon), further distinguishing and incentivizing its use compared to the standard redeemer - which every other SM has just the same.

[Captain Coolpants]

I would like to know why they don't sell the banishers dual psycannon turret separately like they used too. There's literally no reason for us to not have the vortimer razorback again. We'd probably still not use it competitively, but is great thematically.

[Captain Coolpants]

So the legends is out for the imperial armour compendium.

 

 

The doomglaive dread is still in... Kinda..

 

Its a straight up nerf. But still interesting.

Its just a weapons option for a regular dreadnought, meaning not for a venerable dreadnought..

But a heavy psycannon and doomglaive and stormbolter is just 15pts all in.

 

And heavy psycannon with doomglaive and incinerator is 25pts all in.

 

The doomglaive is just +1 strength, -3AP D6 damage.

 

But comes in cheaper than a basic dread.

Overall a big nerf by no longer being venerable. But let cheap.

Cheapest build is 95pts as points stand right now.

 

And the vortimer razorback is still in, kinda. Just an upgrade for a regular plain razorbacks heavy bolter at no extra cost.

 

No change for psycannons

Edited November 9, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Icosiel]

So I haven't spent much time with the new Codex layout since it's just SM and Necrons so far, but Im imagining the Doomglaive/Psycannon combo saying "+15 points" means it's 15 points more than the basic Assault Cannon/CCW combo. If you look in the SM Codex, the Dreadnought is 120 points base, which includes the Assault Cannon/CCW. To switch out other weapons it just tells you to add a certain number of points. I would think that the +15 for the Doomglaive/Psycannon means that it is 15 points more than our Assault Cannon Dread. But... our codex is also still written with the old style of points, so, who knows.

[Corvus Fortis]

It is confusing, that Twin Psycannon has old profile, while one in IA compendium is D2 (not entirely sure about number of shots, but seems like 6 to me opposed to 8). Doomglaive could be at least S+2, S+1 is just lame.

 

I think, considering unofficial status of legends being for kitchen games only, you can just homerule VenDreads to be upgradable to Doomglaive. Same with twin psycannon for razorback.

 

Anyway, RIP Doomglaive, you was the coolest dread out there.

[Waking Dreamer]

Well on the profile of the Banisher the weapon is listed as Twin Psycannon, whereas here in Legends it's listed as Razorback Twin Psycannon. So the difference in profile could be intentional.

 

Of course as already stated with these units, we are in casual / house rule territory anyway. It's not about beating the current meta lists, but more about playing with your cool conversions and OOP models. Tweak the rules so you can enjoy playing them on the table. 

 

I am reservedly optimistic that the <BROTHERHOOD> keyword could encourage GK vehicle lists in someway making the Banisher, Doomglaive and Psyback more interestingly to play with.

[Skywrath]

I hope that we get the weapon options for the Doomglaive as an option for non-legends Dreadnoughts. Although if so, I'm baffled why this applies to regular dreadnoughts and not venerable dreadnoughts. Until then, I am fairly sad he's a legends choice.

[Icosiel]

Yeah. Me too. Makes sense, though. He doesn't have a current model.

[Reskin]

Wait, wasn't the doomglaive removed from IA? If so, it means no model no rule. And likely will be legends or non-existent. 
What I don't understand, is why they moved auto-cannon dreads to legends, or better yet. Why they never sculpted weapons and put them in the dreadnought box. Its not that hard, they already had autocannon sculpts for various other models and units back in the day.

I feel for all those from IA that got screwed over from the release. At the same time, I understand GW's agenda.

 

As for the psycannon, I'm struggling to follow the convo, or I'm misunderstanding what you are all saying.

 

The psycannon is a modified assault cannon. So what happened to the vanilla marine's assault cannon? Is it D2 now?

If so; the standard psycannon for infantry will follow that.

 

The heavy psycannon for the NDK will be then upgraded accordingly following that. 

 

As for the "twin psycannon" weapon on the Landraider, its not actually a "new" weapon. What that represents is 2 "normal" psycannons that infantry use. Otherwise it would state 2 "heavy psycannons" In which case its the weapon from the NDK.

[Waking Dreamer]

Wait, wasn't the doomglaive removed from IA? If so, it means no model no rule. And likely will be legends or non-existent. 

What I don't understand, is why they moved auto-cannon dreads to legends, or better yet. Why they never sculpted weapons and put them in the dreadnought box. Its not that hard, they already had autocannon sculpts for various other models and units back in the day.

I feel for all those from IA that got screwed over from the release. At the same time, I understand GW's agenda.

 

As for the psycannon, I'm struggling to follow the convo, or I'm misunderstanding what you are all saying.

 

The psycannon is a modified assault cannon. So what happened to the vanilla marine's assault cannon? Is it D2 now?

If so; the standard psycannon for infantry will follow that.

 

The heavy psycannon for the NDK will be then upgraded accordingly following that. 

 

As for the "twin psycannon" weapon on the Landraider, its not actually a "new" weapon. What that represents is 2 "normal" psycannons that infantry use. Otherwise it would state 2 "heavy psycannons" In which case its the weapon from the NDK.

 

Doomglaive is now officially in legends...because it has no model anymore.

 

Autocannon arms don't come in box-kit sprues. They are resin from FW, who dont have the manufacturing capabilities to keep making them, so that is why it is legends. 

 

Assault cannon is still D1.

 

The "Twin Psycannon" on the Banisher has a different profile to the "Razorback Twin Psycannon" profile that is also now in Legends:

- Heavy 8 AP-1 D1 (Razorback) vs

- Heavy 6 AP-1 D2 (Banisher).

[Reskin]

Then by that description, the psycannon on the banisher is the same as the current heavy psycannon that the NDK can take.

[Captain Coolpants]

Correct. We are hoping this is because they are changing the psycannon rules, and not a case if them copying and pasting the wrong stats.

[Skywrath]

I mean I mentioned this before, but with the recent changes, it seems psycannons are going to be roughly comparable to plasma incinerators (with the shooting tide/psychic onslaught ((if we still have it).

 

On a completely unrelated side-note, I have a pit in my stomach, as I have a suspicion what the brotherhood keyword is. During my skirmishes playing the new Deathwatch rules, I zoned out, and recalled their Kill-Team benefits and specialisation. For those that don't know, those are Malleus, Venator, Purgatus to name a few. Each one of those 6 keywords addresses a role on the battlefield, such as Malleus can re-roll wounds of 1 against Flyers/Heavy Support units, and all failed wound rolls of said units are the xenos equivalent. Now with this in mind, and assuming that we don't get cults, is there a possibility that the brotherhoods we see now, can be the aforementioned, but targeting Demons role instead of Xenos? 

[Reskin]

Nah I don't believe so, we are already a whole faction dedicated to daemons, in every unit we resemble this trait. I assume we will be renamed sanctic Astartes like the rumor's floating around. But I don't see too much changing, other then stat and weapon profiles. I'm not even sure if they are preparing new sculpts for the GKs. As its extremely unlikely we get primaris. It doesn't fit out chapter in the slightest.

 

Perhaps we get transhuman on our paladins alone, like the inner circle rule for DA deathwing.

 

We really cant get out hopes up, it leads to disappointment. And we've all been around long enough to know what they are like.

 

We have to base our judgements on facts, and precedent. What has happened with the SM, the SW and DW codex's and supplements. i.e New units? New rules? new stat line changes?

We can't use necron's as a base either, they are a completely different faction/race.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Reskin

[Waking Dreamer]

It is confusing, that Twin Psycannon has old profile, while one in IA compendium is D2 (not entirely sure about number of shots, but seems like 6 to me opposed to 8). Doomglaive could be at least S+2, S+1 is just lame.

 

I think, considering unofficial status of legends being for kitchen games only, you can just homerule VenDreads to be upgradable to Doomglaive. Same with twin psycannon for razorback.

 

Anyway, RIP Doomglaive, you was the coolest dread out there.

 

They seem to consider D6 damage a premium profile stat. If we consider the Heavy Psycannon + Doomglaive = 15 points > Assault Cannon + DCCW then from what we know:

- Heavy Psycannon 25 points > Assault Cannon (20 points)

- Nemesis Doomglaive 30 points > DCCW (20 points)

 

I'm not sure how S7 AP-3 D6 damage vs S12 AP-3 flat 3 damage is worth 10 points more...?! lol

 

For house ruling, I'd either keep the Doomglaive at S9 for it's apparent 30 points cost, or have it's Legends S7 for the same cost of a DCCW, so an overall (+5 points) upgrade for the load out instead of the (+15 points) they recommend.

[Reskin]

Yeah, seems a bit crap. Considering that it doesn't have stratagems like the NDK being able to reroll wounds and damage rolls.

[Corvus Fortis]

But doomglaive includes incinerator, doesn't it?

[Reskin]

But doomglaive includes incinerator, doesn't it?

I think its upgradable. I'm struggling to comprehend why you would want to include melee vehicles in the first place, its slow, easily killable, by walking it up the field you are just helping the meltaguns on the opposite team.

 

Other then your casual fluff games. I don't see this doing more work then a unit of termies for the same price.

[Waking Dreamer]

But doomglaive includes incinerator, doesn't it?

 

It's a 10 point upgrade over the Storm bolter. So, +25 points for the Incinerator load out over the default Assault Cannon + DCCW & SB.

 

With the Doomglaive I've mainly fielded him for stylistic / thematical purposes more than anything. For competitive, no frills Dreadnought load outs - the obvious choice is  already the all-shooty venerable.

 

Personally, the best times for me to use one is when I know the SM player is bringing in their own army-thematic dreadnoughts such as Wulfen / Death Company / Furioso /  Librarian dreads etc. Seeing an opposing old school dread with it's giant Friesian Axe & Blizzard Shield, or it's Furioso Fist and Force Halberd across the table from your Doomglaive...well there's really only one (epically) logical thing for the both of you to do....

 

"Let them fight!"

 

 

From there it's really about honoring and representing your SM Chapter!

 

Good times...

[Reskin]

is that Eric Banner and Brad Pitt?

[Skywrath]

But doomglaive includes incinerator, doesn't it?

 

That it does, like every dreadnought upgrade with the claw, it has the choice of incinerator or stormbolter. That being said, it would be a cool idea to see a third upgrade when our codex drops that features an undersling psilencer/psycannon (think pistol version, that benefits from our tides), that would be amazing!

 

 

But doomglaive includes incinerator, doesn't it?

 

It's a 10 point upgrade over the Storm bolter. So, +25 points for the Incinerator load out over the default Assault Cannon + DCCW & SB.

 

With the Doomglaive I've mainly fielded him for stylistic / thematical purposes more than anything. For competitive, no frills Dreadnought load outs - the obvious choice is  already the all-shooty venerable.

 

Personally, the best times for me to use one is when I know the SM player is bringing in their own army-thematic dreadnoughts such as Wulfen / Death Company / Furioso /  Librarian dreads etc. Seeing an opposing old school dread with it's giant Friesian Axe & Blizzard Shield, or it's Furioso Fist and Force Halberd across the table from your Doomglaive...well there's really only one (epically) logical thing for the both of you to do....

 

"Let them fight!"

 

 

From there it's really about honoring and representing your SM Chapter!

 

Good times...

 

 

That being said, in a purely competitive scenario, the venerable dreadnought with the claw still wins over the nemesis doomglaive option - D6 vs 3 flat. I'm still hoping that we see an option for a dreadnought to be equiped with said doomglaive, but I don't think it's likely. You will be remembered, oh Venerable Doomglaive :(

[Weltbild]

That it does, like every dreadnought upgrade with the claw, it has the choice of incinerator or stormbolter. That being said, it would be a cool idea to see a third upgrade when our codex drops that features an undersling psilencer/psycannon (think pistol version, that benefits from our tides), that would be amazing!

I like the idea but GW would first have to delete the ‚infantry model‘ requirement from tide of convergence. Why did they put it that way in the first place? And would heavy psycannons on dreadnoughts be too much to ask for? (Would we even use this?)

Edited November 13, 2020 by Weltbild

[Skywrath]

 

That it does, like every dreadnought upgrade with the claw, it has the choice of incinerator or stormbolter. That being said, it would be a cool idea to see a third upgrade when our codex drops that features an undersling psilencer/psycannon (think pistol version, that benefits from our tides), that would be amazing!

I like the idea but GW would first have to delete the ‚infantry model‘ requirement from tide of convergence. Why did they put it that way in the first place? And would heavy psycannons on dreadnoughts be too much to ask for? (Would we even use this?)

 

 

Welcome to the Halls of Titan, Neophyte, it's always nice to see a new face here!

 

That being said, I think this *might* happen for one reason - competitiveness. Currently as things stand, playing my Grey Knights, I get tabled with marines and their new weapon upgrades by turn 3, pretty easily (despite my best efforts, but I'm not the best player, admittedly). So extending the tide to Vehicles would make sense to keep in-line with the new weapon upgrade. The other effect is to promote the use of units we don't really see played on the TT - such as the GMNDK (I know with this new edition he's seeing far more play, but he still suffers from the same problems he had in 8th). As for the Dreadnought, that was more of a mental musing, it would be nice, but I don't see it happening. 

 

Keen to hear others thoughts!

[Reskin]

 

 

That it does, like every dreadnought upgrade with the claw, it has the choice of incinerator or stormbolter. That being said, it would be a cool idea to see a third upgrade when our codex drops that features an undersling psilencer/psycannon (think pistol version, that benefits from our tides), that would be amazing!

I like the idea but GW would first have to delete the ‚infantry model‘ requirement from tide of convergence. Why did they put it that way in the first place? And would heavy psycannons on dreadnoughts be too much to ask for? (Would we even use this?)

 

 

Welcome to the Halls of Titan, Neophyte, it's always nice to see a new face here!

 

That being said, I think this *might* happen for one reason - competitiveness. Currently as things stand, playing my Grey Knights, I get tabled with marines and their new weapon upgrades by turn 3, pretty easily (despite my best efforts, but I'm not the best player, admittedly). So extending the tide to Vehicles would make sense to keep in-line with the new weapon upgrade. The other effect is to promote the use of units we don't really see played on the TT - such as the GMNDK (I know with this new edition he's seeing far more play, but he still suffers from the same problems he had in 8th). As for the Dreadnought, that was more of a mental musing, it would be nice, but I don't see it happening. 

 

Keen to hear others thoughts!

 

 

As much as I've questioned this also, why didn't the tides extend to vehicles? Because the NDK is clearly a pure GK unit, completely fluff, with a literal GK strapped to the chassis. 

But, I know partly the reason. Balance most likely. Or, potentially, GW's lack of effort in balancing it with vehicles. So just as easy to exclude them. Who really knows.

 

 

Also, a side note that people may not have noticed, and it may not mean anything either but...

 

In the GK FAQ, the end paragraph of Psychic Focus eludes to some hopeful changes.

 

 

PSYCHIC FOCUS...

 

Rest assured that the psychic might

of this army

can be reflected using the additional updates and rules

found within Psychic Awakening: Ritual of the Damned, and we

will be building upon this even more in the 9th edition version of

Codex: Grey Knights.

 

The designers have perhaps dropped an Easter egg.

 

I will add this also. As for items and units like the doomglaive, I didn't own one, so I'm not that fussed it got "nerfed" (if that's what happened) But I own plenty of other stuff that I've bought and shelved for multiple editions. I play the hobby for one reason. I like challenging and competitive tactical games. Sure, they're cool looking models, and the best fluff for the GK. And sure, having a painted army is fun to play. But ultimately I could play with all grey models.

 

GW can take away, or they can add new stuff. Whatever they do, whether its the doomglaive getting a nerf or NDK's getting a buff. I just hope they balance it, and make redundancies.

That's all I ask.

 

And who knows, with all the stuff that RoTD added. And lets be honest. That's the best part of the GK army at the moment. They could very well do something like the Necrons thing and retool the faction from the ground up.