9th edition implications for the GK

[Reskin]

I was just thinking, we don't have the option to take extra warlord traits like many of the other factions for the CP.

 

What are the chances we get that option in the upcoming codex? Would that be too powerful for us, coz then I would sure as crap be taking FttF as a secondary trait along with Voldus.

[Corvus Fortis]

I was just thinking, we don't have the option to take extra warlord traits like many of the other factions for the CP.

 

 

Every faction is getting this, I doubt that we will be an exception.

 

hat are the chances we get that option in the upcoming codex? Would that be too powerful for us, coz then I would sure as crap be taking FttF as a secondary trait along with Voldus.

 

 

I don't see this being powerful at all. Both traits are mediocre at best. Other factions can get way nastier combos.

[Reskin]

 

I was just thinking, we don't have the option to take extra warlord traits like many of the other factions for the CP.

 

 

Every faction is getting this, I doubt that we will be an exception.

 

hat are the chances we get that option in the upcoming codex? Would that be too powerful for us, coz then I would sure as crap be taking FttF as a secondary trait along with Voldus.

 

 

I don't see this being powerful at all. Both traits are mediocre at best. Other factions can get way nastier combos.

 

I think they are the best we have, and they kinda work for what GK need, the other traits are just plain :cuss but that's by the by.

 

If every faction is getting that option, then I am a happy man! Perhaps we get a rework of traits then, did SM, SW and DW get reworked traits?

[Corvus Fortis]

I am 100% sure, that we are getting reworked/new traits. Standards changed drasticly through three years.

[Reskin]

I bloody hope so, and I hope they don't give the named characters :cuss ones.

[Waking Dreamer]

I tend to agree. 

 

Our current WLT is probably going to need to be upgraded to keep up to standard, not to mention maybe getting a few more with the new Brotherhood system.

 

Broadly speaking, if our GK Codex is even only 80% as strong as the current SM codex, we would automatically be in at least low A-tier, very high B-tier for current army meta strength.  

[Reskin]

I tend to agree. 

 

Our current WLT is probably going to need to be upgraded to keep up to standard, not to mention maybe getting a few more with the new Brotherhood system.

 

Broadly speaking, if our GK Codex is even only 80% as strong as the current SM codex, we would automatically be in at least low A-tier, very high B-tier for current army meta strength.  

 

I hope so, I mean I'd like some T5 models and all that jazz too. But to be honest. I just want to be competitive, when I field my army and my overall skill determines who wins and who loses. I'd like a game where I don't go into it thinking "if only I could lose marginally" as in my best result I could hope for is a minor loss.

 

I would like the psychic phase and cc to accurately represent our chapter. And not be so "swingy" with so much variation on damage. D3 or D6 mortal wounds need more redundancy and D3 nemesis weapons needs more redundancy. D3+1 or something, At least then I'm killing primaris marines without a problem, it feels so bad rolling a 1 on the D3 damage roll with this epicly rare force weapon.

Before you say chaplain, my rebuttal would be that, we shouldn't need characters to fix these fundamental issues. A single strike team for all intents and purposes should be able to function independently. And they do.

I refer to the Emperors Gift by ADB. And Hyperion's squad Castian 

 

Whatever the case may be. Consistency and reliability is what I would like.

 

Also, did most of the SM chapters/supplements keep the things they added in PA? If so, that bodes well for us and keeping Tides of the Warp.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Reskin

[Waking Dreamer]

I'm confident we will keep Warp Tides, but ideally they should be tweaked to synergise with all GK units while getting a little stronger to improve our weaknesses.

- Tide of Escalation = +1MW for Smite, minimum 3 MWs for D6 Smite equivalents.

- Tide of Convergence = +1S, +1AP, +1D for all Psi weapons (includes GK Vehicles).

- Tide of Shadows = The same as now, but also includes all GK vehicle Transports and Flyers.

- Tide of Fury = re-roll 1s to wound for all NFWs, while adding 1 to the damage (eg. D3+1, D6+1, 3+1, 4+1 damage).

Edited November 29, 2020 by Waking Dreamer

[Reskin]

I'm confident we will keep Warp Tides, but ideally they should be tweaked to synergise with all GK units while getting a little stronger to improve our weaknesses.

 

E.g.

 

Tide of Fury = re-roll 1s to wound for NFWs, while adding 1 to the damage (D3+1, D6+1, 3+1, 4+1 damage).

Tide of Escalation = +1MW for Smite, minimum 3 MWs for D6 Smite equivalents.

nah honestly, our smites need to be 2 or 3 wounds minimum to kill a marine without tide of escalation, dont half the marines now have 3 wounds and T5? Dont forget admech 3 wounds.

Some ork units 3 wound or 4 wounds.

 

1 smite should be able to kill one model. 2+1 or 3+1 is what I would be happy with, obviously the greedy side of me is 3+1 but that gets balanced out if our casting value increases each attempt. If they make it so it doesn't increase like in 8th, then 2+1 would be fine. The +1 being from Escalation.

 

I do love your take on tide of fury though, combining the two things we need! 

[Gnomeo]

Sorry chaps I disagree with grey knights requiring lots of buff's to make good. I personally am finding my grey knights to be super competitive and have only dropped a single game in 9th. I do feel they are the hardest army to play well that I own.

 

I totally agree tha are warlord traits need some tweaking. I would love lore master to allow an additional cast. Fttf I would love to see "when this and up to 2 other units use the teleport strike ability they can arrive turn 1". And of course the other 4 need a lot of work.

I do hope we dont get the primaris treatment that all other space marines get I feel it would detract from are uniqueness. Have to say deathwatch don't feel special now

[Skywrath]

I'm confident we will keep Warp Tides, but ideally they should be tweaked to synergise with all GK units while getting a little stronger to improve our weaknesses.

 

E.g.

 

Tide of Fury = re-roll 1s to wound for NFWs, while adding 1 to the damage (D3+1, D6+1, 3+1, 4+1 damage).

Tide of Escalation = +1MW for Smite, minimum 3 MWs for D6 Smite equivalents.

 

I have a suspicion that we will be seeing slightly different Warp Tides. For instance, one of the new necron Strategems is called Solar Pulse. That strategem strips cover from us, and stops us recieving the benefit from it. Very thematic, as the opposite of shadow is light, but assuming that isn't GW typical quality control, it kinda shows which way they are heading. Bit of an unrelated side-note and a question: Seeing how Tide of Shadows is a magic effect, and that ability strips it, technically as it's a strategem, and a strategem technically takes priority, what happens if you have two instances of cover? For instance, I gated my Strikes on top of a building, while with Tide of Shadows active. So by that wording, it should strip only one instance of it, ensuring we still have one instance of the cover. That's probably a prime example of why I think at least Tide of Shadows will be changed.

 

That being said, we should get regular smites back - the DD3 mortal wounds if less than 12, and the DD6 if it's 12. Of course there are many ways to ensure we will get it off, such as Empyric Surge and the Sanctic Shard from a librarian (+3, so a 9, which then again isn't easy), but 1 damage smites - why are we still stuck in 8th, when we are supposed to eat every psyker alive in the universe?

 

Regarding your hypothesis - what do you think the shooting tide will do? With the recent changes to the psycannons of the VLR can we see 4 damage psycannons? Oh and yeah, vehicles should benefit from tides, ofc.

 

I am 100% sure, that we are getting reworked/new traits. Standards changed drasticly through three years.

 

I found an interesting pattern that whatever the old standard was fro the GK, the marines picked that up as a new one. Example: Sanctuary - Psychic Fortress for the new marines. Same spell, technically, but acts like an aura within 6". First into the Fray (marines didn't have a charge WL trait if memory serves before 9th) now they have The Imperium's sword. So whatever we will pick up when our codex drops, you can be pretty damn sure the marines will have some variation of it, in the next one.

 

Corvus is right,we will be getting new traits. While I am very apathetic towards the fact we haven't been updated with the wounds, the weapon changes pretty much go over our head, and we aren't rolled into CSM, I also see a good side to this where we are treated like marines+. 

[Skywrath]

Sorry chaps I disagree with grey knights requiring lots of buff's to make good. I personally am finding my grey knights to be super competitive and have only dropped a single game in 9th. I do feel they are the hardest army to play well that I own.

 

I totally agree tha are warlord traits need some tweaking. I would love lore master to allow an additional cast. Fttf I would love to see "when this and up to 2 other units use the teleport strike ability they can arrive turn 1". And of course the other 4 need a lot of work.

I do hope we dont get the primaris treatment that all other space marines get I feel it would detract from are uniqueness. Have to say deathwatch don't feel special now

 

As a Deathwatch player - you couldn't be more wrong. There is A LOT of synergies they can come up with, such as a spell that makes a unit untargetable if it's outside 12" and you have the option to give pretty much any unit ObSec due to the Kill-Teams. Not to mention they can adopt any chapter trait for that round for one unit, and switch doctrines at will (even inside one). Deathwatch are going to be one of the top dogs to beat this edition. 

 

I want Grey Knights to have primaris - I thought we were competitive with 9th, but after a few games against various SM and Necron players (even chaos), we get tabled pretty confidently by T3. I'd recommend that you play against a few of those. Not to say we CAN'T be competitive, but we lack the edge that makes marines/chaos broken at the moment - the weapon upgrades, on the account that we don't use them. Not to mention we don't have a lot of AP attached to our weaponry, the maximum we can give something is -2 (to our psycannons), -3 if he has the chaplain litany. What we need to make us good is more weapons (or revamped datasheets) that have AP attached to it. Going back to the example of the psycannon - you got a giant cannon infused with psychic might that will probably hit as hard as a plasma blast. Give that -3 or -4. Solved. Psilencers could get -1 baseline for sure. 

 

With regards to units having more than one cast - agree. I think Paladins, Grand Masters, the Techmarine and the Brother-Captain should be able to know two spells. You would think in a lifetime of being a Grey Knight, they would have picked up some new tricks, no?

[Corvus Fortis]

Broadly speaking, if our GK Codex is even only 80% as strong as the current SM codex, we would automatically be in at least low A-tier, very high B-tier for current army meta strength.  

 

 

We could be A-tier with proper upgrades, but GW decided that FAQ is too much work. 3-wound terminators with obsec, -1 to-wound, -1 damage in shooting, always in cover and 6+ FnP with an ability to revive one for free every phase would be superhard to remove from an objective. I could easily see 30 terminator lists. D2 psycannons, even with 1 less shot, finally could kill MEQs and damage light vehicles. With Psychic onslaught/tide of convergence, we can deal some serious damage. Finally, +1S on NFWs would be a huge boost to our close combat. But, alas, we have to wait. I still hope for a early codex, maybe, even in the next wave after DA supplyment/xenos.

 

 I just want to be competitive

 

 

We are competitive. Not A-tier, but we are proven to be able to win tournaments/get into top-3.

 

Sorry chaps I disagree with grey knights requiring lots of buff's to make good. 

 

 

Agreed. We just need to be brought in line with other marines. We have a very strong potential for beta-strike, good obsec troops, mobility and punch. The problem is that we are still a bit fragile for our pts and very CP hungry to actually do damage/survive. +1 wound, new apothecary, ability to take High Paladin as a chaplain, who chants on 2+, D2 psycannons. We need just a little buff to wreck faces. And yes, with the new wisdom of the ancients, we are finally getting a reroll to-wound in the shooting phase. I also wish sactuary to become AoE with 4++ limit and 6" range - just like the marine's one.

 

So by that wording, it should strip only one instance of it, ensuring we still have one instance of the cover.

 

 

There's no such thing as "instance of cover". Cover never stacks. You either get it or you don't. Solar Flare removes everything, leaving your unit in the open.

 

With the recent changes to the psycannons of the VLR can we see 4 damage psycannons?

 

 

Only if heavy psycannon is going to D3 and Tide of Convergence affect NDKs. Which won't be of much help. I'd like to see purgators with 12 attacks, 8 -1 3. They will do lots of damage without any buffs just thanks to number of shots. 

 

I want Grey Knights to have primaris - I thought we were competitive with 9th, but after a few games against various SM and Necron players (even chaos), we get tabled pretty confidently by T3. 

 

 

They are fresh new top-tier armies with lots of tricks. There's no suprise, we cannot easily beat them. But there are lots of other armies we still can punch in the face. 

[Reskin]

 

They are fresh new top-tier armies with lots of tricks. There's no suprise, we cannot easily beat them. But there are lots of other armies we still can punch in the face.

You mean Orks right? Sure you mean Orks, or Daemons? which one can we punch in the face? I don't get to play either of them, so I turn up to games, set my models up, then call GG and give my opponent a 100-0 victory, its quicker and easier that way. I pack up and go home.

 

 

We are competitive. Not A-tier, but we are proven to be able to win tournaments/get into top-3.

One dude, won 1 tournament, its an anomaly. If you start seeing 7/10 armies in the top 10 in tournaments, then you'll know we're competitive, at the moment, we are gutter trash. Absolute gutter trash.

 

And who and what are you playing against? I just vs'd chaos Knights and got stomped. Even trying to play the objective game. And that's saying something, Knights suck this edition against normal SM.

[Waking Dreamer]

I think, as pointed out there is a subtle, but important difference between a strong codex, and an easier codex to win with (i.e. a strong codex that STILL needs a lot of thinking / correct order of buffs at the right time). 

 

A codex can be very powerful but still be more difficult to play with, because it involves more thought and planning besides correct priority targeting. GKs as an army are designed to be active in ALL the phases, while still only having a low model-count - this automatically makes it a hard / easily-punishing army to play with. And I think...that's actually fine - if you have a few different builds to still make it competitive (and to reiterate the point, "competitive" doesn't actually have to mean "easier" to win).

 

The SM Codex as a standard is a very strong codex (strongest actually), but it is also relatively easy to play. Why is this? The base profile for many units / wargear is good to excellent, the points you are paying for them is at a discount (compared to other armies' unit profiles/points),  plus they have excellent stratagem / doctrines / aura buffs to make them even stronger, that are also relatively easy to come by.

 

^ This wont be the GK codex (imo). The SM codex will probably be the ceiling meta for quite some time, the Necron Codex was shown to be very strong as well (can hang with SMs) - but not SM Codex strong. And the Necrons had a whole host of new / powerful models produced and released, that GW definitely had great interest in people wanting to play with, so that they would also have the need to buy them ($$$). Realistically, in my mind there is no reasonable intention for GW to want to buff GKs to go "toe-to-toe" with their SM/Primaris codex by sheer buffed up unit / weapon / smite profiles. it doesn't make sense when they still have the same 3 GK box-kits they intend to sell - to make a full GK army. What I am personally expecting is a Harlequins-type-of-strong army. I think that is the most realistic expectation for a very powerful GK army. Right now,  Harlequins along with the new Necrons are the strongest Xenos armies - that can actually hang with competitive SM codex armies (though still overall weaker).  

 

On the Tabletop Titans channel (the hosts are multiple Tournament champions / LVO ranked around 10th & 50th / 9Ed playtesters), a competitive Harlequins army won their channel's mini tournament - beating the competitive Custodes <DREADHOST>, White Scars (Primaris Bikers/Invictor Warsuits) and Death Guard (inherit resilience suited for 9Ed) armies. And as far as I know it's still undefeated in all of their channel games thus far.

 

Does that mean that a Harlequins army is easier to win with? Actually nope. One of their subscribers during their live chat, admittedly said that he brought that exact army list to his local games - and yet has never won a single game in all of 9Ed. It's undeniably an A-tier army list (even amongst SM standard), but also very hard to play that you could get a C-tier performance from an average player...that's where I can see Codex GKs. There is little chance our unit and weapon profiles are going to change so much so, that  they will be near as efficient as SM Codex Primaris (eg. Bladeguard Vets / Eradicators / Outrider Bikes), or become that good at killing them...without active buffs. Our main chance is with expertly planned and executed synergies (eg. Warp Tides + Psychic Powers + Stratagems + Brotherhood buff (?) ) - ON TOP of our maybe slightly better than now Unit / weapon profiles. Realistically ....that's what I think we could have. And like I said at the beginning, I'm kinda fine with that....

[Gnomeo]

I think, as pointed out there is a subtle, but important difference between a strong codex, and an easier codex to win with (i.e. a strong codex that STILL needs a lot of thinking / correct order of buffs at the right time).

 

A codex can be very powerful but still be more difficult to play with, because it involves more thought and planning besides correct priority targeting. GKs as an army are designed to be active in ALL the phases, while still only having a low model-count - this automatically makes it a hard / easily-punishing army to play with. And I think...that's actually fine - if you have a few different builds to still make it competitive (and to reiterate the point, "competitive" doesn't actually have to mean "easier" to win).

 

The SM Codex as a standard is a very strong codex (strongest actually), but it is also relatively easy to play. Why is this? The base profile for many units / wargear is good to excellent, the points you are paying for them is at a discount (compared to other armies' unit profiles/points), plus they have excellent stratagem / doctrines / aura buffs to make them even stronger, that are also relatively easy to come by.

 

^ This wont be the GK codex (imo). The SM codex will probably be the ceiling meta for quite some time, the Necron Codex was shown to be very strong as well (can hang with SMs) - but not SM Codex strong. And the Necrons had a whole host of new / powerful models produced and released, that GW definitely had great interest in people wanting to play with, so that they would also have the need to buy them ($$$). Realistically, in my mind there is no reasonable intention for GW to want to buff GKs to go "toe-to-toe" with their SM/Primaris codex by sheer buffed up unit / weapon / smite profiles. it doesn't make sense when they still have the same 3 GK box-kits they intend to sell - to make a full GK army. What I am personally expecting is a Harlequins-type-of-strong army. I think that is the most realistic expectation for a very powerful GK army. Right now, Harlequins along with the new Necrons are the strongest Xenos armies - that can actually hang with competitive SM codex armies (though still overall weaker).

 

On the Tabletop Titans channel (the hosts are multiple Tournament champions / LVO ranked around 10th & 50th / 9Ed playtesters), a competitive Harlequins army won their channel's mini tournament - beating the competitive Custodes , White Scars (Primaris Bikers/Invictor Warsuits) and Death Guard (inherit resilience suited for 9Ed) armies. And as far as I know it's still undefeated in all of their channel games thus far.

 

Does that mean that a Harlequins army is easier to win with? Actually nope. One of their subscribers during their live chat, admittedly said that he brought that exact army list to his local games - and yet has never won a single game in all of 9Ed. It's undeniably an A-tier army list (even amongst SM standard), but also very hard to play that you could get a C-tier performance from an average player...that's where I can see Codex GKs. There is little chance our unit and weapon profiles are going to change so much so, that they will be near as efficient as SM Codex Primaris (eg. Bladeguard Vets / Eradicators / Outrider Bikes), or become that good at killing them...without active buffs. Our main chance is with expertly planned and executed synergies (eg. Warp Tides + Psychic Powers + Stratagems + Brotherhood buff (?) ) - ON TOP of our maybe slightly better than now Unit / weapon profiles. Realistically ....that's what I think we could have. And like I said at the beginning, I'm kinda fine with that....

I could not agree more with this post very well put.

 

 

 

Sorry chaps I disagree with grey knights requiring lots of buff's to make good. I personally am finding my grey knights to be super competitive and have only dropped a single game in 9th. I do feel they are the hardest army to play well that I own.

I totally agree tha are warlord traits need some tweaking. I would love lore master to allow an additional cast. Fttf I would love to see "when this and up to 2 other units use the teleport strike ability they can arrive turn 1". And of course the other 4 need a lot of work.

I do hope we dont get the primaris treatment that all other space marines get I feel it would detract from are uniqueness. Have to say deathwatch don't feel special now

 

As a Deathwatch player - you couldn't be more wrong. There is A LOT of synergies they can come up with, such as a spell that makes a unit untargetable if it's outside 12" and you have the option to give pretty much any unit ObSec due to the Kill-Teams. Not to mention they can adopt any chapter trait for that round for one unit, and switch doctrines at will (even inside one). Deathwatch are going to be one of the top dogs to beat this edition.

 

I want Grey Knights to have primaris - I thought we were competitive with 9th, but after a few games against various SM and Necron players (even chaos), we get tabled pretty confidently by T3. I'd recommend that you play against a few of those. Not to say we CAN'T be competitive, but we lack the edge that makes marines/chaos broken at the moment - the weapon upgrades, on the account that we don't use them. Not to mention we don't have a lot of AP attached to our weaponry, the maximum we can give something is -2 (to our psycannons), -3 if he has the chaplain litany. What we need to make us good is more weapons (or revamped datasheets) that have AP attached to it. Going back to the example of the psycannon - you got a giant cannon infused with psychic might that will probably hit as hard as a plasma blast. Give that -3 or -4. Solved. Psilencers could get -1 baseline for sure.

 

With regards to units having more than one cast - agree. I think Paladins, Grand Masters, the Techmarine and the Brother-Captain should be able to know two spells. You would think in a lifetime of being a Grey Knight, they would have picked up some new tricks, no?

My mention of deathwatch wasnt that they are bad quite the opposite never been stronger. As a deathwatch player myself as well my comment was more on how they feel to me. And that I dont get the same feeling of uniqueness. FYI I have been playing them since 3rd when they were a single unit in a white dwarf.

 

With regards to playing other armies currently what I mostly play against is marines, necrons, chaos, guard, gsc and orks. For me the hardest match up is guard due to the amount of ignore los they have.

 

With regards to future codex if all we get is the extra wound and a tweak to warlord traits I would be very happy. Especially having played through the pre psychic awakening days of 8th (damn that was rough)

Edited November 20, 2020 by Gnomeo

[Corvus Fortis]

ne dude, won 1 tournament, its an anomaly. If you start seeing 7/10 armies in the top 10 in tournaments, then you'll know we're competitive, at the moment, we are gutter trash. Absolute gutter trash.

 

 

Go to 40kstats and see that GK have 4-5 entries in top-4. Some factions doesn't have them at all. And that's not only my statement. Yesterday's GK metawatch showed that GK are in the center of the table with about 50% win rate at the tournaments. I played enough with GK when everyone agreed that they were gutter trash and worst faction in the game. Now they are much-much better. Sorry, if you don't have any success playing a faction, it doesn't mean, that it is a trash.

[Icosiel]

I am loving this whole discussion.

 

I want to chime in and jump on the GK Are Currently Competitive boat. I'm actually really pleased with where we're at right now. We're a difficult army to play, but when played well we can beat almost any opponent.

 

I played throughout the entirety of 8th edition. Almost a game a week. For the majority of that time, Grey Knights sucked. I could try my absolute hardest and maybe only have a 30% chance of victory. We absolutely needed a buff from those dark days. But even back then, I still loved playing them. It was an uphill battle that forced me to become a better player. When I went to LVO this year, I brought my best list possible and practiced for weeks in advance, and I went 3-1!

 

Nowadays, our guys are actually a good army. When I would lose in 8th edition, there was a pretty good chance that it wasn't my fault. Now when I lose, I'm much more aware of my own mistakes and strategic blunders, and it's great. We don't kick our opponent's teeth in by default, but we make our own fate now. I am having such a good time with this army in 9th edition so far. I feel more in control of my silver boys than I ever have. Personally, I really hope we don't get too many more buffs. Obviously I really want our wound increases, that'll be great, but other than that I think we're in a really good spot that rewards thoughtful, considerate play and doesn't punish us too heavily for bringing units that we think are fun.

[Skywrath]

 

I think, as pointed out there is a subtle, but important difference between a strong codex, and an easier codex to win with (i.e. a strong codex that STILL needs a lot of thinking / correct order of buffs at the right time).

 

A codex can be very powerful but still be more difficult to play with, because it involves more thought and planning besides correct priority targeting. GKs as an army are designed to be active in ALL the phases, while still only having a low model-count - this automatically makes it a hard / easily-punishing army to play with. And I think...that's actually fine - if you have a few different builds to still make it competitive (and to reiterate the point, "competitive" doesn't actually have to mean "easier" to win).

 

The SM Codex as a standard is a very strong codex (strongest actually), but it is also relatively easy to play. Why is this? The base profile for many units / wargear is good to excellent, the points you are paying for them is at a discount (compared to other armies' unit profiles/points), plus they have excellent stratagem / doctrines / aura buffs to make them even stronger, that are also relatively easy to come by.

 

^ This wont be the GK codex (imo). The SM codex will probably be the ceiling meta for quite some time, the Necron Codex was shown to be very strong as well (can hang with SMs) - but not SM Codex strong. And the Necrons had a whole host of new / powerful models produced and released, that GW definitely had great interest in people wanting to play with, so that they would also have the need to buy them ($$$). Realistically, in my mind there is no reasonable intention for GW to want to buff GKs to go "toe-to-toe" with their SM/Primaris codex by sheer buffed up unit / weapon / smite profiles. it doesn't make sense when they still have the same 3 GK box-kits they intend to sell - to make a full GK army. What I am personally expecting is a Harlequins-type-of-strong army. I think that is the most realistic expectation for a very powerful GK army. Right now, Harlequins along with the new Necrons are the strongest Xenos armies - that can actually hang with competitive SM codex armies (though still overall weaker).

 

On the Tabletop Titans channel (the hosts are multiple Tournament champions / LVO ranked around 10th & 50th / 9Ed playtesters), a competitive Harlequins army won their channel's mini tournament - beating the competitive Custodes , White Scars (Primaris Bikers/Invictor Warsuits) and Death Guard (inherit resilience suited for 9Ed) armies. And as far as I know it's still undefeated in all of their channel games thus far.

 

Does that mean that a Harlequins army is easier to win with? Actually nope. One of their subscribers during their live chat, admittedly said that he brought that exact army list to his local games - and yet has never won a single game in all of 9Ed. It's undeniably an A-tier army list (even amongst SM standard), but also very hard to play that you could get a C-tier performance from an average player...that's where I can see Codex GKs. There is little chance our unit and weapon profiles are going to change so much so, that they will be near as efficient as SM Codex Primaris (eg. Bladeguard Vets / Eradicators / Outrider Bikes), or become that good at killing them...without active buffs. Our main chance is with expertly planned and executed synergies (eg. Warp Tides + Psychic Powers + Stratagems + Brotherhood buff (?) ) - ON TOP of our maybe slightly better than now Unit / weapon profiles. Realistically ....that's what I think we could have. And like I said at the beginning, I'm kinda fine with that....

I could not agree more with this post very well put.

 

 

Sorry chaps I disagree with grey knights requiring lots of buff's to make good. I personally am finding my grey knights to be super competitive and have only dropped a single game in 9th. I do feel they are the hardest army to play well that I own.

I totally agree tha are warlord traits need some tweaking. I would love lore master to allow an additional cast. Fttf I would love to see "when this and up to 2 other units use the teleport strike ability they can arrive turn 1". And of course the other 4 need a lot of work.

I do hope we dont get the primaris treatment that all other space marines get I feel it would detract from are uniqueness. Have to say deathwatch don't feel special now

As a Deathwatch player - you couldn't be more wrong. There is A LOT of synergies they can come up with, such as a spell that makes a unit untargetable if it's outside 12" and you have the option to give pretty much any unit ObSec due to the Kill-Teams. Not to mention they can adopt any chapter trait for that round for one unit, and switch doctrines at will (even inside one). Deathwatch are going to be one of the top dogs to beat this edition.

 

I want Grey Knights to have primaris - I thought we were competitive with 9th, but after a few games against various SM and Necron players (even chaos), we get tabled pretty confidently by T3. I'd recommend that you play against a few of those. Not to say we CAN'T be competitive, but we lack the edge that makes marines/chaos broken at the moment - the weapon upgrades, on the account that we don't use them. Not to mention we don't have a lot of AP attached to our weaponry, the maximum we can give something is -2 (to our psycannons), -3 if he has the chaplain litany. What we need to make us good is more weapons (or revamped datasheets) that have AP attached to it. Going back to the example of the psycannon - you got a giant cannon infused with psychic might that will probably hit as hard as a plasma blast. Give that -3 or -4. Solved. Psilencers could get -1 baseline for sure.

 

With regards to units having more than one cast - agree. I think Paladins, Grand Masters, the Techmarine and the Brother-Captain should be able to know two spells. You would think in a lifetime of being a Grey Knight, they would have picked up some new tricks, no?

My mention of deathwatch wasnt that they are bad quite the opposite never been stronger. As a deathwatch player myself as well my comment was more on how they feel to me. And that I dont get the same feeling of uniqueness. FYI I have been playing them since 3rd when they were a single unit in a white dwarf.

 

With regards to playing other armies currently what I mostly play against is marines, necrons, chaos, guard, gsc and orks. For me the hardest match up is guard due to the amount of ignore los they have.

 

With regards to future codex if all we get is the extra wound and a tweak to warlord traits I would be very happy. Especially having played through the pre psychic awakening days of 8th (damn that was rough)

 

 

Is that mainly because of the loss of SIA? Personally, as a new player to Deathwatch, admittedly, I found they were unique depending on what they can do, and not because they got primaris. But an opinion is an opinion, nonetheless. 

 

With regards to Grey Knights, I would be happy with that tbh. But I think we'll get more than those updates, then this forum will light up with the amount of discussion about that :)

 

I am loving this whole discussion.

 

I want to chime in and jump on the GK Are Currently Competitive boat. I'm actually really pleased with where we're at right now. We're a difficult army to play, but when played well we can beat almost any opponent.

 

Very true. Part of me wonders whether that's because barely anyone plays Grey Knights so people don't have an idea of what we can do.

 

I played throughout the entirety of 8th edition. Almost a game a week. For the majority of that time, Grey Knights sucked. I could try my absolute hardest and maybe only have a 30% chance of victory. We absolutely needed a buff from those dark days. But even back then, I still loved playing them. It was an uphill battle that forced me to become a better player. When I went to LVO this year, I brought my best list possible and practiced for weeks in advance, and I went 3-1!

 

Grats dude! But your top line is how I feel when I'm up against marines and factions that got their weapons update. More specifically the necron player I play with regularly.

 

Nowadays, our guys are actually a good army. When I would lose in 8th edition, there was a pretty good chance that it wasn't my fault. Now when I lose, I'm much more aware of my own mistakes and strategic blunders, and it's great. We don't kick our opponent's teeth in by default, but we make our own fate now. I am having such a good time with this army in 9th edition so far. I feel more in control of my silver boys than I ever have. Personally, I really hope we don't get too many more buffs. Obviously I really want our wound increases, that'll be great, but other than that I think we're in a really good spot that rewards thoughtful, considerate play and doesn't punish us too heavily for bringing units that we think are fun.

 

That being said, that abhor the witch secondary needs to GO. Remove that, and that would go a long way to improving our competitive potential. It doesn't make sense to me that GW put that secondary for every psyker unit you kill you get 3 points. Most factions will bring 1, maybe 2. GK and TS armies everyone is a psyker, so yeah.. But I'm with you on this with how we are more in control of our armies.

 

In blue.

[Reskin]

Yeah but compared to GK, Skywrath, where every unit from your GM to a strike squad has the same loadout, going to DW. It must feel like the world is your oyster, and the level of customisation is beyond belief.

 

Do you think that might be the case?

 

Tbh, I'm so ticked at GW for their laziness. This whole "pandemic" thing is little excuse, people can work from home. The rules depart certainly doesn't need to go to the "factory" to clock on to work each day. A Laptop, microsoft teams and internet and they're online.

If Formula 1 can be up and running with over 1000 employees each team, and most are based in England. I don't see why GW cant get their together.

 

Side note, for "the most elite force in the imperium" we don't feel very elite, how does low model count equate to elite? What makes us elite?

 

Elite is a team of Navy seals or S.A.S successfully completing (winning) their missions with a very high degree of success. Almost flawless. 

 

 

Elite; noun; a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Reskin

[Skywrath]

 

Yeah but compared to GK, Skywrath, where every unit from your GM to a strike squad has the same loadout, going to DW. It must feel like the world is your oyster, and the level of customisation is beyond belief.

 

I never said that I want to give GK marine weaponry. I only said I wanted to give GK primaris. So give us the model, but buff/change our weaponry in tune to what grey knights used. So marines had a lascannon for instance, now it's called a laser destroyer. We have psilencers give us the GK appropriate upgraded one. See the connection now?

 

Do you think that might be the case?

 

Tbh, I'm so ticked at GW for their laziness. This whole "pandemic" thing is little excuse, people can work from home. The rules depart certainly doesn't need to go to the "factory" to clock on to work each day. A Laptop, microsoft teams and internet and they're online.

 

So am I. I'm still marvelling how they took the time to update chaos, but couldn't find the time to write a 6 word sentence upgrading our marines to 2W and Terminators to 3W. Unless we don't use our current models anymore in 9th?

 

If Formula 1 can be up and running with over 1000 employees each team, and most are based in England. I don't see why GW cant get their together.

 

Side note, for "the most elite force in the imperium" we don't feel very elite, how does low model count equate to elite? What makes us elite?

 

We are still elite from the fluff perspective, how our psychic powers are absolutely amazing, and how our paladins still remain unshiftable bricks. Plus the GMNDK's are awesome.

 

Elite is a team of Navy seals or S.A.S successfully completing (winning) their missions with a very high degree of success. Almost flawless. 

 

 

Elite; noun; a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

 

 Definitions won't do you any good when it comes to a company that routinely throws those definitions out the window, with things like Psilencers, and the Toxskin bells for plague marines (correctly spelt as toxin).

 

In blue.

[Reskin]

 

 

Yeah but compared to GK, Skywrath, where every unit from your GM to a strike squad has the same loadout, going to DW. It must feel like the world is your oyster, and the level of customisation is beyond belief.

 

I never said that I want to give GK marine weaponry. I only said I wanted to give GK primaris. So give us the model, but buff/change our weaponry in tune to what grey knights used. So marines had a lascannon for instance, now it's called a laser destroyer. We have psilencers give us the GK appropriate upgraded one. See the connection now?

I was referring to your DW comments about unique customisation... in comparison to GK, they are the other end of the spectrum

[Waking Dreamer]

I totally agree tha are warlord traits need some tweaking. I would love lore master to allow an additional cast. Fttf I would love to see "when this and up to 2 other units use the teleport strike ability they can arrive turn 1". And of course the other 4 need a lot of work.

 

I certainly hope the inherit WLTs our named Characters get, keep their original themes but get buffed to make choosing them as WLs worthwile.

 

Something like:

 

Warrior Amid the Warp (Daemon-Slayer)

- At the end of any of your Movement phases, you can remove your WL from the battlefield, then immediately set the model anywhere that is more than 9" from any enemy models. In addition, if your WL wounds a DAEMON in the Fight phase, your opponent must subtract 1 from any invulnerable saving throws made against the attack.

 

Hammer of Righteousness 

-  If your WL successfully charged or preformed a Heroic Intervention this turn, select an enemy unit within 1" of him, that enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. Additionally, you can add 1 to wound rolls for your WL in the following Fight phase.

 

Unyielding Anvil

- Friendly GREY KNIGHTS units that are within 6" of your WL automatically pass Morale tests; and each time a model in those units would lose a wound, roll one D6: on a 6, that wound is not lost.

 

Lore Master

- Your WL knows one additional psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, and can attempt to cast an additional psychic power from that same discipline. (As already suggested earlier)

 

Nemesis Lord

 - You can add 1 to the Damage characteristic of your Warlord’s melee weapons; and an unmodified wound roll of 5 or 6 inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any other damage.

 

^ For me, those changes to the current WLTs would definitely make them more interesting. Particular for Draigo...imagine having our Supreme GM, traversing the Warp to relentlessly pursue any enemy target on the table, worthy of their demise at the edge of his blade!

Edited November 29, 2020 by Waking Dreamer

[Reskin]

you didn't fix first to the fray, and all those except Loremaster are weak, a 5+++ is standard.

 

I get that you're aren't trying to be greedy, but we wont get anywhere with those, we seriously need help in the movement department, and more teleporting. Our charges need to be buffed, or our first to the fray needs to be buffed, rerolls and +2 on the charge or something. 

 

And other then the FNP bubble, all the rest still aren't worth taking. And I don't think we need the pass morale tests and FNP, the chaplain provides both of those to some degree. And at some point, hopefully the apothecary.

 

I like the loremaster one because it means I don't need to spend cp for an extra cast, or I get that free extra cast, and then I can spend Cp for an additional one on another unit as well. :D

[Gnomeo]

So with blood angels previews coming out. The sanguinor has a really nice ability that lets him appear in combat. What are peoples thoughts on draigo having something similar?