9th edition implications for the GK

[Captain Coolpants]

Seeee I definitely feel differently, for shooting it was just re-rolls, but the re-roll you needed was dependent on your BS. So some models re-rolled better than others. This one I agree isn't necessary now as everything can get re-rolls these days because of auras.

 

 

The high weapons skill though, that had a much bigger impact in game, and the impact it made, made a lot more sense. The better the WS, the harder it was to hit YOU in combat, it didn't just affect how you hit, which makes all the sense in the world.

A basic shlub like me is going to have a hard time even landing a hit on a professional boxer for example.

I really liked this mechanic.

 

But I guess having everyone hit on a fixed number speeds the game up slightly.

 

Although saying that, the chart was really barely more complicated than the current strength vs toughness to wound chart we still use now.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Corvus Fortis]

 

EDIT: And another one from SoB article: * In the new edition, your charge roll has to be sufficient to reach ALL of the units you have declared a charge against, otherwise your charge is unsuccessful and no models are moved."

Edited June 18, 2020 by Corvus Fortis

[Valerian]

Good changes. I like both of those (the changes to Character targeting, as well as multiple charges).

[angrom]

This is big implications for greyknights though. The paladin bomb might be partially invalidated by the new look out sir.

Our army is moslty characters with some key units. And now we cant send lets say a paladin unit in front of our lines with gates to use the bolter shower without leaving our characters in the back vulnerable. I guess that will require us to rethink our strategy.

[Valerian]

This is big implications for greyknights though. The paladin bomb might be partially invalidated by the new look out sir.

Our army is moslty characters with some key units. And now we cant send lets say a paladin unit in front of our lines with gates to use the bolter shower without leaving our characters in the back vulnerable. I guess that will require us to rethink our strategy.

Send the Paladins forward, but just be sure to keep a Strike Squad nearby to babysit the Character group left behind.

[Valerian]

But, you’re right. We’ll have to rethink how we create lists, and how we play, anyway.

[Skywrath]

Word barrage aside (where were all the full stops in the sentences?!?), if this truly encourages diverse lists, then I'm all for it. Looks like I have to eat my previous words that we are locked into the paladin bomb archetype.

 

*starts munching on previous words*

[Corvus Fortis]

if this truly encourages diverse lists, then I'm all for it

 

 

I am afraid, that the problem of paladin bomb is not that is the best lists and we just throw away all other variations, but because it is the only viable top-tier build. I simply look at our units and cannot imagine what else we can do (aside from psycannon spam, but I am still not sold on it).

 

And I don't believe, that it hits paladin bomb hard. On the contrary it is even more encourages double paladin bomb. 

 

Anyway, I think, GK were not hit with these changes as much as other armies. Our heroes pretty capable surviving a lascannon in a face if something goes wrong. We just have to think more about taking a dedicated bodyguard to our characters. But in general, we maybe the last faction, that can go herohammer, left.

[Seizeman]

Everything will depend on how much points go up and whether GMNDKs (or hopefully any other unit) become playable or not. If our army becomes just the same but smaller, that means less strike squads, and if we combine that with the necessity of having something extra on the table to grab objectives/protect our characters, that could leave us lacking when it comes to deep striking potential. On the bright side, our characters are more durable than most, and the points we pay for their terminator armour will be more justified than before.

 

The good news is, with smaller boards and less enemy units, the paladin strategy of dominating the middle of the table will become even more powerful. New terrain and overwatch rules are quite favorable to that strategy too.

 

We'll have to see how reserves rules work to have a somewhat definite picture.

[Skywrath]

 

if this truly encourages diverse lists, then I'm all for it

 

 

I am afraid, that the problem of paladin bomb is not that is the best lists and we just throw away all other variations, but because it is the only viable top-tier build. I simply look at our units and cannot imagine what else we can do (aside from psycannon spam, but I am still not sold on it).

 

And I don't believe, that it hits paladin bomb hard. On the contrary it is even more encourages double paladin bomb. 

 

Anyway, I think, GK were not hit with these changes as much as other armies. Our heroes pretty capable surviving a lascannon in a face if something goes wrong. We just have to think more about taking a dedicated bodyguard to our characters. But in general, we maybe the last faction, that can go herohammer, left.

 

 

Oh, sorry, I never meant to imply that it nerfs the paladin bomb, or that it's a bad list - I just wanted to say that if this presents a chance for other competitive lists to appear, I'm for it. Especially with the vehicle changes, we might actually be able to use Land Raiders now (semi-seriously, though, those flamers in combat look juicy). Anything to break the monotone of dropping terminators and calling it a day. 

 

As for the psycannon spam, I want to see it work, truly. I keep imagining my 2 GMNDK's with my techmarine just having a wonderful time on the table-top, picking everything off with their psycannons (no, the techmarine doesn't have that option). Now that I got my strike-squads, I can actually play my GK on the table-top while wait for our primaris brethren to join us. 

[ValourousHeart]

I simply look at our units and cannot imagine what else we can do.

 

I think that might be the problem.  But it also means there is a solution.

 

In editions past (read 2nd and 3rd edition) I struggled to make my Ravenwing army work.  I was doing everything that tournament players were advising me to do and anything I could find on the internet I was implementing.  None of it worked.

 

So when 4th edition dropped I decided to throw out anything I thought I knew about how the army was supposed to work.  I shut off all external sources that were just causing noise.  I hyper focused on the rules of the game that related to the Ravenwing units.  I ended up crafting a list that looked a lot like what I was fielding before, but I was playing it in a different way and I started winning.  I kept playing the same list without changes for months.  As I was able to pinpoint what was working I would trim off fat.  Ironically the fat that I was trimming off was what the prevailing internet wisdom said were the must haves of Ravenwing.  Yet I kept winning.  And I kept cutting off more fat.

 

As weird as it sounds I didn't finish cutting off all of the fat until we got to 8th edition.  I think I'm still playing Ravenwing.  The army is comprised of almost exclusively Ravenwing units. 7 of the 9 units in the list are Ravenwing units.  But more importantly the 5 core units of the list (1200 points) are all units that were available back in 2nd edition.  The list plays the way I imagined that Ravenwing was supposed to play when I bought that first box of Ravenwing models way back when.  But it looks nothing like anything anyone playing Ravenwing is playing.

 

Anyway back to GK.  With 9th dropping, it might be worth while to forget what you think you know about how GK work and come at the army again with new eyes.  I believe if you do that with sincerity you will not regret it.

 

And yes I know it sounds like bad fortune cookie advice.

[casb1965]

 

EDIT: And another one from SoB article: * In the new edition, your charge roll has to be sufficient to reach ALL of the units you have declared a charge against, otherwise your charge is unsuccessful and no models are moved."

 

Hmm, so just keep our characters within 3" of a Dreadknight with Sactuary on it.

[Corvus Fortis]

Anything to break the monotone of dropping terminators and calling it a day. 

 

 

To be honest, if you don't like such playstyle, you've chosen the wrong army. Grey Knights are always about deep stike, magic and strombolters.

 

As for the psycannon spam, I want to see it work, truly. I keep imagining my 2 GMNDK's with my techmarine just having a wonderful time on the table-top, picking everything off with their psycannons (no, the techmarine doesn't have that option). Now that I got my strike-squads, I can actually play my GK on the table-top while wait for our primaris brethren to join us. 

 

 

GMNDK's are not spectacular in shooting. In terms of the whole game, heavy psycannon is mediocre weapon. It could be interesting if it was affected by Tide of Escalation, but no. Meh.

 

Anyway back to GK.  With 9th dropping, it might be worth while to forget what you think you know about how GK work and come at the army again with new eyes.  I believe if you do that with sincerity you will not regret it.

 

 

Agreed. We'll have to get used to a lot of things. But, I bet, in first few games we will try our previous edition lists anyway. I love the concept of single unit paladin bomb very much, to be honest. One strong core of terminators droping into the frontline, while strike squads support them where needed. It is perfectly how grey knights should operate fluff wise. I'm not interested much in dual paladin bomb, but I admit it is the best lists. You see, the idea of a large squad of paladins tanking damage, while small heroes hide behind their backs, were born to me immediately after reading rules too. That's how I played it before, but had to used other stuff to hide heroes - mostly strikes or NDKs or even SR. And I was glad to know that I wasn't wrong with the idea.

 

Anyway, I would be glad if we are getting variety, but I am already pretty content with how the things are. After almost 3 years being the bottom codex, I can ask for nothing more.

 

Hmm, so just keep our characters within 3" of a Dreadknight with Sactuary on it.

 

 

Well, if GMNDK's were that good, we would be running them already everywhere.

Personaly, I would just take another small unit of paladins instead. 

[Skywrath]

 

Anything to break the monotone of dropping terminators and calling it a day. 

 

 

To be honest, if you don't like such playstyle, you've chosen the wrong army. Grey Knights are always about deep stike, magic and strombolters.

 

Good thing I enjoy the other two aspects more than the deep-strike, on top of other things such as the lore. There is nothing more satisfying than saying "I am the Hammer" as you crush as SW army or a chaos army. Knowing that the GK are superior to every astartes chapter, and also being the most elite. I like the play-style (especially the psychic phase), it just goes back full circle that I wish we had more options for a purely competitive meta. My DA list was all mostly terminators, so perhaps that is why I feel mostly underwhelmed. 

 

As for the psycannon spam, I want to see it work, truly. I keep imagining my 2 GMNDK's with my techmarine just having a wonderful time on the table-top, picking everything off with their psycannons (no, the techmarine doesn't have that option). Now that I got my strike-squads, I can actually play my GK on the table-top while wait for our primaris brethren to join us. 

 

 

GMNDK's are not spectacular in shooting. In terms of the whole game, heavy psycannon is mediocre weapon. It could be interesting if it was affected by Tide of Escalation, but no. Meh.

 

Perhaps so, I'll take you word for it. But I like their model anyway, (no, not the baby carrier) and the Tide of Convergence remains a way to make them viable - especially if your lists had a lot of psycannons in the form of purgation squads.

 

In blue. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Skywrath

[Corvus Fortis]

Perhaps so, I'll take you word for it. But I like their model anyway, (no, not the baby carrier) and the Tide of Escalation remains a way to make them viable - especially if your lists had a lot of psycannons in the form of purgation squads.

 

 

 

GMNDKs are not trash tier, you can make them work. They can even one-shot a knight in close combat. But they are not good marksmen. Their shooting are good enough to clear chaff on their way, but that's it. And tide of escalation affects only Infantry and has no effect on GMNDKs. That was the point of my previous post.

[Skywrath]

How would you make them work? With 9th, I suspect we might want to equip them with heavy flamers for the auto-hit if they are in combat (well assuming the flamers stay the same way).

Edited June 20, 2020 by Skywrath

[Seizeman]

You can no longer overwatch (for free), so why would you want a weapon that's only decent when you overwatch?

[Captain Coolpants]

That's a very good point actually. Flamer type weapons are looking worse and worse each edition now. Unless of course they do get a rule to assist with charge prevention or an overwatch. Or maybe range boosts to help with deepstriking?

 

Of course we know nothing yet, but if flamers stay as they are, then boy.. Not good

[Valerian]

 

Perhaps so, I'll take you word for it. But I like their model anyway, (no, not the baby carrier) and the Tide of Escalation remains a way to make them viable - especially if your lists had a lot of psycannons in the form of purgation squads.

 

 

 

GMNDKs are not trash tier, you can make them work. They can even one-shot a knight in close combat. But they are not good marksmen. Their shooting are good enough to clear chaff on their way, but that's it. And tide of escalation affects only Infantry and has no effect on GMNDKs. That was the point of my previous post.

 

 

Corvus, GMNDKs benefit from Tide of Escalation.  It is only the Tide of Fury and the Tide of Convergence that are INFANTRY only.

Skywrath, did you mean to say Tide of Convergence, when you referenced "a lot of Psycannons in the form of Purgation squads,"?  Tide of Escalation (which improves Smites to D2), doesn't have a link to Psycannons.

[Skywrath]

 

 

Perhaps so, I'll take you word for it. But I like their model anyway, (no, not the baby carrier) and the Tide of Escalation remains a way to make them viable - especially if your lists had a lot of psycannons in the form of purgation squads.

 

 

 

GMNDKs are not trash tier, you can make them work. They can even one-shot a knight in close combat. But they are not good marksmen. Their shooting are good enough to clear chaff on their way, but that's it. And tide of escalation affects only Infantry and has no effect on GMNDKs. That was the point of my previous post.

 

 

Corvus, GMNDKs benefit from Tide of Escalation.  It is only the Tide of Fury and the Tide of Convergence that are INFANTRY only.

Skywrath, did you mean to say Tide of Convergence, when you referenced "a lot of Psycannons in the form of Purgation squads,"?  Tide of Escalation (which improves Smites to D2), doesn't have a link to Psycannons.

 

Indeed, I did. Never could keep the tides straight in my mind. Sorry, brother 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Skywrath

[Corvus Fortis]

Corvus, GMNDKs benefit from Tide of Escalation.  It is only the Tide of Fury and the Tide of Convergence that are INFANTRY only.

 

 

I wanted to say "convergence" sorry. Still haven't got used to these new diffucult words.

[Valerian]

This is huge!

 

 

Very punishing, but even trapped units can attempt to Fall Back/escape now.  Can't even attempt to cast a Psychic Power , or even to Fight back, if re-charged.

 

 

There will still be regular Fall Back for units that haven't been completely trapped/tri-pointed.

[Corvus Fortis]

 

IDK, why they didn't make it a core rule in CA2018.

[Valerian]

 

Same thing Corvus posted, but with the added bullet point summaries at the bottom.  This Terrain Keyword is intended for things like Woods and Dense Urban Ruins.

 

V

[Corvus Fortis]

 

Meh, doesn't look like we are getting much from this. At least, we can protect our  flyers.