So, what's the point of assault Intercessors?

[War Angel]

 

Volt, so don’t use them. If they are just as good as something else, then it comes down to flavor and play style. Not everything GW makes should be replacing something else. In fact, that would probably be bad.

 

If a unit doesn't do something distinct, it shouldn't exist as it's a waste of codex space. Ground assault intercessors without power weapons is missing the point of assault units so hard that it's like GW doesn't even play the game. Or even put thought into it from a lore perspective.

But there’s chapters that preform better in CC, so having a unit with less shooting and more stabbing is an improvement for them. And who says they don’t have power weapons? Also, they might just be a troops choice. When in all of warhammer have Marines ever had a troop choice that was filled with power weapons?

[Volt]

 

 

Volt, so don’t use them. If they are just as good as something else, then it comes down to flavor and play style. Not everything GW makes should be replacing something else. In fact, that would probably be bad.

If a unit doesn't do something distinct, it shouldn't exist as it's a waste of codex space. Ground assault intercessors without power weapons is missing the point of assault units so hard that it's like GW doesn't even play the game. Or even put thought into it from a lore perspective.

But there’s chapters that preform better in CC, so having a unit with less shooting and more stabbing is an improvement for them. And who says they don’t have power weapons? Also, they might just be a troops choice. When in all of warhammer have Marines ever had a troop choice that was filled with power weapons?

 

Except those troops were still able to take some special weapons, and most importantly have jump packs. Assault Marines would be utter garbage (although still suffering from being very brittle) without their jump packs, which the sole value behind the unit. Secondly even for armies that have buffs for melee such as Blood Angels, it is still better to stock up on dakka with a sergeant with a heavy hitting hammer or fist unless AI are hiding some radical change in the rules. Having more attacks simply is not worthwhile compared to having better shooting without the rapid (and importantly, terrain ignoring) mobility to get those swords where they need to be. x

[Hymnblade]

I've run games in tabletop simulator with a bunch of auto bolt rifle Intercessors and thunder hammer sergeants as a melee horde, in the vein of the Black Tide lists of old. It certainly has problems, but it's actually not that bad. On paper you'd expect the mass bolter fire to be important, but in practice, range/LOS issues prevented it from accomplishing as much as I hoped - advancing random distances across the board and around terrain doesn't make it easy to keep them all clumped up. Trading that for an AP1 chainsword or something so that the sergeant isn't doing all the heavy lifting would probably make the list better, not worse, especially if they're cheaper than 18 points per model.

 

Heck, one of the most competitive Space Wolf lists is already based on the Impulsor rush with a bunch of Intercessors. Two bolt rifle shots at AP 1 followed by three fist attacks at AP0 isn't better than one heavy bolt pistol shot at AP1 followed by four chainsword attacks at AP1.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Hymnblade

[War Angel]

 

 

 

Volt, so don’t use them. If they are just as good as something else, then it comes down to flavor and play style. Not everything GW makes should be replacing something else. In fact, that would probably be bad.

 

If a unit doesn't do something distinct, it shouldn't exist as it's a waste of codex space. Ground assault intercessors without power weapons is missing the point of assault units so hard that it's like GW doesn't even play the game. Or even put thought into it from a lore perspective.

But there’s chapters that preform better in CC, so having a unit with less shooting and more stabbing is an improvement for them. And who says they don’t have power weapons? Also, they might just be a troops choice. When in all of warhammer have Marines ever had a troop choice that was filled with power weapons?

Except those troops were still able to take some special weapons, and most importantly have jump packs. Assault Marines would be utter garbage (although still suffering from being very brittle) without their jump packs, which the sole value behind the unit. Secondly even for armies that have buffs for melee such as Blood Angels, it is still better to stock up on dakka with a sergeant with a heavy hitting hammer or fist unless AI are hiding some radical change in the rules. Having more attacks simply is not worthwhile compared to having better shooting without the rapid (and importantly, terrain ignoring) mobility to get those swords where they need to be. x

I guess I can see your point situationally, such as when you don’t have any terrain on the board. I enjoy playing games at locations that have a few buildings that provide more variety than just standing in a line and shooting at each other.

 

In the photos we’ve been shown, the sergeant has a plasma pistol. I imagine he will also be able to take a close combat weapon to replace his chainsword. In addition to that, the rest of the squad is at least armed with Astartes chainswords, which will be more than just +1 attack. So it’s already as strong as a bolt rifle. In a game lasting 5 turns you’ll at minimum spend the same amount of time in the assault docterine, with the option to have spent more. During those turns they will be hitting harder than auto rifles. Any stratagems will increase that. They also have a heavy bolt pistol, which at least has more AP than an auto bolt rifle, which is nice if lacking in volume. And because you can charge through LOS blocking terrain you can actually get them into combat without ever having been able to shoot an auto bolt rifle anyway.

 

Your right, they’re utter garbage. I want 20 of them.

[Panzer]

 

 

There is also the fact that they will be (presumably) a Troops choice rather than Elites, as Reivers are, which means one will be able to actually run a primarily melee Primaris army. My brother seems to be excited about them especially for his Space Wolves, considering he hated all of the existing (exclusively ranged) Primaris Troops choices. (And further, he dislikes Reivers for looking like dorky "tacticool" Call of Duty cosplayers.)

 

I mean, incursors exist. On the charge a 5 man squad will land a whole 0.7 less hits than a 5 man reiver unit, fill the mandatory troops slot and have turn 1 on board deployment vs deep strike.

Similar loo,s though - cargo shorts and dorky helms :)

The issue is that bringing an Impulsor to transport a unit of Assault Intercessors is frankly stupid. A bunch of chainswords clears out chaff well enough... but so does just the ye olde strategy of just marching a horde of intercessors with auto bolters upfield to mow everything in their path down, and bringing more melee pain to bear too thanks to thunder hammers or power fists on the Sarge. The entire point of taking transports is to get valuable troops where they need to be, or else they don't justify the cost of the transport in the first place. If you don't have power weapons or special weapons, essentially they just suck as a unit (and this goes for Reivers as well, which are also garbage for the same reason as AI). The actual useful melee unit in space marine armies is vanguard vets, (or even just assault marines), and both AI and Reivers fail to measure up in their inability to actually bring hard hitting weapons (even if assault marines kinda suck anyway, they at least have flexible movement and eviscerators in theory).

 

Unless there is some obscene rule buff hiding in the new edition or unreleased weapon options, there is still basically no reason to not just spam the crap out of intercessors with autobolters and advancing nonstop or stuffing transports with Hellblasters. This is both due to the alternatives being complete garbage, but auto bolter/bolt rifle spam and hellblasters being too good.

 

(assuming the hellblasters survive of course, in meta they need transports or else they just get erased while Eliminators are the reliable anti tank, but I'm more discussing along the line of "you have three transports and you're going to stick what actually justifies the cost of the transport inside")

 

For me though the problem is just that logically speaking, one or even two more attacks with a chainsword (even with +1 strength), just isn't as good as a shooting unit which also is very capable in melee, has a heavy hitting melee weapon with 4-5 attacks, and can advance endlessly while pouring fire. Reivers don't compare either and I wouldn't focus on them making AI irrelevant, as Reivers are irrelevant elite choices themselves. As-is, unless a dedicated assault unit has special weapons out the arse or jump packs to let it scoot rapidly across the battlefield, there is no point to ground assault in a space marine army, whatsoever. It will get shot to pieces when trying to charge distance, and with transport you're paying a premium to bully guardsmen or orks when you could just form a gunline and hose them.

100% this. Well put.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Are they the most competitive choice? No, not really. However, when has GW ever been interested in only making that?

 

Plus, Despoiler Squads existed during the Crusade/Heresy. Footslogging Tacticals with bolt pistol/chainsword, and only the Sergeant being able to take other weapons. Sounds a whole like what we're getting here.

[Panzer]

 

 

Volt, so don’t use them. If they are just as good as something else, then it comes down to flavor and play style. Not everything GW makes should be replacing something else. In fact, that would probably be bad.

If a unit doesn't do something distinct, it shouldn't exist as it's a waste of codex space. Ground assault intercessors without power weapons is missing the point of assault units so hard that it's like GW doesn't even play the game. Or even put thought into it from a lore perspective.

But there’s chapters that preform better in CC, so having a unit with less shooting and more stabbing is an improvement for them. And who says they don’t have power weapons? Also, they might just be a troops choice. When in all of warhammer have Marines ever had a troop choice that was filled with power weapons?

 

 

As a Blood Angels player who uses Combat Blade Reivers a lot because of the conversion I made let me tell you ... no.

The damage output and utility of Assault Bolt Rifle Intercessors is so much better than Reivers with Combat Blades unless you play on super dense Cities of Death like boards. 3 S4 AP0 shots hitting on 3+ or 4+ (if you advance) over multiple turns easily beats out +1 S4 AP0 attack even with the +1 to wound. Not to mention that from turn 3 on I already get attacks coming out of my ears. Especially if I choose to upgrade some of my Intercessors to Veterans (which I'm going to ignore here since we don't know whether AI can become Veterans too or not). Regular Intercessors already have 3 attacks on the charge, that's good. Turn 3+ mine get 4. What do I care if I get another +1 S4 AP0 attack. That's a really minor buff. Being able to dish out 3 S4 AP0 shots at 24" however is so much more worth. Add a Thunderhammer on the Sergeant and we're looking at 4 high profile attacks that can wreck whole units on their own (wouldn't be the first time).

 

Rule of cool is a wonderful thing, however it isn't everything. I already got Reivers and DC Intercessors because of rule of cool and really struggle with them since they simply don't deliver what they promise. It's time for a unit that's actually useful as well as cool. Without special rules or a really impressive chainsword variant these Assault Intercessors are pretty much DoA unless they are incredibly cheap. Anything in the 9th that would help them would also help more capable units so that can't be an argument either I fear.

[Volt]

 

 

 

 

Volt, so don’t use them. If they are just as good as something else, then it comes down to flavor and play style. Not everything GW makes should be replacing something else. In fact, that would probably be bad.

If a unit doesn't do something distinct, it shouldn't exist as it's a waste of codex space. Ground assault intercessors without power weapons is missing the point of assault units so hard that it's like GW doesn't even play the game. Or even put thought into it from a lore perspective.

But there’s chapters that preform better in CC, so having a unit with less shooting and more stabbing is an improvement for them. And who says they don’t have power weapons? Also, they might just be a troops choice. When in all of warhammer have Marines ever had a troop choice that was filled with power weapons?

Except those troops were still able to take some special weapons, and most importantly have jump packs. Assault Marines would be utter garbage (although still suffering from being very brittle) without their jump packs, which the sole value behind the unit. Secondly even for armies that have buffs for melee such as Blood Angels, it is still better to stock up on dakka with a sergeant with a heavy hitting hammer or fist unless AI are hiding some radical change in the rules. Having more attacks simply is not worthwhile compared to having better shooting without the rapid (and importantly, terrain ignoring) mobility to get those swords where they need to be. x

I guess I can see your point situationally, such as when you don’t have any terrain on the board. I enjoy playing games at locations that have a few buildings that provide more variety than just standing in a line and shooting at each other.

 

In the photos we’ve been shown, the sergeant has a plasma pistol. I imagine he will also be able to take a close combat weapon to replace his chainsword. In addition to that, the rest of the squad is at least armed with Astartes chainswords, which will be more than just +1 attack. So it’s already as strong as a bolt rifle. In a game lasting 5 turns you’ll at minimum spend the same amount of time in the assault docterine, with the option to have spent more. During those turns they will be hitting harder than auto rifles. Any stratagems will increase that. They also have a heavy bolt pistol, which at least has more AP than an auto bolt rifle, which is nice if lacking in volume. And because you can charge through LOS blocking terrain you can actually get them into combat without ever having been able to shoot an auto bolt rifle anyway.

 

Your right, they’re utter garbage. I want 20 of them.

 

No, terrain doesn't change anything. Even Cities of Death with heavy presence of ruins remains very much a shooting meta with assault being impotent without mobility or deep strike capability. You don't get to fight numerous times in melee, you're lucky if melee units make it across the table in the first place and intact enough to inflict lasting damage. Auto bolters are flatly the best loadout you can slap on any unit because they allow you to close into melee while continually hosing enemy infantry or even light vehicles and stripping wounds by volume of fire until charging in melee with at least the sergeant still alive and packing a power fist or thunder hammer to slap a load of wounds on a vehicle. The problem is one of what is essentially DPS- the ability to continually inflict damage on the enemy from any distance while also packing a significant punch in melee. Instead of being optimal, they specialize while not nearly specializing enough.

 

My prediction is that on initial release Assault Intercessors will be hot garbage, only becoming good when GW drip feeds them new options with updates to milk the fans; which is exactly what happened with normal intercessors.

[War Angel]

Normal intercessors where great right out the bat. You don’t need any support for them to get work done. And you don’t need fancy melee options on them either.

[Panzer]

Normal intercessors where great right out the bat. You don’t need any support for them to get work done. And you don’t need fancy melee options on them either.

No they weren't. They were okay-ish. Their points got reduced a lot until people seriously started taking them.

[Hymnblade]

How much did Intercessors cost at the start of 8e? I know all three rifles were worse in the 1.0 codex: autos had 2 shots, stalkers had d1, and bolter discipline wasn't a thing.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Intercessors cost 20 points in the Index and Codex. Dropped to 18 in CA 2017 and then finally down to 17 a year later.

[War Angel]

I was still using them and they were still good. Except of course auto and stalker.

 

Still, better for a unit to be a little under performance and brought up to speed than released overpowered and nerfed.

[Brother Quinn]

I think in the current space they may not be better than the regular Intercessor; however, the Warhammer Community article specifically calls out its actually an "Astartes Chainsword" hinting they'll have a different profile than the current Chainsword.  I think we need to see more to judge them more appropriately.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m definitely gonna run some in my upcoming Templar army.

[jaxom]

 

Volt, so don’t use them. If they are just as good as something else, then it comes down to flavor and play style. Not everything GW makes should be replacing something else. In fact, that would probably be bad.

If a unit doesn't do something distinct, it shouldn't exist as it's a waste of codex space. Ground assault intercessors without power weapons is missing the point of assault units so hard that it's like GW doesn't even play the game. Or even put thought into it from a lore perspective.

 

 

Codex: Space Marines covers a wide variety of possible chapters from the Ultramarines to the Carchardons Astra. The Chapter Tactics reflect that and they also provide a way to individualize one's army. A player doesn't have to be pigeon-holed into using White Scar or Black Templar rules for their melee-oriented chapter:

• Duellists - more attacks means more sixes means more autowounds.
• Hungry for Battle - +1 to (assault and) charge roll, 'nuff said.
• Preferred Enemy - Re-roll hit rolls in the first turn of melee against preferred faction.
• Tactical Withdrawal - Can fall back and charge in the same turn.
• Whirlwind of Rage - more attacks means more sixes means more attacks.

A number of these are terrible from a tournament perspective and overlap with the named Chapters's tactics. What they do is let players craft a more specific, personalized fantasy around their little plastic dudes. Assault Intercessors gives another unit to those players who want to continue down that road.

[Dracos]

If I can use a 5 man squad of Rapid Fire Intercessors (chainsword sgt) to take fairly easily out a Victrix Guard, I see definitely can see a future for Assault Intercessors if they are Troops with Sgt's access to Armory.

[One Two Wolf]

I'll say it again, Assault Intercessors might be able to charge out of an Assault Vehicle.

[Boldthreat]

Well we don’t know the rules. And this saves me from putting reiver arms on intercessors like I was planning. It doesn’t appear they have any kind of special wargear.

 

Though when the multi part kit drops... hopefully we get two handed chainswords, chain axes and the like. One can hope lol.

[Guest Triszin]

to be a cqc choice for cqc oriented chapters, that wasn't a wasted elite slot like reivers

[Medjugorje]

I love it. And i expect just normal Intercessors with normal Chainswords and a heavy Bolt pistole. All CC oriented chapters must like it just because their theme and playstyle.

[Doghouse]

I think there is more to come on the rules just yet that could possibly justify them to be honest and they are bound to get a secondary kit. The game feels like it's leaning away from large units towards vehicle heavy, small unit armies so maybe they get some disembarking or assault synergy.

 

If it's anything like the original assault marines maybe jump packs or something with the option to remove them.

[ShibeKing]

I just think all Astartes (loyal or traitor) should go in equipped with a bolter, pistol, and a chainsword. Balanced? Probably not. The Assault Intercessors look cool, but they go against my far fetched and unobtainable dream so I now have an irrational dislike for them.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Normal intercessors where great right out the bat. You don’t need any support for them to get work done. And you don’t need fancy melee options on them either.

 

If assault bolt rifles never got buffed, or if the sergeant never got the power weapon/thunder hammer option, I wouldn't even want to take Primaris Intercessors because I build assault lists. They're great shooting troops though.

 

If Astartes chainswords end up being underwhelming or if Assault Intercessor Sergeants don't receive good melee wargear options, Assault Intercessors are definitely going to be a terrible and useless unit compared to Primaris Intercessors. But I'll still be taking them over regular Intercessors. My hope is that they get the Veteran Intercessor option for increased attacks which combined with good Astartes chainsword rules and things like "fight twice" or "fight first" stratagems will make them at least a usable tactical unit, much like Khorne Berserkers are.

[Dracos]

I'm with Tyberos hoping that Assault Intercessors can get the armoury for the sgts (and hope ut dont need that the phrase Astartes Chainsword gives a bump over other Imperial Chainswords) Being Primaris they need to be able to hold their own against a Berserker but without surpassing them. After all Primaris has options a Khorne army doesn't have access to. We all chose our armies for different reasons, and we need accept the consequences of those choices. Khorne doesn't shoot well and Astartes don't fight as well (unless your Blood Angels and Templars. Then your close to the same weight class :))