Prediction on 9th & how it will affect DA

[ValourousHeart]

As the title says, I'm putting forth my prediction for how 9th will affect Dark Angels.

 

First up changes to CP generation.  GW said that they were going to increase CP, but I think that most people are overestimating what that means exactly.  I think it means that some armies will not see an increase due to how many sources they pull from.

 

IMO the issue in 8th wasn't that Brigades had +12 and Imperial Knights had +6, it was that Outrider and Vanguard detachments only had +1.  This meant that we were forced to build Battalions or Brigades in order to have enough CP to compete.  So we ended up with bland Battalions instead of what would have been interesting Vanguard or Outrider detachments.

 

I'm not sure how they are going to scale CP with game size, but I think that 15 CP for 2000 points is the right starting number.

 

Detachment costs would work as follows.

1. If your first detachment is a Patrol, Battalion, or Brigade, it is free.  
2. If your first detachment is a Vanguard, Outrider or Spearhead it costs 1 CP.  
3. If your first detachment is Super Heavy Detachment it costs 3 CP.  
4. All other detachments can only be taken as a 2nd or 3rd detachments.
   1. Super Heavy Aux, Supreme Command, and Flyer Wing cost 2 CP each.
   2. Super Heavy Detachment costs 3 CP. 
   3. All other detachments cost 1 CP.

Not sure if there should be an option for a 4th or 5th detachment, at least not at 2k.

 

First codex is free.  Each codex or source book after the first costs 1 CP.  Refer to the specific source for aditional CP costs.  So Vigilus formation will be 1 for the book and 1 for the formation, but Ritual of the Damned will just be 1 CP.   (Which opens some interesting possibilities like taking a detachment of Grey Knights which would get a slight discount since you don't have to buy the PA book a second time.)  I think Codex SM and the supplement marine codexes will have pay 1 CP since you are using 2 books.  Because that is equal to non-codex chapters who have to pay 1 CP for the PA book to get access to their updated rules.

 

 

So first up lets try a classic from the tournament scene to see how this works - the loyal 32, 3 shield captains and 1 Castellan.

 

• IG codex - 0
• Battalion - 0
• Custodies Codex - 1
• Supreme Command - 2
• Imperial Knights Codex - 1
• Super Heavy Aux - 2

 

Total 9 CP left before extra WLT, Relics, and other shenanigans.

(Equal to what they had previously)

 

 

Second, a Ravenwing Build - technically this is the Black and Green builds that formed the Ravening Battalion lists.

 

• Codex Dark Angels - 0
• 1 Battalion - 0
• 1 Outrider - 1
• Ritual of the Damned - 1
• Vigilus Defiant - 1
• Ravenwing Attack Squadron - 1

 

Total 11 CP before extra Relics, WLT and other Shenanigans.

(Had 8 CP previously)

 

 

Third, a black and white build - Old School.

 

• Codex Dark Angels - 0
• 1 Vanguard - 1
• 1 Outrider - 1
• Ritual of the Damned - 1

 

Total 12 CP before extra Relics, WLT and other Shenanigans.

(Had 5 CP previously)

 

 

And Fourth, a Tri-wing build.

 

• Codex Dark Angels - 0
• 1 Battalion - 0
• 1 Outrider - 1
• Ritual of the Damned - 1

 

Total 13 CP before extra Relics, WLT and other Shenanigans.

(Had 9 CP previously)

 

 

For the black and white and tri-wing I didn't included Vigilus Defiant or the Ravenwing Attack Squadron because there might not be enough RW units to justify the 2 CP cost worth it.  And at 3 CP the Monster Slayer of Caliban does not seem worth it over other choices available to us unless you really plan to use Signal The Attack or Swift Strike a lot.  But personally I think Ravenwing gets more benefit from Ritual of the Damned.

 

 

I don't have any inside information, but that is what I predict. How close will I be?  Only time will tell.

 

What do you think the new CP system will be and how do you think it will affect classic DA builds?

[Hantheman]

If we get more CP for pure Dark Angels it'll be a massive boon. Ravenwing and Deathwing are very CP heavy. Being able to transhuman BKs twice in a game is potentially massive. Being able to use the ravenwing strats two turns running etc. The cost of our units are so high I struggled to make a decent double battalion so getting more CP is great.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Hantheman

[Gederas]

If we get more CP for pure Dark Angels it'll be a massive boon. Ravenwing and Deathwing are very CP heavy. Being able to transhuman BKs twice in a game is potentially massive. Being able to use the ravnewing strats two turns running etc. The cost of our units are so high I struggled to make a decent double battalion so getting more CP is great.

I'm in agreement with Hantheman. If the new edition allows us to make use of a pure force (never really an issue for me, as I've only ever ran Dark Angels by themselves when I field them), but also able to use a majority Deathwing or Ravenwing force, would be amazing.

 

I've always wanted to run a pure Ravenwing force, but man.... They're CP hungry. If we can do so.... Yes

Edited May 26, 2020 by Gederas

[ValourousHeart]

Yeah I just bit the bullet and ran on minimal CP (4).

 

I made up for the lack of CP by flooding the list with heavy weapons, and then as we got access to PA I switched up my Relics and WLT.

 

Before PA I only used command reroll, after PA I'm mostly using high speed focus.  It will be nice getting to use some of the other strats in the future.

[aura_enchanted]

My land raider Excelsior suddenly became really amazing, she can take some impressive punishment. The mighty Caliban and titan (my command tanks) ride to justice it would seem.

 

He is an absolute bruiser that shouldn't be underestimated, s8 on melee is no joke if you can get the ap up, and the guns are not to be under estimated, a grav cannon and las cannons are quite punchy when their all pointed at a single target or Mob of targets, Ive seen take such a beating and keep fighting and I'm not sure now how an opponent is expected to fight him if he lumbers towards you and you can't tarpit his guns away. And because he's an HQ he pretty much secures my slay the warlord point. In the 8 games I played of 8th edition not once did anyone crack him, they bypassed him and let him run amok or spent the whole game trying to kill him and failing.

 

I'm not exactly certain what the drawback is here unless he forfeits melee, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't though.

 

And if the rules are that he can shoot a target he's locked up with, that's a grav cannon and quad lascannons and a combi plasma, that's a lot of weapons designed to punch through most conventional assault infantry.

[Hellunder]

Did you guys watch the stream today? I only have second hand information from it, but most important for us is: Armies will start on 20CP in a 2000p game, we don't know what things will cost CP pre-game though, I heard things about even some HQs costing CP. Sounds promising though.

Another big change: Modifiers can only go +1/-1 at a maximum. That's good news for our plasma! I wonder though if you can do +1 to hit to negate a -1 to hit and another +1 to hit to actually get your +1 to hit.

That's all I know for now, more news will probably come tomorrow.

[Fierce Bear]

I caught a re-run... Check the thread on the news section...

 

CP will be equal for players based on game size and there for no battalion troop tax as we know it today...

 

 

So... Full Deathwing or Ravenwing is back on the menu Brothers!!

 

 

Ohhh and 1st Gen Marines aren't heading to Legends...

Edited May 26, 2020 by Fierce Bear

[Interrogator Stobz]

++This is Good++

[Wrath of Bruinen]

Say it with me, friends: "DeathRaven, DeathRaven, DeathRaven!" The Fallen haven't been in this much danger in years

[Hellunder]

Here's a transcript of the stream:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pLkIFWf81YIhGD6Cy_zfvX4zm5GbkYTTEHEPapCTONY/edit

 

Ravenwing reserves sounds a bit appealing to me, and also as already mentioned, they clearly say that they want you to have more freedom on how to build your army, so pure RW DW lists can be really cool.

[Master Sheol]

There is interesting things coming from that stream but one thing still annoys me

The game will be again IGYG that Is a old meccanica that was good only in older edition where we had a lot less shooting than now

Unified turno with alternate activation/phase would be better

 

You can have all the good rules of this world but if the player that starts first has the advantage to annihilate the opponent without opposition the tileset Is still flawed on its core

[Skywrath]

Is this the ticket to a pure Deathwing Army? Oh lord.. nothing more satisfying than seeing 15 DWK running around with 15 DWT and a few mortis dreadnoughts in the background. My soul is singing!

 

Of course this is all hypothetical, but one can dream.. right? Right!?! *cries in Dark Angel*

Edited May 27, 2020 by Skywrath

[Master Sheol]

@Skywrath

One can dream

I have all DW command

12 DWK (2 * 6 men squads)

24 DWT (4 * 6 men squads)

1 Ven Dread

1 DA contemptor

1 LR Crusader

 

Would like to field them all at once

[Fierce Bear]

There is interesting things coming from that stream but one thing still annoys me

The game will be again IGYG that Is a old meccanica that was good only in older edition where we had a lot less shooting than now

Unified turno with alternate activation/phase would be better

 

You can have all the good rules of this world but if the player that starts first has the advantage to annihilate the opponent without opposition the tileset Is still flawed on its core

I really want to test out our surviveability in going second.

 

The couple of games I have played this year with the RW have seen a brutal first turn from Sammaels finest, but I actually want to see if you can take a 1st turn alpha and still win...

[ValourousHeart]

There is interesting things coming from that stream but one thing still annoys me

The game will be again IGYG that Is a old meccanica that was good only in older edition where we had a lot less shooting than now

Unified turno with alternate activation/phase would be better

 

You can have all the good rules of this world but if the player that starts first has the advantage to annihilate the opponent without opposition the tileset Is still flawed on its core

 

Master Sheol,

 

They addressed this in the Q&A.  But in simple terms it goes like this.

 

If Assault armies are struggling, add more terrain.  If shooting armies are struggling, remove terrain.

 

If you think that there is even the remotest chance that once side or the other can be eliminated turn 1.... ADD MORE TERRAIN!!!!

 

 

There is interesting things coming from that stream but one thing still annoys me

The game will be again IGYG that Is a old meccanica that was good only in older edition where we had a lot less shooting than now

Unified turno with alternate activation/phase would be better

 

You can have all the good rules of this world but if the player that starts first has the advantage to annihilate the opponent without opposition the tileset Is still flawed on its core

I really want to test out our surviveability in going second.

 

The couple of games I have played this year with the RW have seen a brutal first turn from Sammaels finest, but I actually want to see if you can take a 1st turn alpha and still win...

 

Yes you can survive going second as long as their is a sufficient amount of terrain on the table.

[Berzul]

I am seriously intrigued by three things in the upcoming edition:

 

1) Terrain rules

2) Morale rules

3) Crusade rules

 

I know they don't really affect us much... I mean, terrain does affect everyone to a degree, and I do wonder how morale will work with our Grim Resolve now. Crusade is just a particular thing for narrative players.

 

... I guess the only way I can be 100% sure 9th will affect me, is in the fact that 9th edition is when I finally begin collecting primaris.

 

Assault Intercessors, Bladeguard, and Outrides?! I mean, it's like GW finally listened to three years of me crying my eyes out on their facebook posts.

[Master Sheol]

I am seriously intrigued by three things in the upcoming edition:

 

1) Terrain rules

2) Morale rules

3) Crusade rules

 

I know they don't really affect us much... I mean, terrain does affect everyone to a degree, and I do wonder how morale will work with our Grim Resolve now. Crusade is just a particular thing for narrative players.

 

... I guess the only way I can be 100% sure 9th will affect me, is in the fact that 9th edition is when I finally begin collecting primaris.

 

Assault Intercessors, Bladeguard, and Outrides?! I mean, it's like GW finally listened to three years of me crying my eyes out on their facebook posts.

Yes terrain Will be REALLY important cause the game will be the old IGYG (After playing KT that uses unified turno i started to HATE IGYG) so you MUST have cover to survive turn One if you opponent is IG or tau and will shoot you all he have

 

I am not interested in Crusade rules except if they Will have something interesting to port into KT were the progression and customisation of each soldier is more amusing

 

I want to see how new Morale rules will go with our special rules (i am pretty sure GW made a mess interacting new morale rules with Stubborn rule)

 

About the new units the One i am more interested about is ofc Outriders cause they will go straight into my RW

Bladeguard and Assault Intercessors look interesting but they have a basic problem. They are on foot and primaris trasports are way too costy and without good trasports assault troops on foot are pretty useless

[Berzul]

Well, the game was IGYG in 8th, so the impact of that on the importance of terrain doesn't really change. What I am most interested is in seeing if the rules for terrain will change, and how that might impact (for instance) the Talonmaster's ignore cover ability.

[Grand Master Raziel]

I wonder if Land Raiders will make a comeback. Particularly Crusaders and Redeemers. If touching those things means you get the full brunt of their firepower, suddenly tarpitting them isn't going to be quite so easy.

[Interrogator Stobz]

As it shouldn't be. Four grots should not be able to neuter a tank by standing around it.

The changes all seem great for the First, I'd like to see more, but some of my desired changes would not be popular with many players.

[ValourousHeart]

As it shouldn't be. Four grots should not be able to neuter a tank by standing around it.

The changes all seem great for the First, I'd like to see more, but some of my desired changes would not be popular with many players.

 

What did you have in mind?

[Herbington]

I wonder if Land Raiders will make a comeback. Particularly Crusaders and Redeemers. If touching those things means you get the full brunt of their firepower, suddenly tarpitting them isn't going to be quite so easy.

 

 I do hope so, I just ordered one (wanted to get in before the price increase!).

[Interrogator Stobz]

My thoughts would take us well off topic mate, so without attempting to derail:

Lose all strats except ones that are about actual strategy, the pokemon style power ups are horrible imho; it would suit the even 9th Ed CP generation method and only using CP on detachments and other battlefield assets would feel right.

Lose pre measuring and the ridiculous order of dice roll modification, the previous 7 editions all did it better, the max +/-1 is a weak fix.

Bring back templates, and maybe vehicle arcs and armour, somehow. The new  9th Ed blast mechanic is an improved version of a truly rubbish mechanic.

Make Characters join units again but make them the last to be removed to avoid tanking.
Their bubbles can effect other close units as per 8th but the characters can be freely targeted once their one bodyguard unit is dead.

Told you some would be unpopular, there's plenty of good in 8th, and the 9th stuff should definitely fix a few things so here's hoping it all goes well.

Edited to help with OTnessness

Edited May 29, 2020 by Interrogator Stobz

[Berzul]

My thoughts would take us well off topic mate, so without attempting to derail:

 

Lose all strats except ones that are about actual strategy, the pokemon style power ups are horrible imho; it would suit the even 9th Ed CP generation method and only using CP on detachments and other battlefield assets would feel right.

 

Lose pre measuring and the ridiculous order of dice roll modification, the previous 7 editions all did it better, the max +/-1 is a weak fix.

 

Bring back templates, and maybe vehicle arcs and armour, somehow. The new  9th Ed blast mechanic is an improved version of a truly rubbish mechanic.

 

Make Characters join units again but make them the last to be removed to avoid tanking.

Their bubbles can effect other close units as per 8th but the characters can be freely targeted once their one bodyguard unit is dead.

 

Told you some would be unpopular, there's plenty of good in 8th, and the 9th stuff should definitely fix a few things so here's hoping it all goes well.

 

Edited to help with OTnessness

Not wanting to derail this, I just want to mention that your considerations might not be as unpopular as you might think. I myself share many of them, if not all of them. I do think that the game has become a bit like a "trading card game", with strats being ultra-combo-power ups, that remove a lot of the "war" from the "wargame" that is WH.

 

Back on topic....

 

I wonder how the Dark Shroud will work out for us now, with the cap on +1/-1 for to-hit rolls. I have often read or heard the argument that an army that cannot stack 2 or more -1s to hit, should not even bother with them. Now, with the new cap on modifiers, the Dark Shroud, I feel, might become more useful and important in an army.

[Angel of Solitude]

Dark Shouds are an interesting one, and I see your point: if -1 to hit is as good as you are going to get, then that will give you value.

 

By all accounts, 9th edition will be more favourable to vehicles, and will encourage assault-based forces. Having the ability to advance a force with an always-on -1 to hit bubble could be strong indeed. Particularly as many vehicles in other forces will need to forgo shooting and rely on using smoke grenades to get a -1 to hit. For us, the Dark Shroud will allow our Land Raiders to fire first turn (taking advantage of our Devastator Doctrine) and still being -1 to hit.

 

The other unit that really benefits from the -1 to hit cap are Hellblasters. Supported by a chaplain reciting Recitation of Focus, and this unit will not suffer so much as it has done previously...I still have nightmares over that one time I shot at an Alaitoc Flyer with Lightning Fast Reflexes with my supercharged Hellblasters...