9th Ed Speculation Thread

[MegaVolt87]

We have survived worse. Besides, the CA isn't leaked yet and the released rules seems like an incomplete document.

 

I don't know, seems like we are not really getting fresh blood into CSM new players wise. Nice models won't sell a faction if the rules are terrible IMO. At this point, I am just here for the lore, modeling and painting, cross compatibility with HH. No ETL either hasn't helped my CSM/HH back log, I am just pining for a new army that I will actually use in 9th ed- by the chaos gods its likely going to be IF's as I am already seeing the new indomni box with legion era paint scheme/ templar trappings for the primaris and how I will be doing it. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

It does feel like Engines will be "the hotness" right now... Given I play Iron Warriors I will not complain about that.... 

That being said: we *desperately* need a rework in several areas to stay relevant. 

 

Barely any list can keep up against Primaris, a great deal of books out currently aren't very good. That includes Xenos in addition to Chaos. 

[Cheex]

Am I understanding the new rules right that a Helldrake and Raptors cannot attack an aircraft?

 

Edit: or, do the new rules technically allow any unit to charge aircraft?

 

I can't find any rules regarding aircraft in the charge phase and the aircraft sub-section seems to only talk about engagement range in regards to everything but charging.

 

You cannot use "any kind of move" to end within the Engagement Range of an Aircraft, and charging is described as a move, so they're immune to all charges.

 

I'm not convinced that this is intentional, but it very well could be - it could be fluffed that they are so high in the air that it wouldn't be reasonable for any guy with a jump pack to reach them over the course of a game (though that doesn't help explain why Heldrakes couldn't reach them). I wonder if it's intentional and that Aircraft are going to be costed to suit.

[Doom Herald]

1. The new Vehicle rules are pretty good for chaos. But Vehicles cant use cover anymore and have problems with terrain.

2. The new morale rules are also pretty good, as we have quiet some utility here

3. Our core choices will suffer, they are even worse than before

4. Summoning got improved, as it allows us to soup without paying a second detachement. Just add cheap characters.

5. I have to play some games before I can comment about cohesion etc.

6. Mass infantry got weaker because of blast, but stronger because of morale. Also "cut them down" is quiet handy for big cultist blobs. And everything that shoots a cultist is not shooting something important.

7. Also cheap infantry allows the "action" secondary goals to be used more efficient.

8. MSU got a bit weaker, because of Morale and character screening. They are not a reliable screen anymore.

9. Flyers cant be spammed because of detachement layouts

10. Character spam is harder because of detachement layouts

 

I see a lot of "up and down" here. You want cheap Infantry for secondaries and screens, but they are vulnerable to blast. You want MSU for point efficiency, but they are bad at screening characters. You want Vehicles because of general buffs, but terrain is can hinder them. You want characters, but need a suitable screen.

 

In the end, chaos will lose out. We always do.

What about the morale rules seems like a benefit to you?

 

Edit: I don't mean that to sound confrontational, I'm just wondering if theres an angle I'm missing. I'm playing NL and honestly the new morale seems like it will have less impact now when in 8th I could LD bomb and use the Flayer relic to scare them away.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Doom Herald]

 

 

Am I understanding the new rules right that a Helldrake and Raptors cannot attack an aircraft?

 

Edit: or, do the new rules technically allow any unit to charge aircraft?

 

I can't find any rules regarding aircraft in the charge phase and the aircraft sub-section seems to only talk about engagement range in regards to everything but charging.

You cannot use "any kind of move" to end within the Engagement Range of an Aircraft, and charging is described as a move, so they're immune to all charges.

 

I'm not convinced that this is intentional, but it very well could be - it could be fluffed that they are so high in the air that it wouldn't be reasonable for any guy with a jump pack to reach them over the course of a game (though that doesn't help explain why Heldrakes couldn't reach them). I wonder if it's intentional and that Aircraft are going to be costed to suit.

I believe it explicitly says FLY units can move towards them for heroic intervention, so I can't imagine they intended for them to not be able to charge them. GW has not been very good at written rules though. Edited July 6, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Lord_Starscream]

 

We have survived worse. Besides, the CA isn't leaked yet and the released rules seems like an incomplete document.

 

I don't know, seems like we are not really getting fresh blood into CSM new players wise. Nice models won't sell a faction if the rules are terrible IMO. At this point, I am just here for the lore, modeling and painting, cross compatibility with HH. No ETL either hasn't helped my CSM/HH back log, I am just pining for a new army that I will actually use in 9th ed- by the chaos gods its likely going to be IF's as I am already seeing the new indomni box with legion era paint scheme/ templar trappings for the primaris and how I will be doing it. 

 

 

In my 26 years of 40k, imo, in respect to being a viable faction (in terms of being able to bring an army, rather than just monster mashing), Chaos is in the worst place I've ever seen. The 3.0 pamphlet codex, and the 4.0 slimmed down dog:cuss codex, at least gave Chaos Space Marines a viable backbone of Chaos Space Marines in those books. As it is right now, at every level Chaos is tactically incompetent, beyond gambling on deep strikes and bombs, or throwing waves of monsters out (which is just a sign of the desperate, IMO)

 

All the communities are withering like I've not seen, and all of the games I saw (prior to COVID), are gone.

 

Chaos is functionally extinct where I live already. Even a guy with 20,000 points of EC and 7,000 points DG, started selling off whatever he could that wasn't finished, and all he said was "I can't take this anymore", and has since moved on to Drukhari and one other faction (I can't remember, I think it's Admech).

 

I don't know anyone who willingly plays Chaos regionally anymore. 2019 is when the anger started to settle in and people started fleeing in droves, locally, or flipping to loyalist. 2020 cemented their exodus so far, especially the 9th previews.

 

To be honest, I think it's pretty over, even if it gets the release it needs. A lot of people got burned by how bad these units are. And even if they get new models, it won't fix the fact that the current offerings of units won't really work out anyway. They literally need an entire line refresh, which they ironically just got.

 

GW thought they could AOS it, and have SIgmarites vs. Weaker Chaos, but it looks like that flavour didn't work for 40k. So Chaos just, went away. If they realized their mistake, it'll take five years for them to fix at a minimum.

 

Welcome to the pit.

[MasterDeath]

 

1. The new Vehicle rules are pretty good for chaos. But Vehicles cant use cover anymore and have problems with terrain.

2. The new morale rules are also pretty good, as we have quiet some utility here

3. Our core choices will suffer, they are even worse than before

4. Summoning got improved, as it allows us to soup without paying a second detachement. Just add cheap characters.

5. I have to play some games before I can comment about cohesion etc.

6. Mass infantry got weaker because of blast, but stronger because of morale. Also "cut them down" is quiet handy for big cultist blobs. And everything that shoots a cultist is not shooting something important.

7. Also cheap infantry allows the "action" secondary goals to be used more efficient.

8. MSU got a bit weaker, because of Morale and character screening. They are not a reliable screen anymore.

9. Flyers cant be spammed because of detachement layouts

10. Character spam is harder because of detachement layouts

 

I see a lot of "up and down" here. You want cheap Infantry for secondaries and screens, but they are vulnerable to blast. You want MSU for point efficiency, but they are bad at screening characters. You want Vehicles because of general buffs, but terrain is can hinder them. You want characters, but need a suitable screen.

 

In the end, chaos will lose out. We always do.

What about the morale rules seems like a benefit to you?

 

Edit: I don't mean that to sound confrontational, I'm just wondering if theres an angle I'm missing. I'm playing NL and honestly the new morale seems like it will have less impact now when in 8th I could LD bomb and use the Flayer relic to scare them away.

 

 

Cultist are more resistant to morale, because of attrition instead of "just lose everything". If you want to actively use morale maybe think about  "triggering as many checks as possible" instead of "single target jump scare". I assume NL will get some rules to modify attrition.

[The Ironic Warrior]

After watching the weekend matchup stream between the new Necrons and Primaris Marines in the upcoming box, I was genuinely surprised that the skeleton bois won overall; I was convinced that the Primaris would take it like they always do. GW just can't let them be beaten in general aside from this one occassion it would seem...

[Lord_Starscream]

After watching the weekend matchup stream between the new Necrons and Primaris Marines in the upcoming box, I was genuinely surprised that the skeleton bois won overall; I was convinced that the Primaris would take it like they always do. GW just can't let them be beaten in general aside from this one occassion it would seem...

 

I bluntly think those results were rigged, or the conditions of the test weren't realistic. I didn't believe it for a moment.

 

Engagement ranges of 12 inches also helps the Necrons a lot. What happens when things start at 36 inches? Disaster, that's what'd happen. Rapid fired bolt rifles will eat through Crons even as they try to get into range.

[Panzer]

After watching the weekend matchup stream between the new Necrons and Primaris Marines in the upcoming box, I was genuinely surprised that the skeleton bois won overall; I was convinced that the Primaris would take it like they always do. GW just can't let them be beaten in general aside from this one occassion it would seem...

 

They were just matching units in a void without any tactics, Stratagems, faction rules etc. though. Not really representative and honestly kind of a waste of time.

[The Ironic Warrior]

I was hoping for an actual battle rather than the staged fights, but it was something and I am glad the Primaris fanbois didn't walk all over the Crons. But I do agree, just like the Primarch fight that just "happened" to have the newest Primarch being the winner. Hmmmmmm suspicious indeed

[Khornestar]

I don’t disagree with all the doomsaying necessarily. However, being the underdog is “the point” of the faction, and since I started at the beginning of 6th, it’s always been this way. So be it. I have an all primaris army and traitor guardsmen (using loyalist rules) for variety.

 

All negativity (based in reality as it might be) aside, I am still excited to play and try stuff out.

 

I think if they figure out a non-idiotic way for the unit to function, rapier carriages might be pretty sweet. Since they’re vehicles, being able to move and keep bs3+ and small enough to hide behind walls sounds pretty sweet. I have doubts about all forge world units being carried forward, so we'll see.

 

Helbrutes being able to use heavy flamers in combat excites me, so a fist with flamer and a twin lascannon sounds like a pretty decent option for once. Being able to grab a vehicle with the fist and press both lascannon barrels against the hull is also exciting.

[Captain Incompetence]

Maybe we'll be seeing a special rule for Heldrakes where they can hook onto enemy aircraft like they showcase in the codex artwork? I think they even had such a rule in a previous edition, but I honestly can't remember.

[Doom Herald]

Cultist are more resistant to morale, because of attrition instead of "just lose everything". If you want to actively use morale maybe think about "triggering as many checks as possible" instead of "single target jump scare". I assume NL will get some rules to modify attrition.

I really do hope you're right about that last part. My faith in GW when it comes to Chaos is null, however.

[Doom Herald]

In my 26 years of 40k, imo, in respect to being a viable faction (in terms of being able to bring an army, rather than just monster mashing), Chaos is in the worst place I've ever seen. The 3.0 pamphlet codex, and the 4.0 slimmed down dog:cuss codex, at least gave Chaos Space Marines a viable backbone of Chaos Space Marines in those books. As it is right now, at every level Chaos is tactically incompetent, beyond gambling on deep strikes and bombs, or throwing waves of monsters out (which is just a sign of the desperate, IMO)

 

All the communities are withering like I've not seen, and all of the games I saw (prior to COVID), are gone.

 

Chaos is functionally extinct where I live already. Even a guy with 20,000 points of EC and 7,000 points DG, started selling off whatever he could that wasn't finished, and all he said was "I can't take this anymore", and has since moved on to Drukhari and one other faction (I can't remember, I think it's Admech).

 

I don't know anyone who willingly plays Chaos regionally anymore. 2019 is when the anger started to settle in and people started fleeing in droves, locally, or flipping to loyalist. 2020 cemented their exodus so far, especially the 9th previews.

 

To be honest, I think it's pretty over, even if it gets the release it needs. A lot of people got burned by how bad these units are. And even if they get new models, it won't fix the fact that the current offerings of units won't really work out anyway. They literally need an entire line refresh, which they ironically just got.

 

GW thought they could AOS it, and have SIgmarites vs. Weaker Chaos, but it looks like that flavour didn't work for 40k. So Chaos just, went away. If they realized their mistake, it'll take five years for them to fix at a minimum.

 

Welcome to the pit.

At the risk of sounding dramatic, I am genuinely considering sitting this edition out, and I'm definitely sitting the beginning out until they fix the inevitable launch mistakes and get CSM updated to 9th. I know everyone keeps calling this a small edition change, but it's big enough I don't even want to try with the current Codex. Edited July 6, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Khornestar]

I don’t necessarily blame you. I hope we don’t return to the situation of years past where 2-3 years (or more) could pass without any meaningful updates.

 

The problem is that we are never going to get rewrites of units for “free” so supplements or new codices are the only hope, and those are substantial productions and thus can’t be rolled out quickly... so it’s kinda tough to be optimistic beyond whatever our 9th edition codex brings us.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Juggernut

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'm really, really trying to stay posiitve about 9th, but the more I see it just seems most of my armies are going to struggle to really do anything other then be curbstomped in 9th.
Depending on points I'm trying to stay hopeful on noise marines, maybe just spam them and hope for the best?

[Prot]

When I read the assault rules, there was a complete void of reference to actually declaring an assault on a Flyer. (literally indicating it isn't a valid target). But then as mentioned, you can interact with the Flyer if you have the Fly keyword via Heroic Intervention or... "Pile in". Pile in is a direct result of activating an assault unit, right? So it feels like they are missing something in the rules.

 

The way we are currently playing it is you can ignore the flyer's base in the move phase, for moving past it. And fly units can assault them as usual.

 

As far as "Charging units going first,' I am also certain that is the way it goes unless you interrupt? But it is important to note, and I put this in my battle report, the opponent gets the first non-charge activation, which is new, and pretty important.

 

+EDIT+ Cheex, thanks for the clarity on "Breechable". I missed that entirely. We didn't catch the fact you can't walk infantry through walls (unless breechable) until hafway through the game, so I would say it was mostly a nonfactor, but still note worthy.

 

Cheex, I see you ran into a lot of the issues I did. Assault is inherently a little easier due to table size, but I would say the new rules to assault actual make it more difficult on almost every level. (except the 5" vertical rule.)

Edited July 6, 2020 by Prot

[Relentless]

It seems like Berzerkers are gonna be losers as they have several soft nerfs coming: blast weapons, vehicles shooting in combat, coherency, not being able to declare multiple units for charge (this feels like a hard nerf to their fight twice ability).  This sucks as I just started playing WE and painted up a bunch of bloody bois.  Given their already high cost, could they be getting shelved this edition?

[Relic]

First game of "9th" later this week - initial impressions is that CSM is a mid range army with good close combat so smaller boards should help. More soup costs will hurt.. a lot. How many took Ahriman for a reliable caster of waprtime and prescience?! 

 

Missions will tell more. For example Cultists on the face of it took a hit, but if sitting on objectives wins games maybe that changes the equation. Also it appears that morale matters less for big units and more for smaller one's now? (although we have a few ways to mitigate morale anyways).

 

My prediction is an initial swing towards tanks and monsters, but then who knows. Mid board control seems to be king and CSM do that well at least. 

[Lord_Starscream]

It seems like Berzerkers are gonna be losers as they have several soft nerfs coming: blast weapons, vehicles shooting in combat, coherency, not being able to declare multiple units for charge (this feels like a hard nerf to their fight twice ability).  This sucks as I just started playing WE and painted up a bunch of bloody bois.  Given their already high cost, could they be getting shelved this edition?

 

 

Chaos Space Marines as a faction, will likely be shelved this edition. Much as they were last edition.

[Subtle Discord]

*Subtle sticks his fingers in his ears and starts singing loudly*

 

La la la la la! Laaaaa laaaaa laaaaa! La la la la la!

 

*He then notices that it's not working because he's reading*

 

I'm not listening... err... reading! Nope, I'm getting back to my Chaos this edition no matter what. *sigh* I guess it's a good thing it's more about the modeling and painting for me, but that doesn't mean I don't care if the rules are solid and at least reasonably competitive, obviously. Lets see how they treat any non Loyalist Marine codex now that 9th is here and maybe we can get a sense if GW can see that adjustments need to be on the level of what they did for Marines if they're serious about helping the factions that are really showing their age in how their rules are designed. GW has a remarkable way of being oblivious, obtuse, stubborn, or something, (so hard to say what it is exactly) when it comes time to try and smooth some of the wrinkles out of their game, so I'm being cautiously hopeful, but keeping my expectations realistic based on history. There's no denying they're company philosophy as a whole is much better then it used to be, but they still have plenty of room for improvement. Let's hope they can see it, maybe.

[Doom Herald]

I think EC will do pretty well out of the CSM this edition. Superior mid-range abilities with Noise Marines (as troops), blast masters are more powerful with Blast rule, Legion trait means your oponent attacking first is negated, Endless Cacophony, Excess of Violence when melee hits, good charging capabilities, throw in some Venomcrawlers for the hybrid melee/shooter. Not really my thing, but seems somewhat solid.

 

Edit: of course, that means getting resin sonic weapons.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I think EC will do pretty well out of the CSM this edition. Superior mid-range abilities with Noise Marines (as troops), blast masters are more powerful with Blast rule, Legion trait means your oponent attacking first is negated, Endless Cacophony, Excess of Violence when melee hits, good charging capabilities, throw in some Venomcrawlers for the hybrid melee/shooter. Not really my thing, but seems somewhat solid.

 

Edit: of course, that means getting resin sonic weapons.

 

We're expecting an EC codex/supplement release soon, which presumably will bring a new Noise Marine kit/upgrade sprue. Latest rumors i've seen is christmas, but we've been having rumors of it for all of 8th too, so who really knows.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Drudge Dreadnought

[Gree]

Yeah, I got to agree about Emperor's Children being one of the winners of the new edition. I mean, they're not top-tier competitive, but many of the changes benefit them.