9th Ed Speculation Thread

[BrainFireBob]

Chosen+CSMs? Reaper, combi bolter, combi bolters, chainswords. Rhino with Havoc launcher?

[Doom Herald]

I think the problem with purely trying for board control and midrange is that SM armies will do it also and better. I know it's a trap to fall into thinking of every game in terms of fighting SM, but they will be the big enemy. We are still faster than most loyalist marine armies with the right units. Winged DP, Venomcrawlers, Disco Lord will probably still be good between speed and multi-wound weapons. I suspect we will see lots of small Primaris units easy to wipe with the above mentioned units. I think maybe CSM squads with an autocannon will do even better in 9th. With board control being a greater concern they will have more consistent and viable targets in the enemy troops. We need to get control first and prevent the enemy with either fast melee units or longer range guns on troops. Finally, I think Obliterators will be invaluable in breaking enemy units that already have objectives in the mid game. I occasionally hear talk of randomness being a concern with them, but I have NEVER felt like they under-perform. They are also extremely tough, particularly with the Slaanesh power. Havocs, on the other hand, I'm not a fan of outside of AL or IW since they die so easy and cost so much. Edited July 9, 2020 by Doom Herald

[MegaVolt87]

If our big guys like disco lord, DP etc have a dmg cap rule like ghaz that would solve a lot of problems since we have less HQ slots now overal. 

[Captain Incompetence]

After reading the Eternal War missions and some of the secondary objectives a bit more, I'm thinking that maybe bringing my bikers or raptors isn't such a bad idea anymore. They'll probably still die like flies, but if they manage to remain semi-cheap, they might just make their point cost back in VP from secondary objectives?

[Relentless]

The more I think about the new coherency rules and the consequences for zerkers, possesed, hell even guardsmen, it seems like a rule designed to punish every faction but SM (who do MSU anyway thanks to primaris).  I dont even think it's unintentional at this point.

[Doom Herald]

The more I think about the new coherency rules and the consequences for zerkers, possesed, hell even guardsmen, it seems like a rule designed to punish every faction but SM (who do MSU anyway thanks to primaris). I dont even think it's unintentional at this point.

And who has the combat squads rule, meaning they get 2 small units for the slots of 1.

 

I have a strong feeling that 70-80% of GWs "playtesting" is Imperial Space Marines, and probably most often against other Imperial Space Marines. It's like it should be "Warhammer: Imperial Astartes (with some other stuff to make money off of).

Edited July 10, 2020 by Doom Herald

[MDops]

 

The more I think about the new coherency rules and the consequences for zerkers, possesed, hell even guardsmen, it seems like a rule designed to punish every faction but SM (who do MSU anyway thanks to primaris). I dont even think it's unintentional at this point.

And who has the combat squads rule, meaning they get 2 small units for the slots of 1.

 

I have a strong feeling that 70-80% of GWs "playtesting" is Imperial Space Marines, and probably most often against other Imperial Space Marines. It's like it should be "Warhammer: Imperial Astartes (with some other stuff to make money off of).

This might be a meta hang over thing. Imperials are, from what I understand, are the major force of the tournament scene.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

The more I think about the new coherency rules and the consequences for zerkers, possesed, hell even guardsmen, it seems like a rule designed to punish every faction but SM (who do MSU anyway thanks to primaris). I dont even think it's unintentional at this point.

And who has the combat squads rule, meaning they get 2 small units for the slots of 1.

 

I have a strong feeling that 70-80% of GWs "playtesting" is Imperial Space Marines, and probably most often against other Imperial Space Marines. It's like it should be "Warhammer: Imperial Astartes (with some other stuff to make money off of).

This might be a meta hang over thing. Imperials are, from what I understand, are the major force of the tournament scene.

 

 

That meta can shift to diversity if all factions are treated with the same reverence and respect. 

[Excessus]

The more I think about the new coherency rules and the consequences for zerkers, possesed, hell even guardsmen, it seems like a rule designed to punish every faction but SM (who do MSU anyway thanks to primaris).  I dont even think it's unintentional at this point.

...and then you think about the new character rules and suddenly you need to pop one or two heads and then you can start to target their characters.

[Panzer]

 

The more I think about the new coherency rules and the consequences for zerkers, possesed, hell even guardsmen, it seems like a rule designed to punish every faction but SM (who do MSU anyway thanks to primaris).  I dont even think it's unintentional at this point.

...and then you think about the new character rules and suddenly you need to pop one or two heads and then you can start to target their characters.

 

 

Also that Primaris Troops are really expensive so for a Battalion of MSU Troops you already need to pay about 300p and so if they want to actually use combat squads it would be about 400-600 points just in Troops without having bought any of the other also very expensive characters, Elites or vehicles (for the record, a Repulsor currently costs about as much as a Knight).

Edited July 10, 2020 by Panzer

[Relic]

I think the coherency rule is more to make armies look like formations rather then sprawling conga lines which is not aesthetically please. I can appreciate the intent behind that. 

 

My very initial impressions is that it ain't all bad for CSM. I don't think you will go too far wrong at the start of 9th playing a combined arms force of some powerful mid range shooting, babysitter units for characters, mobility to get at objectives and a strong counter close combat unit all of which CSM have in the toolbox.  

 

At some point the CSM codex will get a redo in 9th which should hopefully address the characters issue. A lot of them like the warpsmith, exalted champion and master of executions could be moved to the elite slots for example. Updated legion traits, the faith and fury material and some redo on the marks of chaos would do me tbh! 

 

Regarding characters, at most we are probably looking at 3-4 HQ slots now. Without points and full rules it is hard to judge of course, but what are your initial thoughts on the priorities here? For me a CSM lord and Sorcerer are nearly mandatory as you want a re-roll bubble and prescience+ one of warptime or delightful agonies/weaver of fates in nearly every game for combos that CSM can pull off. Considering the secondaries include kill the Warlord/psychic caster I think I may use mine more conservatively as buff units rather then for example throwing my lord into the fray on a jump pack. In my first game of 9th I had both firmly hidden in two max units of fearless cultists and some chain havocs+oblits around as well!      

[Doom Herald]

For me, priority goes to winged DP. With the vehicle shooting changes, I'm actually going to have to put my Disco Lord together. After that, somewhere between a Lord and Sorcerer. In 8th my lords had my relics, one with Flayer (NL power sword) and one with Nurgle Fist (stacking +1 to hit from various sources), both of these took a major nerf. If they aren't completely overwhelming in melee, I feel like Lords are wasted. Sorcerer's will be pretty important now, I think. On the other hand, with characters being fewer and Souping more costly, I might actually consider an MoP now.

 

It would be nice to see a few of our characters move to elite slots, but some I feel like should have been there from the beginning and there would still be issues with. The MoE, for example needs something still, even if he were an elite.

 

Edit: Just a quick note, it looks like by the new rules a Disco Lord will protect other characters (including DP) from being shot, since the Disco is both a vehicle and 9+ wounds. The same would be true of say, a Great Unclean one (monster with 9+ wounds).

Edited July 10, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Prot]

For me, priority goes to winged DP. With the vehicle shooting changes, I'm actually going to have to put my Disco Lord together. After that, somewhere between a Lord and Sorcerer. In 8th my lords had my relics, one with Flayer (NL power sword) and one with Nurgle Fist (stacking +1 to hit from various sources), both of these took a major nerf. If they aren't completely overwhelming in melee, I feel like Lords are wasted. Sorcerer's will be pretty important now, I think. On the other hand, with characters being fewer and Souping more costly, I might actually consider an MoP now.

 

It would be nice to see a few of our characters move to elite slots, but some I feel like should have been there from the beginning and there would still be issues with. The MoE, for example needs something still, even if he were an elite.

 

Edit: Just a quick note, it looks like by the new rules a Disco Lord will protect other characters (including DP) from being shot, since the Disco is both a vehicle and 9+ wounds. The same would be true of say, a Great Unclean one (monster with 9+ wounds).

 

I agree. (But I'm pretty sure the Disco Lord in 8th did the same protection for characters.)

 

There's no reason a fist full of Chaos HQ's shouldn't be Elites, and as I've recently said that includes Bile. 

 

I will be taking Abaddon as my Supreme Command. He always was my Warlord anyway. This allows me 3 more HQ's if I take a Battalion. The problem I have with Disco Lords is I found even in non-tournament play, that you need minimum 2, if not 3. 

 

If not, you end up packing it up T1 almost 100% of the time. It's too much of a "Daemon Engine Buff" and Enemy Vehicle debuffer to leave unchecked. But then you add your psychic support (a must in almost any Chaos list) and that doesn't leave you very much for HQ support, if any.

 

My Oblits are back.... my Helbrutes are back. My Black Legion Termies are back. My Heldrake is back, but the rest is pretty unknown. (especially troops.)

[Doom Herald]

They did say that the specialist detachments from Vigilus were sticking around at one point. With the warlord trait for the Daemon engine one, that puts him at 14" movement plus his charge range for 28" + charge with warptime. With smaller boards, I think he can do some good damage before he drops. Then, theres the strat for advance and charge (24" +2D6" +charge). Even without the specialist dettachment, that's 24" +charge.

 

Maybe run as Agents of Bile for an extra +1 to movement. Add Helm of All Seeing to relieve some CP costs or Living Carapace for durability, maybe Supreme Creation, all of those would add speed or durability.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Excessus]

But with them costing CP realistically speaking you're limited to one. Better make it count.

[Doom Herald]

But with them costing CP realistically speaking you're limited to one. Better make it count.

With CP regenerating and options to regain/refund I don't think it will be that bad. If Red Corsairs are relatively unchanged, that's an easy 3 extra CP, plus advance and charge would make them a prime candidate.

[Excessus]

Red corsairs will be nasty if nothing changes with their trait imho.

[Prot]

They did say that the specialist detachments from Vigilus were sticking around at one point. With the warlord trait for the Daemon engine one, that puts him at 14" movement plus his charge range for 28" + charge with warptime. With smaller boards, I think he can do some good damage before he drops. Then, theres the strat for advance and charge (24" +2D6" +charge). Even without the specialist dettachment, that's 24" +charge.

 

Maybe run as Agents of Bile for an extra +1 to movement. Add Helm of All Seeing to relieve some CP costs or Living Carapace for durability, maybe Supreme Creation, all of those would add speed or durability.

 

Well you'll have to try it. 

 

I did my tests with 2 and it wasn't quite worth it. I didn't have enough proper support and there is a lot of armies that still dissect them pretty easily. Granted when one of mine make it, it's huge. I played my Daemon Engine detachment as Flawless Host, and had my Abaddon Spearhead (shooty) join it.

 

It could still work, but do the math on the CP:

1 CP for detachment, 1 CP for Detachment Trait, 1 CP for advance and charge (non-renegade)

2-3 CP for secondary Detachment. 

 

Your 5-6 CP in the hole before additional WL traits/Relics, etc. To me that's just too much especially when I'm coming from a dual Bat. design I used all through 8th.

 

We are -exceptionally- CP dependent. But in 8th we could manufacture it.

 

I do like the Vigilus detachments. I've used them all... dozens of times. But that was in the era they were designed for (getting 15 CP to start was not uncommon for me. Adding support psychics was easier, etc.)

 

The good news is that in 9th I've found being hyper aggressive against a very large portion of the meta is a good thing. Of course the ability to swing 'up' 5" into CC is a plus as well. 

[Doom Herald]

The two main factions I would look at are Agents of Bile and Red Corsairs.

 

Agents of Bile:

Base Move: 12".

[-1CP] Specialist Detachment.

[-1CP] Field Commander: +2" movement (14").

Legion Trait: +1" movement (15").

30" with Warptime +2D6" charge (Avg 37).

Optional, [-1CP] Infernal Engines: +2D6 for advance (Avg 44").

Total: -3CP

Min: 34" melee threat range, Avg: 44" melee threat range, Max: 58" melee threat range.

Add Supreme Creation [-1CP](The Master's Hound) and it changes to Total: -4CP

Min: 37", Avg: 47", Max: 60".

 

It is CP heavy, but you generate one each turn and don't always need the advance and charge strat. Also, you can throw in Helm of All Seeing on another character.

 

Red Corsairs:

Base Move: 12".

[-1CP] Specialist Detachment.

Warlord Trait: +2" movement (14").

[+3CP] Legion Trait: Advance and Charge.

28" with Warptime + 2D6" advance + 2D6" charge (42" Avg).

Total: +2CP

Min: 32", Avg: 42" Max: 52"

 

Red Corsairs definitely are easier on the CP, but Creations of Bile are a fair bit faster and will be at +1S and +1 attack, with access to either a CP refunding relic or a defensive relic and you can choose a different Supreme Creation trait. Ravenous Biology comes to mind, paired with Living Carapace, that means:

Sv:1+, 6+ FNP, Regen 2 wounds, Regen D3 if any models were destroyed within 1", Regen D3 if it destroys a vehicle. Potential 8 wounds regenerated if it kills a vehicle in melee, average of 6.

 

On a side note, it looks like you can add a Red Corsairs Patrol of 1HQ and 3 CSM squads will gain you 1CP net.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Are Verlo]

The two main factions I would look at are Agents of Bile and Red Corsairs.

 

Agents of Bile:

Base Move: 12".

[-1CP] Specialist Detachment.

[-1CP] Field Commander: +2" movement (14").

Legion Trait: +1" movement (15").

30" with Warptime +2D6" charge (Avg 37).

Optional, [-1CP] Infernal Engines: +2D6 for advance (Avg 44").

Total: -3CP

Min: 34" melee threat range, Avg: 44" melee threat range, Max: 58" melee threat range.

Add Supreme Creation [-1CP](The Master's Hound) and it changes to Total: -4CP

Min: 37", Avg: 47", Max: 60".

 

It is CP heavy, but you generate one each turn and don't always need the advance and charge strat. Also, you can throw in Helm of All Seeing on another character.

 

Red Corsairs:

Base Move: 12".

[-1CP] Specialist Detachment.

Warlord Trait: +2" movement (14").

[+3CP] Legion Trait: Advance and Charge.

28" with Warptime + 2D6" advance + 2D6" charge (42" Avg).

Total: +2CP

Min: 32", Avg: 42" Max: 52"

 

Red Corsairs definitely are easier on the CP, but Creations of Bile are a fair bit faster and will be at +1S and +1 attack, with access to either a CP refunding relic or a defensive relic and you can choose a different Supreme Creation trait. Ravenous Biology comes to mind, paired with Living Carapace, that means:

Sv:1+, 6+ FNP, Regen 2 wounds, Regen D3 if any models were destroyed within 1", Regen D3 if it destroys a vehicle. Potential 8 wounds regenerated if it kills a vehicle in melee, average of 6.

 

On a side note, it looks like you can add a Red Corsairs Patrol of 1HQ and 3 CSM squads will gain you 1CP net.

Sure about that? How is the corsairs ability worded? If it increases command benefit, those CP are only given if your warlord is from the patrol detatchment .

 

But as far as we know, the RC’s ability might be reworked for 9th ed.

[Doom Herald]

It says "that detachment's command benefit" is increased. New edition erata will have to clarify how it will work, that's why Red Corsaira are all speculation right now.

[Relic]

I wonder if Warp Talons starting on the board turn one could be a thing with smaller board sizes? You could feasibly warptime them into combat turn one like a missile to tie up units/clear an objective off. 

 

Also what secondaries are people planning to take? 

[adreal]

I wonder if Warp Talons starting on the board turn one could be a thing with smaller board sizes? You could feasibly warptime them into combat turn one like a missile to tie up units/clear an objective off.

 

Also what secondaries are people planning to take?

Raptors would do the same thing cheaper though

[Doom Herald]

Yeah, I think Raptors will be another winner in this edition considering the chainsword is getting a buff.

[Doom Herald]

Loosely related to Raptors and Warp Talons, the new "Out of Phase" rules specify that when you take action as if it were a different phase, any rules that would normally apply in that phase would still apply (except for strats that require it to be that phase). This means that Chiropteran Wings now work during Warp Time, meaning 3 possible instances per turn to use it.