9th Ed Speculation Thread

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

 

 

One is way better than the other, overall, so the points reflect that. Dual chainclaw contemptors ftw! Too bad hellflamers are so expensive, and plasma blasters dangerous. Soul burners also expensive.

.

 

While I don't have any levi's, I believe ours were still capable of scrapping knights in melee on the charge in 8th according to the internets/ here.

 

Yeah I bet it still can, just has to survive. At least a leviathan can utilize terrain

 

As someone who used contemptors a lot with my TS and on with my EC, ouch. My TS hellforged predator will see a lot more use though now, and it's one of my best painted models so I am happy with that at least.

No idea what to do with my FW voucher now though, was planning a contemptor, scorpius or sicaran veneator, now not so sure, last I head the chaos venator was hardly used so going up to 200 sees to have rendered it useless again.

I’m gonna give the flame storm cannon variant a go this edition. Still not insanely good or anything, but should be fun to move quickly with other fast moving things.

 

I admit I'm starting to look at the flamestorm now, I initially thought about it ages agao but decided it wouldn't be worth it as the flamers couldn't be used in combat, now however I'm thinking it could be nice, especially if maybe paired up with a duel fist contemptor or some terminators as a forward threat.

 

Starting to be a bit more hopefull about ninth now I have had time to think but will wait till I have the books in my hands before making decisions.

[MegaVolt87]

Crazy speculation- new possesed unit kit, new termi lords based off new art (demon hammer guy) as the new models to accompany our new 9th ed CSM codex. Maybe a new demonic vehicle, another flyer perhaps, a heavier one. I don't see us getting another codex specific LOW, unless GW pulls a fast one and gives us another demon primarch from either WB, IW, or AL. I just don't see a new codex release for us without any new unit kits at all for CSM. 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Crazy speculation- new possesed unit kit, new termi lords based off new art (demon hammer guy) as the new models to accompany our new 9th ed CSM codex. Maybe a new demonic vehicle, another flyer perhaps, a heavier one. I don't see us getting another codex specific LOW, unless GW pulls a fast one and gives us another demon primarch from either WB, IW, or AL. I just don't see a new codex release for us without any new unit kits at all for CSM. 

 

I also wouldn't be surprised to see them finish the Chaos line refresh whenever they next turn their eyes to them. We've seen how much they were willing to expand the Necron line! The new Chaos Marines, Havocs and Terminators were a good start to a range refresh, and I think prove that they don't plan to Primaris Chaos or drop terminators as they seem to have for Loyalists. If they continue the range refresh, it'd be logical to see a new multipart Terminator HQ kit, and also multi-part non-terminator HQ kit. Also new Possessed and Chosen, and perhaps bikers. Raptors don't really need a refresh as they're still fairly modern.

 

Of course, i'd also expect new Noise Marines and Berzerkers whenever EC and WE come out.

 

The question is, how long will we need to wait? And will our rules get fixed?

[MegaVolt87]

Just to drill into the termi characters/ lord potential update more- Would the new kit still be a duo of sorc and lord, possible new termi DA since we seem to be losing options like JP, bikes, steeds etc. Or maybe a dual sorc + DA termi kit, termi lord erperate with demon hammer, other demonic weapon options? In my mind, there is more crossover in visual design elements with sorc, DA and MoP these days. That's how I would do it anyway. 

[Lord_Starscream]

 

Crazy speculation- new possesed unit kit, new termi lords based off new art (demon hammer guy) as the new models to accompany our new 9th ed CSM codex. Maybe a new demonic vehicle, another flyer perhaps, a heavier one. I don't see us getting another codex specific LOW, unless GW pulls a fast one and gives us another demon primarch from either WB, IW, or AL. I just don't see a new codex release for us without any new unit kits at all for CSM. 

 

I also wouldn't be surprised to see them finish the Chaos line refresh whenever they next turn their eyes to them. We've seen how much they were willing to expand the Necron line! The new Chaos Marines, Havocs and Terminators were a good start to a range refresh, and I think prove that they don't plan to Primaris Chaos or drop terminators as they seem to have for Loyalists. If they continue the range refresh, it'd be logical to see a new multipart Terminator HQ kit, and also multi-part non-terminator HQ kit. Also new Possessed and Chosen, and perhaps bikers. Raptors don't really need a refresh as they're still fairly modern.

 

Of course, i'd also expect new Noise Marines and Berzerkers whenever EC and WE come out.

 

The question is, how long will we need to wait? And will our rules get fixed?

 

 

 

I think keeping Chaos Marines in the past, keeping them as OldMarines, no matter how they tweak it, is the ultimate death sentence for the army. Even though I'm going to finish painting what I have, I have a bunch of boxsets still, and I'm very seriously thinking about liquidating them at 2/3rds their cost just to get them gone. I see myself playing Space Marines, Orks, and various Eldar in the years to come, but Chaos? I really do see myself just walking away. I think refreshing old models into new models, while adding very little to nothing new, is going to be the MO for Chaos.

 

Even army wide disciplines and ect, I just don't see fixing the core, legitimate problems with the range. The problem with the range is they are expected to fight superior opponents.

 

The points leaks putting CSM to 14 points a model? A 3 point increase? An unplayed unit whenever possible, got a 3 point increase, when the Primaris got a 1 point increase? Chaos in 9th is shaping up to be exactly what I thought it'd be.

 

A bad joke.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

 

Crazy speculation- new possesed unit kit, new termi lords based off new art (demon hammer guy) as the new models to accompany our new 9th ed CSM codex. Maybe a new demonic vehicle, another flyer perhaps, a heavier one. I don't see us getting another codex specific LOW, unless GW pulls a fast one and gives us another demon primarch from either WB, IW, or AL. I just don't see a new codex release for us without any new unit kits at all for CSM. 

 

I also wouldn't be surprised to see them finish the Chaos line refresh whenever they next turn their eyes to them. We've seen how much they were willing to expand the Necron line! The new Chaos Marines, Havocs and Terminators were a good start to a range refresh, and I think prove that they don't plan to Primaris Chaos or drop terminators as they seem to have for Loyalists. If they continue the range refresh, it'd be logical to see a new multipart Terminator HQ kit, and also multi-part non-terminator HQ kit. Also new Possessed and Chosen, and perhaps bikers. Raptors don't really need a refresh as they're still fairly modern.

 

Of course, i'd also expect new Noise Marines and Berzerkers whenever EC and WE come out.

 

The question is, how long will we need to wait? And will our rules get fixed?

 

 

 

I think keeping Chaos Marines in the past, keeping them as OldMarines, no matter how they tweak it, is the ultimate death sentence for the army. Even though I'm going to finish painting what I have, I have a bunch of boxsets still, and I'm very seriously thinking about liquidating them at 2/3rds their cost just to get them gone. I see myself playing Space Marines, Orks, and various Eldar in the years to come, but Chaos? I really do see myself just walking away. I think refreshing old models into new models, while adding very little to nothing new, is going to be the MO for Chaos.

 

Even army wide disciplines and ect, I just don't see fixing the core, legitimate problems with the range. The problem with the range is they are expected to fight superior opponents.

 

The points leaks putting CSM to 14 points a model? A 3 point increase? An unplayed unit whenever possible, got a 3 point increase, when the Primaris got a 1 point increase? Chaos in 9th is shaping up to be exactly what I thought it'd be.

 

A bad joke.

 

 

I share your concern. I haven't collected any new models since 5th ed. But I'm still waiting to see what Chaos gets when they do get a rules update. If they are left worthless even after that, then i'll give up on them entirely. But I hope they get their rules fixed, as I like the new models and would like to rebuild my armies with updated kits.

 

 

 

Just to drill into the termi characters/ lord potential update more- Would the new kit still be a duo of sorc and lord, possible new termi DA since we seem to be losing options like JP, bikes, steeds etc. Or maybe a dual sorc + DA termi kit, termi lord erperate with demon hammer, other demonic weapon options? In my mind, there is more crossover in visual design elements with sorc, DA and MoP these days. That's how I would do it anyway. 

 

I hope we get terminator versions of the Apostle, Exalted Champ, MoP, and even master of executions. All they need to do is make a kit with a bunch of options and say it builds all of those in addition to Lord and Sorc, and then run off some datasheets. Same thing for jump pack versions.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Drudge Dreadnought

[Lord_Starscream]

 

 

 

 

I share your concern. I haven't collected any new models since 5th ed. But I'm still waiting to see what Chaos gets when they do get a rules update. If they are left worthless even after that, then i'll give up on them entirely. But I hope they get their rules fixed, as I like the new models and would like to rebuild my armies with updated kits.

 

 

I did that myself.

 

I honestly regret it.

[MegaVolt87]

I am just concerned our power armoured chosen may well disappear as an option completely. Kabalite trueborn were like the DE version kinda and they disappeared and they were also built with the troop box when it was new at the time. I could see instead of chaos terminators, they re-name them chosen chaos terminators, only chosen of the gods/ legion mighty enough for such power yada, yada in the lore entry. If we do get them, I expect a 5 man box priced like the new havocs, instead of a ten man box. 

[Maschinenpriester]

I am just concerned our power armoured chosen may well disappear as an option completely. Kabalite trueborn were like the DE version kinda and they disappeared and they were also built with the troop box when it was new at the time. I could see instead of chaos terminators, they re-name them chosen chaos terminators, only chosen of the gods/ legion mighty enough for such power yada, yada in the lore entry. If we do get them, I expect a 5 man box priced like the new havocs, instead of a ten man box.

I would rather have a new box packed with options, to also supplement the standard csm box and kitbash a bit. Right now my chosen are the new csm. And the old csm are regular csm.

but if they would disappear... I guess I would just stick to 8th then =D

They got points though. So they won't dissappear this edition I guess.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Maschinenpriester

[adreal]

Until chaos get a new codex, the only sure fire units are the ones with kits (and even some of them may go).

 

I would like chaos to get something, but making them primaris is not the answer.

 

Maybe have two types of power armour troops

Renegades, pretty much what we have now, add in grav, option to take lesser marks (which should be free and do something)

 

And chaos space marines, true veterans of the long war.

Let them take volkite as special weapons along with what they have now, give them a 6+ shrug and let them fury of the legion (shoot twice)

 

Add in legion traits for all our vehicles and let us take lesser daemons as troops.

 

As good as loyalists? No, but its something

[Lord_Starscream]

Until chaos get a new codex, the only sure fire units are the ones with kits (and even some of them may go).

 

I would like chaos to get something, but making them primaris is not the answer.

 

Maybe have two types of power armour troops

Renegades, pretty much what we have now, add in grav, option to take lesser marks (which should be free and do something)

 

And chaos space marines, true veterans of the long war.

Let them take volkite as special weapons along with what they have now, give them a 6+ shrug and let them fury of the legion (shoot twice)

 

Add in legion traits for all our vehicles and let us take lesser daemons as troops.

 

As good as loyalists? No, but its something

 

Until they get them, expect Chaos to not field real armies. The only "survival" mechanism for the "army" will be fielding an array of illogical units to try and exploit buffs. The fact 9th heavily lends towards board control also is going to be pitifully devastating.

 

Band aids won't fix the problem. The range is unserved. Keeping them as oldmarines will only result in repeated failures to launch, just like we had in 8th edition.

 

Mark my words. When the next botched relaunch comes, without some Primaris allegory, and without 30 inch ranged Bolt Rifles, the pain will continue until people just abandon this faction all together.

 

The loyalist players were up-in-arms about Primaris too. Now, all of them only want Primaris, or at least 95+% do, and the oldmarines are literally forgotten.

 

It's go to the future, or stay in the past. Staying in the past just means being an increasingly unplayable army.

[Panzer]

Honestly can't stand this doom&gloom. It would be annoying even if I'd agree with your view but I don't even do that.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

This "oh no, we're a terrible army, Chaos sucks, abandon ship!" mentality seems awfully familiar...reminds me of the dark days of 4th & 5th Edition when the Chaos boards here were a veritable cesspool of people proclaiming that the faction is garbage, our codex is terrible, and you should quit playing.

 

We've never hit the height of power we had with the 3.5 codex. Perhaps we never will. But just because Primaris are the new hotness is no reason to jump out the airlock for most people. If you're a competitive player and can't make the faction work for you, sure, sell out to Primaris. No need to complain about it, the rest of us here for the awesome lore, cool models, sweet conversions, and non-tournament games don't want to hear you moan & groan.

[Khornestar]

I think we’ve said all there is to say about the power level of the army versus Primaris.

 

Stay bitter, stay in the fight. Only the strong survive. The weak offer up their blood and skulls to Khorne, willingly or otherwise.

[Marshal Loss]

The lack of balance when compared to our loyalist comrades is, to put it mildly, rather frustrating. There is no good reason for them to be better than us at everything. The introduction of the Primaris marine has ushered in a bold new era of favouritism and terrible lore so poorly written as to be actively harmful to my mental, physical, and spiritual health. GW's writers are bad. But some key points which somewhat alleviate the situation:

 

1. Everybody sucks compared to Primaris, not just us
2. At least we have an awesome range of models now

 

And if I'm being honest, pure CSM, post-Faith & Fury, are in the best position - fluff and power wise - than any era since 3.5 by a mile. Being able to do things like Red Butchers, even by proxy, is really cool. We still need a fundamental rewrite and I'll continue to criticize GW for their favouritism but things certainly aren't as bad as they used to be.

 

Now GW just needs to release EC and I'm gold

[Excessus]

This "oh no, we're a terrible army, Chaos sucks, abandon ship!" mentality seems awfully familiar...reminds me of the dark days of 4th & 5th Edition when the Chaos boards here were a veritable cesspool of people proclaiming that the faction is garbage, our codex is terrible, and you should quit playing.

Don't remind me. Forget melta-ing topics, there was a whole lot of chainaxe & blood-for-the-blood-god culling back then as an answer to it. *Glances at his chainaxe in the corner*

 

 

Of course, people are right to be frustrated and it's easy to see why. But when it's doom and gloom it's easy to become non-constructive, and I'm positive there is a constructive way to handle this. After all, we are the veterans of the long war, what is waiting a few months for a new codex for us?

 

 

We have a lot of things to look forward to in 9th imho. EC and WE must surely be coming this edition, right? And a new Codex for the unaligned legions and pirates is a sure bet as well. The new rules for 9th have been teased but I'll be waiting for the official release for all those little tidbits that the youtubers haven't found yet. Also, the CA is coming, and though we might have the costs and FAQs, there can be a whole lot of more to come still.

[Special Officer Doofy]

This "oh no, we're a terrible army, Chaos sucks, abandon ship!" mentality seems awfully familiar...reminds me of the dark days of 4th & 5th Edition when the Chaos boards here were a veritable cesspool of people proclaiming that the faction is garbage, our codex is terrible, and you should quit playing.

 

We've never hit the height of power we had with the 3.5 codex. Perhaps we never will. But just because Primaris are the new hotness is no reason to jump out the airlock for most people. If you're a competitive player and can't make the faction work for you, sure, sell out to Primaris. No need to complain about it, the rest of us here for the awesome lore, cool models, sweet conversions, and non-tournament games don't want to hear you moan & groan.

Speak for yourself. I rather not sugarcoat it and pretend they are in a good spot.

[Panzer]

There's a huge difference between sugarcoating and simply not moaning about something all the time though.

[Khornestar]

No one has to pretend anything, and we should welcome diversity of opinions.

 

But how many times does one need to say, “it sucks”? Let it be once and move on, if there’s nothing else to add. I’m guilty of moaning too, but I’d rather shift my mindset somewhere productive and enjoyable. Work in progress!

Edited July 15, 2020 by Juggernut

[Prot]

Crazy speculation- new possesed unit kit, new termi lords based off new art (demon hammer guy) as the new models to accompany our new 9th ed CSM codex. Maybe a new demonic vehicle, another flyer perhaps, a heavier one. I don't see us getting another codex specific LOW, unless GW pulls a fast one and gives us another demon primarch from either WB, IW, or AL. I just don't see a new codex release for us without any new unit kits at all for CSM. 

 

Actually I've been saying for a long time my suspicion has always been that the Primaris that Fabius is peeling apart will end up being mega-possessed. 

 

Ruleswise they would/should end up being a hybrid of Mutilators(! remember these duds?) and Possessed. Perfect for 3 wound, 5 man squads. I'm just trying to figure out how they could be a dual kit. 

 

A new Termie Lord would be amazing, but I honestly don't think I'd ever use one.

 

I think 9th has (apparently) made a lot of old Chaos staples, and new models -extremely- hard to pull off now... HQ's are so limited without penalty, and some 'new' models almost have no function now: DiscoLords (up 30 points?!) , stuff like Fabius fighting for an HQ slot, Venomcrawlers, newer CSM troops... all really in a poor spot imo. 

 

I personally think the last thing Chaos needs at all is an HQ. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

Pretty easy to block people last I checked. The stuff people are complaining about is true. GW makes Primaris better than old marines to push models and by default that makes chaos marines suck. It's a few points more for double wounds and attacks, longer range, and more -ap. They buff assault in time for the Primaris melee release. Chaos's main advantage was better HQ's and those are harder to bring now with the change to Supreme command Detachment and having to pay CP to bring another Detatchment. Not a whole lot to look forward to. Would you rather just lock the thread? I see comments/discussion, even if doomy and gloomy, better than no comments, and better than the comments telling people to pretty much "shut up" or "you're annoying". I get stuff out of lanparths and other guy's comments and nothing out of the quit complaining comments. Hence the speak for yourself.

[Khornestar]

Nah frater. You’re actively making the thread and the forum worse, and deliberately.

 

You’ve made your point. We get it.

[Panzer]

 

Crazy speculation- new possesed unit kit, new termi lords based off new art (demon hammer guy) as the new models to accompany our new 9th ed CSM codex. Maybe a new demonic vehicle, another flyer perhaps, a heavier one. I don't see us getting another codex specific LOW, unless GW pulls a fast one and gives us another demon primarch from either WB, IW, or AL. I just don't see a new codex release for us without any new unit kits at all for CSM. 

 

Actually I've been saying for a long time my suspicion has always been that the Primaris that Fabius is peeling apart will end up being mega-possessed. 

 

Ruleswise they would/should end up being a hybrid of Mutilators(! remember these duds?) and Possessed. Perfect for 3 wound, 5 man squads. I'm just trying to figure out how they could be a dual kit. 

 

A new Termie Lord would be amazing, but I honestly don't think I'd ever use one.

 

I think 9th has (apparently) made a lot of old Chaos staples, and new models -extremely- hard to pull off now... HQ's are so limited without penalty, and some 'new' models almost have no function now: DiscoLords (up 30 points?!) , stuff like Fabius fighting for an HQ slot, Venomcrawlers, newer CSM troops... all really in a poor spot imo. 

 

I personally think the last thing Chaos needs at all is an HQ. 

 

 

+30p sounds like a lot but when I look at my other armies it's not that out of the norm. My Ghostkeel went up 30p as well and that even though it lost the ability to fall back and shoot and mostly invalidating its second -1 hit modifier. My Redemptor Dread went up 25p. My Repulsor went up 37p. It's really difficult to judge all these point adjustments on the first glance.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Nah frater. You’re actively making the thread and the forum worse, and deliberately.

 

You’ve made your point. We get it.

Excuse me? Short of this morning I haven't posted in this thread in weeks. You've been doing far more complaining than I have. I've been biting my tounge and silently reading.

[Prot]

As long as the thread is respectful, and there's no malice, there's nothing wrong with being truthful. 

 

If it's not to your liking, it's okay to not read it. 

 

There are positives with Chaos, and those too have been mentioned. It's more of a bitter pill to swallow and we all know it. The issues we are all talking about with the faction may very well be partially resolved when an actual 9th Ed Codex comes out. 

 

This was often the case in 8th. As each codex got redone, the 'power level' seemed to go to a new level. I expect the same here.

 

I personally have come to believe GW have extremely few (if any) true Chaos playtesters. This usually leaves in an undesirable spot until our codex comes out....

 

That said we have to be honest with ourselves. The truth (for me at least) is the playstyle of 9th has changed a lot of how an army is built. Our HQ heavy builds, to improve mediocre units, has been our way for a long time. That changed at the flick of a switch.

 

As mentioned the redesign of the board/terrain also changed at the flick of a switch, and I've found that to be an instant positive for us... it's just getting functionality back on that new table.

 

For example, my point about my competitive Flawless Host Daemon Engine list: 

I used to take 3 Disco Lords. You can't now... it just doesn't work. They went up too much, die too fast (targetable) and list wise, this is too hard to do (unless you want an extremely monochromatic list with zero psychic support)

 

So now I have to figure a way around that. 

 

Units I already said (many times in fact) that I like include:

- Helbrutes. Way better, and have multi function now in my test games. Plasma Cannon is a lot more fun. 

 

- Abaddon. I love the model, he's always in my lists period. He will still stay.

 

- Heldrake. A big improvement for this guy this edition. Not an Aircraft, so he's able to contest in T1. He shoots in CC just fine thank you, and he's annoying as heck for the opponent to clear out. Last edition this guy was a giant dud.

 

- Defiler (Speculative) Is much improved. Protecting characters, moving and shooting without penalty, Blast weapon. With flamers I see him doing a decent job of causing issues. Especially in the specialist detachment.

 

- Vindicators (Speculative). Cheap-sh. T8, Blast. Protects characters, moves and shoots better.... just hard to protect from getting bogged down in chaff (can't fire blast in CC). You would have to plan for this type of build better.

 

- Terminators. In my games I usually tried to put in a squad or two, but I usually pulled them out of frustration. They are a better body guard now that we need them. They are better with Combi Plasma (assuming only unmodified 1's explode). I've enjoyed them.

 

 

My biggest personal issues are mostly based around list building (just feels difficult and awkward without penalizing you). And some units have fallen off the edge for me: large possessed squads (using small ones now), Most HQ's, and Marine Troops are dead to me now.

 

So there's some good in there, but again I'm playing 9th now. I will be tonight as well... I learn a little something each time.