9th Ed Speculation Thread

[Lord_Starscream]

I think more than any other edition, this edition is going to be the Space Marine edition, the loyalist Astartes Edition. The more I've examined what's coming out for 9th, despite some good changes (particularly involving terrain), what I see developing with the disparity of the rules announcements, is basically something that will be extremely unhealthy for the game's ecosystem.

 

Yes, we don't have all the facts yet, but we've got GW's track-record (no, I don't consider 8th to be some miracle system, there are better games out there, as games, the setting and look, sell 40k), and I kinda look at what the Necrons are getting so far in the leaks, vs. what the Astartes are getting, and I realize that the game itself, barring some really dramatic reveals, is no longer really going to have much competition for the loyalists. The Eldar seemingly will be getting a nerf (namely with the hard cap of -1 to hit), though in truth their still probably in the 'best' position to fight loyalist players even with that.

 

I see Chaos as genuinely one of the worst factions in the game. It's an old faction, with old ideas, with some daemon-engines tacked onto it. The lack of Primaris Marines for us in our big release last edition, basically is going to doom the faction to obscurity until at least 10th, though honestly I suspect it won't be addressed until 11th. On paper, I'm not seeing how melee is going to be as viable as GW is saying. I think it'll be more viable, but even then, if it turns out to be strong, they've set Primaris up now with a lot of very capable melee units, mostly superior to Chaos, or really any other factions barring perhaps Orks and Tyranids (and that's a big perhaps), and that's just on potential weight in numbers.

 

I've noticed almost every Chaos community I can think of, has withered in the last 2 years, and I expect that to continue. It definitely has a sense of finality to it, for me. Outranged, outshot, outfought, outmaneuvered, and it just doesn't see worth it to bother, and I don't expect, with the current model range, even with Obliterators getting a release (if I was GW, I'd actually SCRAP that release, honestly, and just put all my efforts into a complete range overhaul), that there is really much here for Chaos anymore. Which is really fun, as they are portrayed as the Big-Bads, but we're probably talking about 6-7 years before they are going to be a viable force on the tabletop, and that's provided only that their sales continue to decline, and GW decides that they need to actually have other armies sell than Primaris.

 

I'd say barring Eldar, I'd be discouraged from playing any non-Imperial faction at this point. Maybe Orks have some potential, but even that is really limited, seemingly, just due to the lethality of firepower you need to weather on the way in, and Orks are still too squishy for that overall.

 

And I say this as someone with 2 Primaris armies. I don't want to play them even, because I actively feel it's not fair to do so. That's really sad.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Chaos's problem isn't a lack of Primaris per se, its that 8th ed's changes destroyed the value of the classic MeQ statline. That value could be fixed though, and then we wouldn't need primaris. They nearly pulled it off for loyalists, as even their old marines are decent thanks to a bazillion special rules stacked on them. They haven't really tried that with Chaos yet. So we have to see what comes in the form of new traits+other special rules to mirror doctrines. If those are lackluster, then Chaos will be dead for another edition.

 

I certainly share the pessimism about the state of melee though. I suspect that, like in 8th, we'll have a few competitive lists, but they'll be skew lists like Daemon Engine spam. They won't be based around actually putting marines on the table.

[Lord_Starscream]

Chaos's problem isn't a lack of Primaris per se, its that 8th ed's changes destroyed the value of the classic MeQ statline. That value could be fixed though, and then we wouldn't need primaris. They nearly pulled it off for loyalists, as even their old marines are decent thanks to a bazillion special rules stacked on them. They haven't really tried that with Chaos yet. So we have to see what comes in the form of new traits+other special rules to mirror doctrines. If those are lackluster, then Chaos will be dead for another edition.

 

I certainly share the pessimism about the state of melee though. I suspect that, like in 8th, we'll have a few competitive lists, but they'll be skew lists like Daemon Engine spam. They won't be based around actually putting marines on the table.

 

 

I dunno. I actually don't think Old-Marines are viable because of the range issue. That 30 inch range -1 AP on those bolt rifles are the real killers. Armies with effective small arms fire and further range eat armies without it. Especially as transports are most certainly overcosted for what they are as well. Lack of durability + lack of range, in a high-damage based game system, is the killer.

 

I think Chaos is going to be dead until at least 10th edition, and I think they'll continue to be dead until they get Primaris'd, which basically means the range is just going to sit in limbo, and sadly, it deserves to.

[Captain Incompetence]

I see Chaos as genuinely one of the worst factions in the game. It's an old faction, with old ideas, with some daemon-engines tacked onto it. The lack of Primaris Marines for us in our big release last edition, basically is going to doom the faction to obscurity until at least 10th, though honestly I suspect it won't be addressed until 11th. 

At this point, i'm fine with CSM not having Primaris. With every new release Primaris release, I end up feeling a mixture of annoyance towards GW and sadness for people who actively collect them. Oh look, another Primaris unit with this weapon that's blatantly better than the old one. Also, it's pretty cheap and has some tacky build-in rule that allows it to outperform similar units. Great...

 

I just sort of ended up ignore Primaris armies for the most part (which is quite sad really), but I just never have fun playing against them. Even if I go up against a Xenos or other Imperial armies I might get curbstomped, but atleast I'll have fun instead of 1 - 3 hours of just removing my models from the table. So I don't think the issue is not having Primaris or that the CSM codex is absolutely atrocious. Sure, it can definitely use some redesign here and there, but if we get a codex that's equally as powerful as our loyalist counterpart, I'd probably get more pissed off at Games Workshop. We don't need more armies that just blow the opponent away from the table. If anything, 40K could use with some restraint on the damage output of models.

[Lord_Starscream]

 

I see Chaos as genuinely one of the worst factions in the game. It's an old faction, with old ideas, with some daemon-engines tacked onto it. The lack of Primaris Marines for us in our big release last edition, basically is going to doom the faction to obscurity until at least 10th, though honestly I suspect it won't be addressed until 11th. 

At this point, i'm fine with CSM not having Primaris. With every new release Primaris release, I end up feeling a mixture of annoyance towards GW and sadness for people who actively collect them. Oh look, another Primaris unit with this weapon that's blatantly better than the old one. Also, it's pretty cheap and has some tacky build-in rule that allows it to outperform similar units. Great...

 

I just sort of ended up ignore Primaris armies for the most part (which is quite sad really), but I just never have fun playing against them. Even if I go up against a Xenos or other Imperial armies I might get curbstomped, but atleast I'll have fun instead of 1 - 3 hours of just removing my models from the table. So I don't think the issue is not having Primaris or that the CSM codex is absolutely atrocious. Sure, it can definitely use some redesign here and there, but if we get a codex that's equally as powerful as our loyalist counterpart, I'd probably get more pissed off at Games Workshop. We don't need more armies that just blow the opponent away from the table. If anything, 40K could use with some restraint on the damage output of models.

 

 

 

Oh sure. I don't even disagree in terms of codex power, or people just wiping one another out, but look at the rules the Primaris are getting. Tis a meme, lol. Everyone else will get 'restrained' books, trust me. I've got a significant lack of faith in the rules department after the 9th edition leaks. 

[Gree]

I wonder if Astartes Chainswords are going to be given to every Marine faction, like Bolter Discipline was. That would be an improvement for many Chaos units.

 

Although I suspect that the new chainswords will be Primaris-only.

[Kain Mor]

They won’t be primaris only, the team have said over and over again that all Astartes will get it.

 

That being said, I wouldn’t be surprised if they only gave it to loyalists.

[Panzer]

Chaos's problem isn't a lack of Primaris per se, its that 8th ed's changes destroyed the value of the classic MeQ statline. 

 

To be fair, the value of the MEQ statline got destroyed a long time before 8th already. Even in 7th they died about as quickly as GEQ thanks to Grav (and Plasma if Grav would ever get a nerf) and weapons with high volume of shots and high strength (most famously T'au with tons of S7 shots) without having the numbers advantage of GEQ.

[techsoldaten]

Although I more or less posted this in the Fabius topic, I think this might be a better spot to discuss the overall problem.

 

I've had the chance to try some 9th ed games, but haven't tried Chaos (with our currently understood rule set from 9th.)

 

I just can't get the HQ slot nailed. I have mentioned HQ's are basically what GW's been feeding us to 'fix' things, and obviously have a really decent profit margin on a blister. But I'm looking at my normal staples:

 

Abaddon, Daemon Prince, Sorc, Termie Sorc, Dark Apostle, Exalted Champ, Disco Lord, Master of Possession and now Fabius. All of this could be any legion you want (except Abaddon).

 

Even though that's quite a spread, literally I very often used: Abe, Sorc,DA,MoPs, and very often 3 Disco's!

 

Every list I make is very hard to function without those valuable HQ's, so I'm trying to imagine 40K with Abe + Sorc + Mop (or DA). It feels impossible right now, and 3 Disco's is looking too cost prohibitive.

I think you see the big problem with CSM for 9th edition.

 

The Supreme Command Detachment has changed. Now it's just one LOW or Superheavy. There's no detachment where you can just load up on HQs anymore.

 

This invalidates my Daemon Primarch list. There's no longer any way to take Magnus, Mortarion, 4 Ksons Sorcerers, and a Nurgle Detachment in a Battleforged army.

 

CSM has a lot of powerful HQs who make mediocre troops better. Going forward, they're going to play less of a role, and we will have to get by without some of the auras and abilities we are used to just to preserve CP.

[Prot]

Well we don't know what a "Supreme Commander" unit might be, but yes I agree this is looking very grim.

 

I had a game with my Black Legion last night. I cheated by pretending I could take Bile, and a MoP in my Battalion, and I put Abe, Sorc, Apostle in the Supreme command. 

 

That worked okay, but still another problem crept up: keeping them alive. I had a lot of infantry. Even if this list was legal.... Tau are going to be very strong I think.

 

I think assault got a boost in the arm from the table size, and while my experimental games were on the smaller table, they did not have all the nuances of 9th  and that was hard.

 

Stuff that really threw me:

 

- Multi Charge changes. It doesn't seem like much on paper, but the removal of what I call the Hail Mary Charge... Try to tie up what ever you can with a squad. As we know, a fail to reach one charge target, means a fail to all targets. (this even made me realize the stealth nerf this could be to 'fight twice' units. 

 

- Can't go through walls anymore.

 

-  Must be 1/2" within a friendly model that is within an 1" of an engaged model. (Harder to get that large squad in the fight)

 

- New Coherency rules with squads over 6 models. Crazy hard. Much worse for trying to assault than I thought. Since you look after morale and start peeling models, you have to think ahead and realize if you lose 1 or 2 models (from morale or otherwise) this could put you in an illegal position, causing a lot more casualties if you're not careful. I have to be honest, the 'can't move through walls' and coherency were really made this possessed unit extremely difficult to use on a table with decent terrain. Every movement had to end with a realization that in order to use Possessed properly with Aura's in place, that this was going to be very awkward.

 

- Once you're done charging, the opponent gets first activation. That's something I haven't heard mentioned much.

 

- Psykers don't have the casting flexibility they used to.

 

- This is a weird one, because I didn't think it would be that big a factor.... I had a fly unit in my list, purely because I foresaw the advantage of tying up Tau Fly units early. In most games I can't kill muti Riptides (drone spam).  Usually I go for board control, and scoring. I took my fly unit (BaleDrake in this case) and managed to lock in a Riptide... (the overwatch really is still tremendous and felt like a game turn in itself). In the Tau player's turn I was surprised to see that with ease he blew up the Heldrake. Analyzing the situation, I have to wonder if it's actually worse than 8th edition to do this.... in the past my Tau opponent would have to leave CC and although shooting normal, he would have to leave to shoot. Sometimes Tau are so boxed in with drones, or screens, they can't move and if they can the -1 to hit might be the difference. Here he didn't have to move, and easily got to destroy me. I'd say the trade off is: 1 He has to pretty much target my unit with everything (to be sure) and 2 - He can't marker light me.

 

I left thinking Tau are going to be very good still. And my Possessed are just a little too finicky and difficult to run. A larger squad of "elite" infantry might be just too cumbersome to run in 9th. I've been trying different armies in every game of 9th I've played, and this was by far the toughest to get to work right. (Between the lack of HQ's which is Chaos' main thing. And the new assault/terrain rules.)

 

Just my 2 cents so far.

 

I felt by the end of our game that Tau are in a great place once they adjust for the secondaries. I had an easier time of secondaries because of board control. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

Hmmm ...

So prot you think 9th will be MSU-central judging by what I am hearing? 

 

That new Coherency is sounding quite punishing! 

[techsoldaten]

Well we don't know what a "Supreme Commander" unit might be, but yes I agree this is looking very grim.

Detachment specifies it can be a Daemon Primarch. So that's part of the equation.

 

I had a game with my Black Legion last night. I cheated by pretending I could take Bile, and a MoP in my Battalion, and I put Abe, Sorc, Apostle in the Supreme command. 

 

That worked okay, but still another problem crept up: keeping them alive. I had a lot of infantry. Even if this list was legal.... Tau are going to be very strong I think.

 

I think assault got a boost in the arm from the table size, and while my experimental games were on the smaller table, they did not have all the nuances of 9th  and that was hard.

You're very fortunate. I haven't been able to play a game since February.

 

Not that I'm in any hurry to get a head start on 9th. For right now, I just want to start thinking about lists. I'm trying not to pay too much attention to rules changes, that's just going to make it harder.

 

Stuff that really threw me:

 

- Multi Charge changes. It doesn't seem like much on paper, but the removal of what I call the Hail Mary Charge... Try to tie up what ever you can with a squad. As we know, a fail to reach one charge target, means a fail to all targets. (this even made me realize the stealth nerf this could be to 'fight twice' units. 

 

- Can't go through walls anymore.

 

-  Must be 1/2" within a friendly model that is within an 1" of an engaged model. (Harder to get that large squad in the fight)

 

- New Coherency rules with squads over 6 models. Crazy hard. Much worse for trying to assault than I thought. Since you look after morale and start peeling models, you have to think ahead and realize if you lose 1 or 2 models (from morale or otherwise) this could put you in an illegal position, causing a lot more casualties if you're not careful. I have to be honest, the 'can't move through walls' and coherency were really made this possessed unit extremely difficult to use on a table with decent terrain. Every movement had to end with a realization that in order to use Possessed properly with Aura's in place, that this was going to be very awkward.

 

- Once you're done charging, the opponent gets first activation. That's something I haven't heard mentioned much.

 

That's a lot to chew through, and it's going to have a big impact on CSM armies.

 

First off, I thought you could go through walls up to 1" in height. Don't really understand the cover mechanic yet, but that would be important.

 

Second, the morale tests are going to lead to MSU armies. You're just not going to want to risk big losses over position. CSM are a mid-range army that rely on units that chew through melee, knowing you have that additional risk factor is going to mean smaller units. And yeah, we also rely on those auras - this is going to screw things up for a lot of armies.

 

Third, the activation order - are you sure of that? I hadn't heard it either, guess I should read the rules.

 

The multicharge thing has to be the worst of it. People are going to be much more conservative on the charge. The one upside is the new rules on Overwatch, less of a downside to missing the charge.

 

- Psykers don't have the casting flexibility they used to.

 

- This is a weird one, because I didn't think it would be that big a factor.... I had a fly unit in my list, purely because I foresaw the advantage of tying up Tau Fly units early. In most games I can't kill muti Riptides (drone spam).  Usually I go for board control, and scoring. I took my fly unit (BaleDrake in this case) and managed to lock in a Riptide... (the overwatch really is still tremendous and felt like a game turn in itself). In the Tau player's turn I was surprised to see that with ease he blew up the Heldrake. Analyzing the situation, I have to wonder if it's actually worse than 8th edition to do this.... in the past my Tau opponent would have to leave CC and although shooting normal, he would have to leave to shoot. Sometimes Tau are so boxed in with drones, or screens, they can't move and if they can the -1 to hit might be the difference. Here he didn't have to move, and easily got to destroy me. I'd say the trade off is: 1 He has to pretty much target my unit with everything (to be sure) and 2 - He can't marker light me.

 

I left thinking Tau are going to be very good still. And my Possessed are just a little too finicky and difficult to run. A larger squad of "elite" infantry might be just too cumbersome to run in 9th. I've been trying different armies in every game of 9th I've played, and this was by far the toughest to get to work right. (Between the lack of HQ's which is Chaos' main thing. And the new assault/terrain rules.)

 

Just my 2 cents so far.

 

I felt by the end of our game that Tau are in a great place once they adjust for the secondaries. I had an easier time of secondaries because of board control. 

 

Interesting about the Heldrake. I have 3 and might have an aerial wing in some games.

 

I think people will work out ways to make Possessed work again. There are too many armies built around them.

 

But this is going to be a hard edition for CSM. Probably the first time I was not looking forward to new rules.

 

[Prot]

The terrain (as I read it) states we can't go through walls anymore. This means trickle charges through windows and doorways. Really made a massive difference. The 1/2" engagement of secondary models (primary assaulters still get 1") seems to be worse for smaller bases that used to be able to cram a ton of little 25 mil bases in, but it still was a factor for me.

 

The bigger explanation of why I dislike the new coherency is pretty long, but the short of it is that it feels incredibly difficult to assault, use aura's, and not risk massive losses by incorrectly removing models, and then dealing with Morale. This might take some time.

 

The Heldrake was easily my 'most improved' unit. It went from dud to stud because of the change to fly, and even being a tougher model in tanks that will be -1 is huge. And he can get there in a hurry.

 

 

Hmmm ...

So prot you think 9th will be MSU-central judging by what I am hearing? 

 

That new Coherency is sounding quite punishing! 

 

Yea, I had to absorb a lot of info.... in a short period of time. I mean even Disembarking out of a Rhino is harder! (another mini assault nerf). Getting into a Rhino... can't be engaged, but you can definitely advance, or retreat and get in.

 

The new coherency... I may have got some of it wrong, but it's really worrisome to me with large, expensive squads like Possessed. 

 

And yes, as others have been saying, I think your MSU feels best so far. My Custodes are far easiler to move, but have far more Character protection issues... and board control issues.

 

With Chaos Rhino's and even Helbrutes got better. No one like shooting at an empty Rhino (or a Helbrute for that matter). But I've been finding them both to be good character protectors, and you know what else? The Helbrute with a simple Multimelta moving and shooting like normal up the board protected some Sorcs, AND put 6 Damage into a Stormsurge! 

 

And that is probably a first for me in 40K history!!! A fist + weapon of Choice "Cheap-o-Brute" is very attractive to me.

 

Secondly there MIGHT be more room for Termies now:

 

Here's my short take on why:

1. Character protection (minimum 5 man squads though. The more the better)

2. Plasma Changes: Only unmodified 1's blow.

3. Rumoured Point increases on loyalist units SEEM to indicate a very minor point hike on traditional units like Termies.

 

Sorry for the long posts, just trying to pass on as much info I can to you guys with (keep in mind) only about 4 games into 9th edition.

[Cheex]

I managed to play a test game on Friday. I played my World Eaters against a regular opponent's GSC, using the Four Pillars mission that was previewed on WarCom a few weeks ago. I chose Assassination (+3VP for each enemy character killed), Thin Their Ranks (+1VP for every 10 models killed) and Siphon Power (mission-specific) as my secondaries. I don't recall what my opponent took, other than Engage on All Fronts (bonus VP for holding table quarters).

 

The GSC got a good lead on VPs since they were able to spread out and capture objectives, but they weren't able to sustain it and we ended with a solid victory for the World Eaters.

 

A few thoughts:

• Melee units will have to be very careful with who they declare charges against. You not only have to roll high enough to reach all of the targets; you also have to actually move your charging models to engage those targets. This is super tough on units that can fight twice: you can no longer declare against two targets, focus on one and then pile in and attack the second. Need to be very careful about screens.
   
• The restricted range for attacking, combined with the new coherency rules, made charges more difficult to maximise.
   
• On the plus side, characters that use Heroic Intervention to pile into your charging units are now valid targets, even if you didn't declare charges against them.
   
• Another plus is the reduction on Overwatch. Didn't affect our game much, but did speed things up by removing a lot of ineffective dice rolling.
   
• We had a ton of 5" tall ruins on our table, but found there were still enough avenues to be able to see a lot of the board. This has a lot of potential to help melee armies do their thing; I had a few times where I could position a squad directly behind a ruin in preparation for a charge the next turn with little risk of being shot at, forcing my opponent to make a hasty retreat.
   
• Speaking of hasty retreats, the smaller board size meant that I could encircle the bulk of my opponent's force much more effectively. There was less space for them to worm (wurm?) their way out of my assaults, and less space for them to fall back to a second line. From the first turn, I was able to position Rhinos (behind Obscuring terrain, mind you) in places where I could influence most of the board.
   
• Always bring a couple of cheap objective grabbers. I like Prot's suggestion of Helbrutes and Rhinos as character protectors, but they also double as emergency objective holders.
   
• I'm not used to playing ITC or Nova missions, so the amount of bookkeeping for missions this time around was a bit of a shock to me. Bring a notepad to every game!

 

The terrain (as I read it) states we can't go through walls anymore. This means trickle charges through windows and doorways. Really made a massive difference. The 1/2" engagement of secondary models (primary assaulters still get 1") seems to be worse for smaller bases that used to be able to cram a ton of little 25 mil bases in, but it still was a factor for me.

 

Ruins have the Breachable trait, which means that INFANTRY, BEASTS and SWARMS can move through the walls without impediment.

[Doom Herald]

Am I understanding the new rules right that a Helldrake and Raptors cannot attack an aircraft?

 

Edit: or, do the new rules technically allow any unit to charge aircraft?

 

I can't find any rules regarding aircraft in the charge phase and the aircraft sub-section seems to only talk about engagement range in regards to everything but charging.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Doom Herald

[BrainFireBob]

With 9th kinda-sorta landing, what are everyone's winners and losers?

 

9th seems to be a mobile firebase edition.

 

For myself, I'm thinking Havocs (especially strategic reserve chaincannons), and maybe brutes walking with a Warpsmith. Cultists, due to coherency, probably on the shelf.

 

Also noodling on whether cheap min-size max gun raptors might make a comeback.

[Lord_Starscream]

If I'm going to be 100% honest, the biggest losers of all are:

 

Chaos Space Marines.

 

Outside of a few tricks like possessed-bombs, or monster-mashes, I think the faction is cooked. It's one reason why you've seen a steep decline in every Chaos community I know across the board.

 

Outfought, outshot, and outranged. Delivery mechanisms are tenious at best to get meagre troops into battle. Eighth was already a bad place for CSM, but 9th is going to continue that tradition, especially with Primaris now getting dedicated, superior assault units that will cut the nuts off any CSM with a blade and too many balls.

 

I am not attempting to be hyperbolic when I say, Chaos is vying for the worst faction in 8th, and is again vying for worst faction in 9th. It's really sad, but it's just the way things are.

 

The biggest losers in this edition? Havocs (I don't think they were good previous edition either, tbh, T5 isn't all that important and they were a fixed squad with 1W each. A squad of x10 Primaris would hose down the whole squad in one volley of bolterfire almost. Very fragile), Chaos Space Marines, Cultists definitely.  Really, any unit that's not a Daemon Engine or some Characters.

 

Yea, it's a giant poop-shoot. Welcome to the bottom, it'll be a long climb to get close to back up, and I doubt the 9th edition codex will do CSM any favours unless its paired with a Chaos Primaris release. 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Losers:

• Large units due to blast (despite morale changes)
• Melee units due to coherency, fallback, and vehicles shooting in melee (despite less overwatch)
• Character heavy lists
• Psykers (but not by that much)
• Transports (were before, didn't get meaningful changes)

Winners:

• Vehicles due to shooting heavy weapons without penalty and shoot in melee.
• Hybrid vehicles/monsters with melee and ranged, as they can now advance while firing.
• Big units that don't want to start on the board.

Units with multiple of the Loser categories are really hosed, such as large melee cultist or CSM squads. The biggest winner units by far are Daemon Engines, and second biggest are probably Helbrutes and Contemptors.

[Lord_Starscream]

Losers:

• Large units due to blast (despite morale changes)
• Melee units due to coherency, fallback, and vehicles shooting in melee (despite less overwatch)
• Character heavy lists
• Psykers (but not by that much)
• Transports (were before, didn't get meaningful changes)

Winners:

• Vehicles due to shooting heavy weapons without penalty and shoot in melee.
• Hybrid vehicles/monsters with melee and ranged, as they can now advance while firing.
• Big units that don't want to start on the board.

Units with multiple of the Loser categories are really hosed, such as large melee cultist or CSM squads. The biggest winner units by far are Daemon Engines, and second biggest are probably Helbrutes and Contemptors.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOFCQ2bfmHw

 

As I was saying. All that comes out of this is the Monster Mash, and I don't think Chaos is going to be particularly unique at doing that. Tyranids, Daemons of Chaos, Knights and to a lesser extent Orks can do the same. XD

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

Losers:

• Large units due to blast (despite morale changes)
• Melee units due to coherency, fallback, and vehicles shooting in melee (despite less overwatch)
• Character heavy lists
• Psykers (but not by that much)
• Transports (were before, didn't get meaningful changes)

Winners:

• Vehicles due to shooting heavy weapons without penalty and shoot in melee.
• Hybrid vehicles/monsters with melee and ranged, as they can now advance while firing.
• Big units that don't want to start on the board.

Units with multiple of the Loser categories are really hosed, such as large melee cultist or CSM squads. The biggest winner units by far are Daemon Engines, and second biggest are probably Helbrutes and Contemptors.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOFCQ2bfmHw

 

As I was saying. All that comes out of this is the Monster Mash, and I don't think Chaos is going to be particularly unique at doing that. Tyranids, Daemons of Chaos, Knights and to a lesser extent Orks can do the same. XD

 

 

Yup. Unless we see a total overhaul of traits, and then get our version of what Loyalists got in their latest codex, its looking really bad. And even then, it may not be enough without a new statline. I doubt we'll get a Primaris line as we just got a big update to the core CSM range. I'm amazed they are leaving those models so weak. No way that isn't hurting their sales.,

Edited July 6, 2020 by Drudge Dreadnought

[Lord_Starscream]

 

 

Losers:

• Large units due to blast (despite morale changes)
• Melee units due to coherency, fallback, and vehicles shooting in melee (despite less overwatch)
• Character heavy lists
• Psykers (but not by that much)
• Transports (were before, didn't get meaningful changes)

Winners:

• Vehicles due to shooting heavy weapons without penalty and shoot in melee.
• Hybrid vehicles/monsters with melee and ranged, as they can now advance while firing.
• Big units that don't want to start on the board.

Units with multiple of the Loser categories are really hosed, such as large melee cultist or CSM squads. The biggest winner units by far are Daemon Engines, and second biggest are probably Helbrutes and Contemptors.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOFCQ2bfmHw

 

As I was saying. All that comes out of this is the Monster Mash, and I don't think Chaos is going to be particularly unique at doing that. Tyranids, Daemons of Chaos, Knights and to a lesser extent Orks can do the same. XD

 

 

Yup. Unless we see a total overhaul of traits, and then get our version of what Loyalists got in their latest codex, its looking really bad. And even then, it may not be enough without a new statline. I doubt we'll get a Primaris line as we just got a big update to the core CSM range. I'm amazed they are leaving those models so weak. No way that isn't hurting their sales.,

 

 

Much as with TV shows due to streaming services, it's hard to get ratings. But you can kind of see what's popular based off buzz on social media and other community platforms. If a streaming show has a lot of chatter about it, excitement, a lot of buzz on media platforms (twitter, facebook, reddit, forums, ect), that means its healthy, doing well, and probably has a real viewship.

 

Chaos (especially Chaos) at the moment, across all major social media platforms, and across the smaller communities like forums and such, is basically extinct at this point. I have to imagine Chaos has imploded for sales, and I doubt they're going to give them Primaris until 10th or 11th edition, so they can expect Chaos to continue to basically flounder. And it should flounder, because it's awful right now.

[Excessus]

I'm positive I read that chargers go first in assaults...

[Excessus]

We have survived worse. Besides, the CA isn't leaked yet and the released rules seems like an incomplete document.

[Doom Herald]

I was playing NL in 8th and I managed to do pretty well locally. That said, it feels like 9th has truly gutted everything that made my army work.

 

My DP was using One Piece at a Time with Miasma of Pestilence to be at -2 to be hit in melee with the ability to fall back and charge so he could chain cripple infantry. It maxes at -1 to be hit now. If I fall back and charge with him, theres a global strat to do mortal wounds on a falling back unit.

 

My Jump Lord was using the Fist of Decay with the + to hit strats and prescience to have higher DttFE odds and could kill an Imperial Knight from deepstrike with average rolls. That's gone now.

 

My other Jump Lord was using the Flayer relic which was a great utility melee weapon. He broke infantry, heavy infantry/small monsters, and characters pretty effectively. The change to morale makes that relic worthless now.

 

The only thing I was using that I feel good about in this is my Venomcrawlers. I feel like I'm being forced into using them and Disco Lords right now.

[MasterDeath]

1. The new Vehicle rules are pretty good for chaos. But Vehicles cant use cover anymore and have problems with terrain.

2. The new morale rules are also pretty good, as we have quiet some utility here

3. Our core choices will suffer, they are even worse than before

4. Summoning got improved, as it allows us to soup without paying a second detachement. Just add cheap characters.

5. I have to play some games before I can comment about cohesion etc.

6. Mass infantry got weaker because of blast, but stronger because of morale. Also "cut them down" is quiet handy for big cultist blobs. And everything that shoots a cultist is not shooting something important.

7. Also cheap infantry allows the "action" secondary goals to be used more efficient.

8. MSU got a bit weaker, because of Morale and character screening. They are not a reliable screen anymore.

9. Flyers cant be spammed because of detachement layouts

10. Character spam is harder because of detachement layouts

 

I see a lot of "up and down" here. You want cheap Infantry for secondaries and screens, but they are vulnerable to blast. You want MSU for point efficiency, but they are bad at screening characters. You want Vehicles because of general buffs, but terrain is can hinder them. You want characters, but need a suitable screen.

 

In the end, chaos will lose out. We always do.