Will 3k point games become the new norm?

[Fajita Fan]

I remember GK power armor in 3rd edition being 25 points and Terminators 47 before upgrades so I’d be happy to see points continue to creep up so that model count needed for a game continues to fall.

[Vanger]

Tournament play will use Strike Force as a major complaint was that games take too long. "Triming the fat" will make tha tpossible.

But if I have an afternoon to waste on a single game, sure as hell, I will play Onslaught!

[Umbros]

I really don't think it will. I suspect this will kill of the awkward 1750/1850 standards, though. 

[Ishagu]

I can jump to 3k immediately with all of my armies, but I think the games will take too long.

 

The 2k games will resemble games of 1750 - 1850 in 8th I believe. I think this is an ITC inspired measure to go back to the 1850 size of games we had in 7th to speed up the game.

 

There is one benefit to this - we will need less models to build 2k armies.

[DuskRaider]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unlikely people will suddenly start playing 3k. The points so far seem to be somewhat similar to early 8th and people didn't suddenly start playing 3k then either.

They literally mention 3,000 point games in the new write up...

So? Playing bigger games is not a new option, you know? The current rules also mention 3000p games. People still didn't bother playing bigger games as default.

Unlike the current system, 9th gives an incentive to play 3K (max CP). So... yeah, people probably will play 3K games.

More points means more detachments means more CP already. Still no.

I guess we'll see, but there's been talk about it more. I hope people do, larger games are so much better.

[Dark Shepherd]

Auspex Tactics made a good point of its easier adjust some/most units down as 9th evolves/progresses as they did with 9th as people generally love their units to drop and nobody likes increases

 

So its easier and more palatable for EVERYONES points to go up at the start

[MARK0SIAN]

Don’t forget, we know there’s a specific size of game where GW intend their points to balance armies most effectively. Some armies are much stronger than others at 1k but the idea is that by the time they both hit 2k the points have reached the level at which they’ll be most balanced.

 

If GW have intended that sweet spot to be 2k then going above to 3k risks further imbalance amongst the factions.

 

I know they’ve come up with new missions for each level of game etc but there’ll still be a size of game at which 40K is the most balanced and it seems they’ve gone for 2K for that size.

[Panzer]

Also don't forget that with 9th they design missions for specific point sizes and I have no doubt that the majority will be for 2k points which automatically makes people gravitate towards it anyway.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

3k in 9th would be at best 2.5k in 8th

Cant see zee influential tournament scene or stores with timeslots for games adopting it

This is not limited to tournament players who represent a small portion of the total player base.

 

 

 

Having played 30k I found there is inherently more balance as the points go up.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Klod]

Never cared what the 'norm' is. How much time me and my friends have is always the deciding factor.

[ThePenitentOne]

Don’t forget, we know there’s a specific size of game where GW intend their points to balance armies most effectively. Some armies are much stronger than others at 1k but the idea is that by the time they both hit 2k the points have reached the level at which they’ll be most balanced.

 

If GW have intended that sweet spot to be 2k then going above to 3k risks further imbalance amongst the factions.

 

I know they’ve come up with new missions for each level of game etc but there’ll still be a size of game at which 40K is the most balanced and it seems they’ve gone for 2K for that size.

 

Don’t forget, we know there’s a specific size of game where GW intend their points to balance armies most effectively. Some armies are much stronger than others at 1k but the idea is that by the time they both hit 2k the points have reached the level at which they’ll be most balanced.

 

If GW have intended that sweet spot to be 2k then going above to 3k risks further imbalance amongst the factions.

 

I know they’ve come up with new missions for each level of game etc but there’ll still be a size of game at which 40K is the most balanced and it seems they’ve gone for 2K for that size.

In execution, you're probably right, but that's not the intent. I can't count the number of times since Saturday I have heard one or another GW operative say, "We really wanted to design a core system that works for all sizes of game." Heck, it was so big a deal that when they reduced the entire new edition to 9 key points, games of all sizes still made the list. Clearly that is their INTENT.

 

We'll see how they do on execution; I believe that the game probably will end up balancing best at a particular value, but I believe GW when they say that is not their intent.

 

Personally, I think they are doing this as the first part of a KT/ Apocalypse fade out. They aren't going to invalidate KT and Apocalypse, they'll just gradually withdraw support as small scale and large scale 40k become more popular. I'm indifferent about that; I like those games, but it is a smoother transition, and hence better for escalation, if those games can all be played with the same rules.

 

I feel nervous though, because there are a huge number of people who like the alternate activation style of play used in Kill Team and Apocalypse. These folks often post that 40k should change. I do not agree, and so far I've been able to say, "Look, you can already play Alternate activation if you want to, so leave our game alone."

 

If they allow KT and Apocalypse to die, they've eliminated an Everyone Wins scenario that they've spent the better part of 4 years putting together.

[ThePenitentOne]

I'm escalation and all in on Crusade.

 

I take it even farther than GW though- one of my armies is starting as 5 basic wyches; another is starting as 2-6 purestrains, as determined randomly based on a custom Spacehulk Scenario.

 

At the top end, I'll probably have to house rule 4k games.

 

My style of play, however, is not very typical of overall trends.

[Beta galactosidase]

Black Blow Fly, don’t you mean that you expect the new standard game will be 2001 points? Maybe 2100? You said people will want to do Onslaught just for the maximum command points. 2001 points gets you Onslaught.

 

18cp / 2001 points is actually bigger than 18cp / 3000 points

[Ultramarine vet]

Okay, so this is not enough to assume a lot of other units will go up in points. Sure, some will. But the intercessors going up in points has a lot to do with the fact that they were too cheap for what they could do. Especially when compared to tactical squads. That point increase just means that tactical squads, assuming they don't go up, get more relevance on the tabletop. That's all I'm getting from this

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Black Blow Fly, don’t you mean that you expect the new standard game will be 2001 points? Maybe 2100? You said people will want to do Onslaught just for the maximum command points. 2001 points gets you Onslaught.

 

18cp / 2001 points is actually bigger than 18cp / 3000 points

I meant 3k so people can scale up their armies accordingly. I think most if not every unit will see an increase in points. They are not increasing the points of Intercessors because they are too good at 17 points each.

[Dark Shepherd]

@BBW I meant what 3k in 9th edition points would be in equivalent points in 8th

 

Am not judging which is the ultimate format or points size

[War Angel]

Are we going to be able to play larger games? I’m currently playing 4k every week.

[Silas7]

@Title

 

God i hope not.

[Roland Durendal]

I can jump to 3k immediately with all of my armies, but I think the games will take too long.

The 2k games will resemble games of 1750 - 1850 in 8th I believe. I think this is an ITC inspired measure to go back to the 1850 size of games we had in 7th to speed up the game.

There is one benefit to this - we will need less models to build 2k armies.

It is. Reece and Frankie on their podcast last week literally said this. Model count in armies will go down bc they want to return to the days of 5th (and a bit in 6th/7th) where a game took ~2hrs max and you could do a full 4-round tourney in 1 day.

 

Matter of fact, everything they alluded to in that podcast is coming to light....the return of mechanized armies aka 5th ed “Rhino Rush” being a thing, potentially faster games due to lower model count. I’ll call it now based off what they said and observations as things are released: in a lot of ways 9th will look and feel like 5th. Which is a good thing.

 

I mean off the top of my head:

- free transports in a BN detachment for troops = rhino rush return

- benefits for running a mono-build/pure list (via the BN detachment) = old 5th FOC (well almost. 5th was 1HQ/2TRP min)

- increased points across the board mean fewer models

- in line with above, fewer models = faster games

- and in line with above = more expensive models means a return to 2K as base tournament play...like 5th. Which is just me reiterating what Ishagu said :)

 

All in all this makes me excited for 40K again.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Free transports as in zero points ?

 

I remember playing 5th edition - some games still took a long time to play - especially versus IG leaf blower armies, their shooting phase seemed to take forever... and remember that’s when there was templates which really added a lot time to game length.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[MegaVolt87]

I welcome a return to lower model count, as long as games become more even on who wins. Nothing worse than having to have more models to play from behind like currently.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Maybe at first there will be more even between factions but as new codices are released (with special rules to break the general rules) a meta will develop like it always does.

[Roland Durendal]

Free transports as in zero points ?

 

I remember playing 5th edition - some games still took a long time to play - especially versus IG leaf blower armies, their shooting phase seemed to take forever... and remember that’s when there was templates which really added a lot time to game length.

BBF: maybe not “free” that was just my initial gut interpretation. And ahhhh yes the good old leaf blower. Haven’t seen or heard of one of those in a loooonnng time. I think though with no more templates and the reintroduction of “blast” type weapons (and how they do auto max hits as opposed to d* ) that will speed things up, especially things like the old leafblower

 

For reference, here’s the BN Detachment image where I interpreted “free transports” from:

 

 

Edit: couldn’t figure out how to upload the image

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GeeDub said on twitch stream today onslaught should take around 4 hours to play... so not good for tourney play .