Can terminators make a comeback?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

HEADER This is not a discussion intended how to make terminators great again with pages of wishlisting that’ll never happen.

 

So it’s look like this could be an anti horde edition possibly and the way detachments are going to work it looks like you don’t necessarily have to take troops nor need to depending on what you want to do with your army. I’m thinking it’s possible terminators could be competitive again.

[Cruor Vault]

I'd love for them to be good again as well!

 

I think the board size shrinking will be a benefit to them and other similarly ranged units.  Getting more CP out of a single Battalion should also enable more points to be spent on things like Terminators, and result in more CP for using stratagems like 'Fury of the First'.

 

If common terrain pieces can give benefits beyond +1 to armor saves they might make a comeback.

[MegaVolt87]

I'd love for them to be good again as well!

 

I think the board size shrinking will be a benefit to them and other similarly ranged units.  Getting more CP out of a single Battalion should also enable more points to be spent on things like Terminators, and result in more CP for using stratagems like 'Fury of the First'.

 

If common terrain pieces can give benefits beyond +1 to armor saves they might make a comeback.

 

Yeah I am cautiously optimistic about termi's making a return. If the DS rules change at all to get closer is 6' instead of 9', slightly better chance to get to melee, combi melta use etc.  Surely DS rules will change with the smaler board size..... 

[Dracos]

Assume worst case scenario and they get a 20% increase for everything, then the “standard” build for a fire support or assault unit is going to be 220-225 more toward the high end. Assume you go Battalion with Scouts that’s another 198 points. If you go Terminator Captain, Chaplain, and Librarian that’s another 352. So we have a tax of 550 leaving us with 1450 to dump into Terminators.

If you’re careful you just might get 6 Terminator squads and a cheaper Dreadnought. That’s not bad. Depending on which Squads you take, I would try for two assault 4 shooting probably sgts with thunder hammers. Looks fun but I’ll take a pass on the 6” reserve rule. It’s not even funny as a joke.

Competitively I don’t think it has enough bodies to last through 4 turns and score enough secondaries to be a real threat. That’s assuming the 20% increase across the board of course. Maybe Termies get a pass this time


Regardless of what’s said so far about Troops. I think the nature of a Match Play game scoring system means Marines need 6 Troop choices to basically hold the line (ObSec) through the game while everything else tries to push the scrum. Yeah played Rugby in college. Great game. Those are my current thoughts so far, subject to change with new information.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Dracos

[Ultramarine vet]

I think terminators can make a pretty good comeback. I think they are okay at the moment, and I love TH/SM assault terminators, even if they are expensive. I like the 3++

 

The shrinking of the table and the detachment freedom in 9th, might indeed make them a bit more viable. Time will tell!

[War Angel]

Assume worst case scenario and they get a 20% increase for everything, then the “standard” build for a fire support or assault unit is going to be 220-225 more toward the high end. Assume you go Battalion with Scouts that’s another 198 points. If you go Terminator Captain, Chaplain, and Librarian that’s another 352. So we have a tax of 550 leaving us with 1450 to dump into Terminators.

 

If you’re careful you just might get 6 Terminator squads and a cheaper Dreadnought. That’s not bad. Depending on which Squads you take, I would try for two assault 4 shooting probably sgts with thunder hammers. Looks fun but I’ll take a pass on the 6” reserve rule. It’s not even funny as a joke.

 

Competitively I don’t think it has enough bodies to last through 4 turns and score enough secondaries to be a real threat. That’s assuming the 20% increase across the board of course. Maybe Termies get a pass this time

 

 

Regardless of what’s said so far about Troops. I think the nature of a Match Play game scoring system means Marines need 6 Troop choices to basically hold the line (ObSec) through the game while everything else tries to push the scrum. Yeah played Rugby in college. Great game. Those are my current thoughts so far, subject to change with new information.

Why would you take the scouts though? You don’t need to take a battalion anymore.

 

edit: that’s in regards to your suggested list. Extra terminators would make you more Killy and increase your survivability though not needing to take as many hits. Could still kill the enemy to get the job done?

 

But, I’m not sure the changes to the game will bring back terminators in mass. Just not a big fan of str4 ap0. Good against hordes sure, but those seem to be getting nerfed, so the desired target is going away.

Edited June 8, 2020 by War Angel

[Gorgoff]

I guess we'll see not far in the future the Primaris version of terminators and they will be so good that everyone will need them to have.

And after that point they'll get rid of the small astartes.

[Hymnblade]

If they're less overcosted in 9e, I think they definitely could. If hammernators still cost just 1pt less than assault centurions for a vastly inferior profile, maybe not. Edited June 8, 2020 by Hymnblade

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I'm hoping the Indomitus pattern keeps the teleport homer jump move and that the missions make it so that this is powerful enough for them to be viable. Being able to deep strike, do your job, then warp away the survivor(s) to the opposite corner of the map whenever you want to capture an objective seems like it should be stronger than it is.

[GrinNfool]

Obviously without more information on any further changes other than the CP adjustments its hard to be too accurate prediction wise.  My honest opinion though is terminators (in a vacuum) aren't far from being good this edition, they struggle a little due to being 2-3 ppm over costed, and the necessity of at least one preferably two battalions.  This means that its hard to afford to bring them as you have to spend points on troops for the CP or your army won't function.  Troops role also tends to overlap with part of the terms role, killing infantry via SBs.

 

Terms struggle more due to lack of points to spend on them than they do their stats.  Why spend 200-1k points on something for no cp right?  In that regard CP being static does improve the measure of terms immediately.  The question becomes the inverse, do I want to spend 500-800 points on troops, or just bring the units I wanted.  Now as to whether terms are going to get used after that will depend on points hike, and what the meta becomes.  That is anyone's guess at the moment because all armies are being given the same question, are the troops needed? If so how many?  Would I rather spend those points on my harder hitting units?  If it becomes very common to forgo troops and bring bigger harder hitting things that will likely not be great for terms.

 

New edition could change so much its hard to give a good evaluation, at present, but the potential for them is there.  As I said before they weren't miles off from good in 8th, just a few adjustments would have made them reasonable, so with all the changes of a new edition its certainly possible.

Edited June 8, 2020 by GrinNfool

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Cataprachii terminators are good. They have a 4++ and stormbolter as which is a solid mix... Blight Lords have the same armor and have featured in some competitive lists, although their melee weapons for the most part only inflict single damage while ours can all take power fists or chainfists, which is significantly better.   

[TheNewman]

Assume worst case scenario and they get a 20% increase for everything...

We've seen the preview at this point, Intercessors are only going up 18% and Cultists are going up 50%. That means GW has at least some sort of strategy for increasing points more involved than just "lets add 20% to create some more wiggle-room and adjust from there", that's not a scenario we need to worry about.

 

The problem with Terminators post-Codex-2.0 has really just been one of finding the right price point. They're not like Reivers that have fundamental design problems. In 9th a lot is going to depend on the new reserve deployment rules, but in 8th if five Termies were roughly the same as three Aggressors then you'd see Terminators instead of Aggressors in armies without any strat/warlord trait/doctine shenanigans for delivering the Aggressors.

 

I'd go so far as to speculate that the reserve rule changes are at least partially aimed at making it possible to properly balance units with native Deepstrike, because assigning a point cost for Terminators that makes sense for both Imperial Fist and White Scars absolutely cannot be done when WS can Reserve Deploy whatever units they want and IF cannot.

[Beta galactosidase]

There are other options for s4 shooting.

 

They shouldn’t be very effected if close combat becomes strong. There aren’t enough turns for a unit that does shooting and close combat but moves slowly

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Terminators can be a solid fire base armed with Storm Bolters since they always get Bolter Discipline .

[Medjugorje]

HEADER This is not a discussion intended how to make terminators great again with pages of wishlisting that’ll never happen.

 

So it’s look like this could be an anti horde edition possibly and the way detachments are going to work it looks like you don’t necessarily have to take troops nor need to depending on what you want to do with your army. I’m thinking it’s possible terminators could be competitive again.

If there is an big model edition. All weapons which are be played in the meta must be good against them so Terminators are in a bad (very bad) position I think.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What’s not good about chainfists and thunder hammers ?

[Dracos]

Just addressing some thoughts

 

A) I would want a battle forged battalion to get the CP back. I also would want scouts to box out areas midboard to give the terminators room to deep strike into. I might actually forego the Dreadnought for more scouts and add missile launchers for this list if I’m gave it real thought. I had a 3rd/4th? Edition set up I used like this at one time. In a RT it didn’t perform that well either. Big monsters and tanks were the thing then so there’s that.

 

B) I know everything isn’t going to double but I did say worse case scenario. Regardless I’d bet 20% across the board on average is close for Astartes. We can hope for better but the podcast I’m hearing are making similar assumptions on point jump.

[Captain Idaho]

Obscuring Terrain will be very good for Terminator squads. Dropping in close doesn't have to result in the entire enemy force targeting your squad, merely a portion of it.

 

I'm itching to see how the unit fares on the table. If terrain blocks well enough we might even see Land Raiders coming back. Fingers crossed.

[Medjugorje]

What’s not good about chainfists and thunder hammers ?

the price

[tychobi]

I do not think we will see a resurgence in terminator viability. 2+ armor is a bear to balance and there is no way they are going to let a truemarine unit overshadow newer releases. Evolution is unkind.

[Ultramarine vet]

I do not think we will see a resurgence in terminator viability. 2+ armor is a bear to balance and there is no way they are going to let a truemarine unit overshadow newer releases. Evolution is unkind.

Terminators have always been an iconic unit in space marines. I doubt they will be ignored or made obsolete. But, time will truly tell.

[tychobi]

 

I do not think we will see a resurgence in terminator viability. 2+ armor is a bear to balance and there is no way they are going to let a truemarine unit overshadow newer releases. Evolution is unkind.

Terminators have always been an iconic unit in space marines. I doubt they will be ignored or made obsolete. But, time will truly tell.

You did not play much 8th I take it? They are obsolete as we speak, kinda the point of the thread.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

What’s not good about chainfists and thunder hammers ?

the price

 

In for a penny, in for a pound.

[Ultramarine vet]

 

 

I do not think we will see a resurgence in terminator viability. 2+ armor is a bear to balance and there is no way they are going to let a truemarine unit overshadow newer releases. Evolution is unkind.

Terminators have always been an iconic unit in space marines. I doubt they will be ignored or made obsolete. But, time will truly tell.

You did not play much 8th I take it? They are obsolete as we speak, kinda the point of the thread.

I have played a lot of 8th, thank you very much. I didn't say they are great in 8th edition, I said they will likely not be ignored or made obsolete any time in the near future. Which points to the prediction that they will see some better days ahead. I myself find them okay, not obsolete even now. But, you shall have your own opinion and I'll have mine.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

In 8th they are good for chapters that don’t have CT or strats to put them into reserves.