Can terminators make a comeback?

[Volt]

 

I think they (GW) dont care how you get your 4++. If the captain has no Iron halo he would have a 4++ because of the shield. You dont have to write down every single rule which would have the same efffect.

funny how complicated it seems for some people

 

 

It's for consistency. If they ever put the relic shield on a model that has no iron halo or other 4++, it won't have an invulnerable save. It may be redundant on this one model because it already has an iron halo, but it's important to be consistent and build good rules foundations for the future. And no, the Captain would not have a 4++ without his iron halo because his shield doesn't provide an invulnerable save. You can't just assume it does when it's not written there, that's literally how rules work: they only do what they have written down.

 

Makes me wonder what'll happen to the Cataphractii Captain. If he still gets a 3++, it'll actually make him unique.

[War Angel]

 

Your high as a kite if you think this is how it’s meant to be. By your same logic, you never apply the positive modifier because it’s not in the rules.

And the rule for storm shield is written on the character sheet, in the past that has meant different models have different benefits from the equipment.

 

It's literally a thing in Age of Sigmar however, so this could end up being the intention. People were asking if a functional 2++ was the intention of the rules for the Stegadon (iirc that model, might be another), and GW clarified that yes, it is the intention for the unit to have a functional 2++.

Yeah you have to teach me the entire rule set of AOS before I even care about what some model may or may not do in a different game. 40 doesn’t need invincible units like that.

[Volt]

 

 

Your high as a kite if you think this is how it’s meant to be. By your same logic, you never apply the positive modifier because it’s not in the rules.

And the rule for storm shield is written on the character sheet, in the past that has meant different models have different benefits from the equipment.

It's literally a thing in Age of Sigmar however, so this could end up being the intention. People were asking if a functional 2++ was the intention of the rules for the Stegadon (iirc that model, might be another), and GW clarified that yes, it is the intention for the unit to have a functional 2++.

Yeah you have to teach me the entire rule set of AOS before I even care about what some model may or may not do in a different game. 40 doesn’t need invincible units like that.

 

Doesn't need is irrelevant. The point is that GW has already made models that are a 2++ before and this could be coming to 40k, similar to how other AOS mechanics have come to 40k, such as morale. Also a 2++ is not invincible. 1's always fail so a roll of 1 still fails if you have a 1+ that negates all ap.

[War Angel]

 

 

 

Your high as a kite if you think this is how it’s meant to be. By your same logic, you never apply the positive modifier because it’s not in the rules.

And the rule for storm shield is written on the character sheet, in the past that has meant different models have different benefits from the equipment.

 

It's literally a thing in Age of Sigmar however, so this could end up being the intention. People were asking if a functional 2++ was the intention of the rules for the Stegadon (iirc that model, might be another), and GW clarified that yes, it is the intention for the unit to have a functional 2++.

Yeah you have to teach me the entire rule set of AOS before I even care about what some model may or may not do in a different game. 40 doesn’t need invincible units like that.

Doesn't need is irrelevant. The point is that GW has already made models that are a 2++ before and this could be coming to 40k, similar to how other AOS mechanics have come to 40k, such as morale. Also a 2++ is not invincible. 1's always fail so a roll of 1 still fails if you have a 1+ that negates all ap.

Sorry I wasn’t clear on this, when I said you’ll need to teach me the entire rule set, I mean that I don’t know that game, and thus don’t trust you, or at least don’t think that terminators compare to the name you provided.

 

See, terminators might be awesome and have some super sweet shields and armor and force fields, but it sounds like the model your comparing them to is a giant dinosaur, and the guys trying to get past its armored skin are throwing sticks with sharpened stones at them.

 

Pretty sure a moderator said to stop talking about it though.

 

As far as only failing on unmodified roles of 1, despite the weapon being a giant tank killing cannon or not, yeah I’d say that’s pretty invincible. Not literally, but you’ll note I didn’t use that word.

[Volt]

 

 

 

 

Your high as a kite if you think this is how it’s meant to be. By your same logic, you never apply the positive modifier because it’s not in the rules.

And the rule for storm shield is written on the character sheet, in the past that has meant different models have different benefits from the equipment.

It's literally a thing in Age of Sigmar however, so this could end up being the intention. People were asking if a functional 2++ was the intention of the rules for the Stegadon (iirc that model, might be another), and GW clarified that yes, it is the intention for the unit to have a functional 2++.

Yeah you have to teach me the entire rule set of AOS before I even care about what some model may or may not do in a different game. 40 doesn’t need invincible units like that.

Doesn't need is irrelevant. The point is that GW has already made models that are a 2++ before and this could be coming to 40k, similar to how other AOS mechanics have come to 40k, such as morale. Also a 2++ is not invincible. 1's always fail so a roll of 1 still fails if you have a 1+ that negates all ap.

Sorry I wasn’t clear on this, when I said you’ll need to teach me the entire rule set, I mean that I don’t know that game, and thus don’t trust you, or at least don’t think that terminators compare to the name you provided.

 

See, terminators might be awesome and have some super sweet shields and armor and force fields, but it sounds like the model your comparing them to is a giant dinosaur, and the guys trying to get past its armored skin are throwing sticks with sharpened stones at them.

 

Pretty sure a moderator said to stop talking about it though.

 

As far as only failing on unmodified roles of 1, despite the weapon being a giant tank killing cannon or not, yeah I’d say that’s pretty invincible. Not literally, but you’ll note I didn’t use that word.

 

It's actually not that good because a 2++ in of itself only succeeds about 83% of the time iirc, thus being still vulnerable to mass S4 or S5 shots. And model comparison doesn't matter, the point is that something that exists in another game GW pulls mechanics from will probably see implementation in 40k's future. Age of Sigmar in many ways is useful to pay attention to because it's more receptive to experimentation, while 40k is more rigid. So stuff coming in the future might be tested in the waters of AOS first.

[War Angel]

Again, I don’t trust you, or care. 40k has primarchs, giving his abilities to entire squads in AOS would be bad, because it’s still a different game. Giving massive dinosaur god powers to a squad that you can put 30 of into a list in 40k would be bad.

 

We can talk about it more when the FAQ comes out.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Eighth edition’s was built on AoS with bolt-ons like invulnerable saves.

[Volt]

Again, I don’t trust you, or care. 40k has primarchs, giving his abilities to entire squads in AOS would be bad, because it’s still a different game. Giving massive dinosaur god powers to a squad that you can put 30 of into a list in 40k would be bad.

 

We can talk about it more when the FAQ comes out.

...Yes and those abilities started in AOS first. I don't get why you think something being a Primarch or a Serf matters because the abilities Primarchs have are reflected in common units form Age of Sigmar. You not trusting isn't a matter because many mechanics are literally ported from AOS, regardless of your feelings on the matter. I also have no idea why you are acting so hostile over a something that's just a fact that one game just takes rules from the other. Where do you think 8th edition morale came from? Armor Penetration? Move distances? Re-do of toughness, and weapon/ballistic skill?

[jaxom]

Until the save situation is resolved (one way or another) it's not useful to talk about it.

 

Let's talk the Combat Phase. Heroic Intervention is a Charge Move and after all units who charged have fought then the play who's turn it isn't gets to choose a unit to fight. What can we do regarding terminator characters and terminators as counter-charge and blocking units?

[Volt]

Until the save situation is resolved (one way or another) it's not useful to talk about it.

 

Let's talk the Combat Phase. Heroic Intervention is a Charge Move and after all units who charged have fought then the play who's turn it isn't gets to choose a unit to fight. What can we do regarding terminator characters and terminators as counter-charge and blocking units?

Make sure only 1 or 2 enemies is in range of the hero by following the half inch rule in combat engagement. Thus only 1-2 enemy models can actually attack the HQ, while the HQ's wounds bleed into the entire unit by how wound allocation works.

[War Angel]

I’m not acting hostile, I’m telling you I won’t believe you because I don’t know AOS rules, and I won’t blindly believe things without proof. I also have no desire to continue this conversation that a moderator said to drop, but you keep quoting me and pulling me back into it.

 

I’m baffled by your inability to understand that how rank operates in AOS is not how individuals in a squad should operate. I don’t know how else to explain this.

 

Off topic, what exactly do you think the definition of hostile is?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I sure hope this thread doesn’t get locked due to a silly argument.

[Dracos]

I do't know about the rest of you but I personally think Goonhammer is a really solid site with very good contributors. Games-workshop sent them advance copy of the Launch Set and this is what one of  them had to say on the subject ...

 

 

 

RagnarokAngel: Yes, we know reader, you’re very clever for figuring out that Terminators now have a 1+/2++ save. Good job, we’ll see you in 3 weeks on launch day for how that ends up going for you.

Considering they have the Big Book at their disposal I would say this is a veiled reference (since leaking rules without permission would get them cut off) to the fact that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"

 

 

What does your common sense tell you is going to happen? Mine says chill, we'll all know in a few days ;)

[Alcyon]

OTT, please be polite to each other. Come on, we're all nerds here.

 

OT, if you trust the leaks, terminators are one of the very few units who didn't get a points hike in 9th Ed (ok, Storm Bolters cost 1 more point.) To me this is the single biggest thing improving competitiveness. They should certainly have t5 and 2w but I've given up hope on those. I would guess Tartaros and Cataphractii are playable generally now with this change.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m over here chilling like lil Willy. :D

 

The play testers on Tabletop Titans said 2++ is not going to be a thing. Think about it... one monster is one thing, Grey Knights and Deathwing are another thing altogether.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

I think the change to stormshields is a net gain, overall.

 

Things with SS typically die to small arms fire. Now they are stronger against that.

[Volt]

OTT, please be polite to each other. Come on, we're all nerds here.

 

OT, if you trust the leaks, terminators are one of the very few units who didn't get a points hike in 9th Ed (ok, Storm Bolters cost 1 more point.) To me this is the single biggest thing improving competitiveness. They should certainly have t5 and 2w but I've given up hope on those. I would guess Tartaros and Cataphractii are playable generally now with this change.

Statistically what would actually help Terminators most is either having a 2+ armor save re-rolling failed saves, or reverting to the 3+ on 2d6 than Toughness 5. Fraters actually hashed this out via spreadsheet in another thread.

 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/645776724214284297/709961304768643194/2Qo2Xlpm.png

Edited July 4, 2020 by Volt

[jaxom]

How would supposed new storm shield interact with Sallies chapter tactic?

[Alcyon]

 

 

OTT, please be polite to each other. Come on, we're all nerds here.

 

OT, if you trust the leaks, terminators are one of the very few units who didn't get a points hike in 9th Ed (ok, Storm Bolters cost 1 more point.) To me this is the single biggest thing improving competitiveness. They should certainly have t5 and 2w but I've given up hope on those. I would guess Tartaros and Cataphractii are playable generally now with this change.

Statistically what would actually help Terminators most is either having a 2+ armor save re-rolling failed saves, or reverting to the 3+ on 2d6 than Toughness 5. Fraters actually hashed this out via spreadsheet in another thread.

 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/645776724214284297/709961304768643194/2Qo2Xlpm.png

Oh I don’t doubt it - I just think t5 makes thematic sense. That’s really cool though, thanks for sharing the link!

[leth]

I think terminators need 3 wounds to survive the 2 wounds weapons and put them more in line with primaris. I think that terminators like in Deathwatch, which have a lot of variety in choices are going to gain significantly from the changes that we have seen, other terminators? Not so much. 
 

I think a lot of the ranged weapons are a bit expensive and I hope to see if they do something good for lightning claws. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by leth

[Hymnblade]

How would supposed new storm shield interact with Sallies chapter tactic?

I don't see why they would interact at all. A model with a storm shield will have a 2+ save, and if shot by a weapon with AP 1, will still have a 2+ save.

 

Salamander terminators can already ignore ap1, so that benefit of a storm shield won't matter to them.

 

I think terminators need 3 wounds to survive the 2 wounds weapons and put them more in line with primaris.

I've said this before, but if all Terminators had access to the GK strat "Redoubtable Defence" (-1 damage), it would help a lot. There's nothing GK-specific about the stratagem; even the flavour text just says "Terminators stand firm against torrents of enemy fire."

[Acebaur]

Play nice people, there is no reason to be so combative. 

 

With regards to the so called 2++ on TDA with SS, I know for a fact that GW is already aware and it will be corrected. There is no need to discuss it further. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Acebaur

[Captain Idaho]

Moving on, the question of whether plasma will be the usual death of Terminators, Storm Shields or not, will likely be a matter of points.

 

I'm actually more worried about Grav Cannons. The leaks shows their points as 10, with a Devastator squad with 4 of them being 115pts.

 

That is going to be the new hotness I fear and terminal for Terminators.

 

I expect a points increase.

[jaxom]

It could be a game of chicken: can you put wait the devastators before bringing in the terminators?

[Brother Kraskor]

It could be a game of chicken: can you put wait the devastators before bringing in the terminators?

 

Aha yes real nerve-wracking reinforcements.