Can terminators make a comeback?

[CCE1981]

 

Note that until we see the FAQ or Errata that tells us otherwise the Codex Storm Shields are still only 3++.

 

However, if it is changed. Terminators with Storm Shields will have a 1+ save since the SAVE CHARACTERISTIC is improved by one. AP modifies the die roll, if you get a result less than one it becomes one. So if you get hit with plasma weapon at AP -3, you save that on 2+, ones always fail per rules, since 2 - 3 = -1 which becomes 1, therefore you made a 1+ save.

You uh...are doing AP wrong

 

1+ save modified by AP3 makes it 4+ save (makes it worse not better)

 

Roll 1 2 or 3 and fail (8th edition storm shield would be better with 3++)

AP modifies the roll then compares that roll to the save - pg 18 Section 4. Saving Throw.

Edited July 3, 2020 by CCE1981

[TiguriusX]

 

 

Note that until we see the FAQ or Errata that tells us otherwise the Codex Storm Shields are still only 3++.

 

However, if it is changed. Terminators with Storm Shields will have a 1+ save since the SAVE CHARACTERISTIC is improved by one. AP modifies the die roll, if you get a result less than one it becomes one. So if you get hit with plasma weapon at AP -3, you save that on 2+, ones always fail per rules, since 2 - 3 = -1 which becomes 1, therefore you made a 1+ save.

You uh...are doing AP wrong

 

1+ save modified by AP3 makes it 4+ save (makes it worse not better)

 

Roll 1 2 or 3 and fail (8th edition storm shield would be better with 3++)

AP modifies the roll then compares that roll to the save - pg 18 Section 4. Saving Throw.

 

***

4. SAVING THROW

The player commanding the target unit then makes one saving

throw by rolling one D6 and modifying the roll by the Armour

Penetration (AP) characteristic of the weapon that the attack

was made with. For example, if the weapon has an AP of -1, then

1 is subtracted from the saving throw roll. If the result is equal

to, or greater than, the Save (Sv) characteristic of the model the

attack was allocated to, then the saving throw is successful and

the attack sequence ends. If the result is less than the model’s Save

characteristic, then the saving throw fails and the model suffers

damage. An unmodified roll of 1 always fails.

***

Terminator with shield has 1+ save

 

Hit by plasma with AP3

 

You roll 1 auto fail

You roll a 2...AP makes it -1 you failed (less than 1)

You roll a 3...AP makes it 0 you failed (less than 1)

 

I'm not finding your rule that negative AP "becomes 1"

[CCE1981]

 

 

 

Note that until we see the FAQ or Errata that tells us otherwise the Codex Storm Shields are still only 3++.

 

However, if it is changed. Terminators with Storm Shields will have a 1+ save since the SAVE CHARACTERISTIC is improved by one. AP modifies the die roll, if you get a result less than one it becomes one. So if you get hit with plasma weapon at AP -3, you save that on 2+, ones always fail per rules, since 2 - 3 = -1 which becomes 1, therefore you made a 1+ save.

You uh...are doing AP wrong

 

1+ save modified by AP3 makes it 4+ save (makes it worse not better)

 

Roll 1 2 or 3 and fail (8th edition storm shield would be better with 3++)

AP modifies the roll then compares that roll to the save - pg 18 Section 4. Saving Throw.

***

4. SAVING THROW

The player commanding the target unit then makes one saving

throw by rolling one D6 and modifying the roll by the Armour

Penetration (AP) characteristic of the weapon that the attack

was made with. For example, if the weapon has an AP of -1, then

1 is subtracted from the saving throw roll. If the result is equal

to, or greater than, the Save (Sv) characteristic of the model the

attack was allocated to, then the saving throw is successful and

the attack sequence ends. If the result is less than the model’s Save

characteristic, then the saving throw fails and the model suffers

damage. An unmodified roll of 1 always fails.

***

Terminator with shield has 1+ save

 

Hit by plasma with AP3

 

You roll 1 auto fail

You roll a 2...AP makes it -1 you failed (less than 1)

You roll a 3...AP makes it 0 you failed (less than 1)

 

I'm not finding your rule that negative AP "becomes 1"

Pg 5 - Dice - second paragraph - last sentence.

 

All modifiers (if any) to a dice roll are cumulative; you must apply all division modifiers before applying all multiplication modifiers, and before applying all addition and then all subtraction modifiers. Round any fractions up after applying all modifiers. A dice roll can be modified above its maximum possible value (for example, a D6 roll can be modified above 6) but it can never be modified below

1. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

Edited July 3, 2020 by CCE1981

[TiguriusX]

 

 

 

 

Note that until we see the FAQ or Errata that tells us otherwise the Codex Storm Shields are still only 3++.

 

However, if it is changed. Terminators with Storm Shields will have a 1+ save since the SAVE CHARACTERISTIC is improved by one. AP modifies the die roll, if you get a result less than one it becomes one. So if you get hit with plasma weapon at AP -3, you save that on 2+, ones always fail per rules, since 2 - 3 = -1 which becomes 1, therefore you made a 1+ save.

You uh...are doing AP wrong

 

1+ save modified by AP3 makes it 4+ save (makes it worse not better)

 

Roll 1 2 or 3 and fail (8th edition storm shield would be better with 3++)

AP modifies the roll then compares that roll to the save - pg 18 Section 4. Saving Throw.

***

4. SAVING THROW

The player commanding the target unit then makes one saving

throw by rolling one D6 and modifying the roll by the Armour

Penetration (AP) characteristic of the weapon that the attack

was made with. For example, if the weapon has an AP of -1, then

1 is subtracted from the saving throw roll. If the result is equal

to, or greater than, the Save (Sv) characteristic of the model the

attack was allocated to, then the saving throw is successful and

the attack sequence ends. If the result is less than the model’s Save

characteristic, then the saving throw fails and the model suffers

damage. An unmodified roll of 1 always fails.

***

Terminator with shield has 1+ save

 

Hit by plasma with AP3

 

You roll 1 auto fail

You roll a 2...AP makes it -1 you failed (less than 1)

You roll a 3...AP makes it 0 you failed (less than 1)

 

I'm not finding your rule that negative AP "becomes 1"

Pg 5 - Dice - second paragraph

Gotcha

 

***

. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice roll would be less

than 1, count that result as a 1

***

 

Someone failed quality check for armor saves

 

I agree with your rule interpretation

 

All the negative AP RAW becomes 1 and the armor with shield is 1+

 

Day 1 FAQ needed

[CCE1981]

Supposedly this is the way it is in AoS. So it might not be Erratad.

[TiguriusX]

Supposedly this is the way it is in AoS. So it might not be Erratad.

That is some ridiculous rule interaction

 

Creates a functional 2++ armor save

 

Even a vindicare assassin cant punch through RAW

[CCE1981]

The new Primaris Captain is going to be sick. That Relic Shield gives the increase to his armor save as well. Give him Artificer Armor or Armor Indominus and he gets that 1+ armor save as well as a 4+++. With 6 wounds!!! Add in The Imperium’s Sword with his Master-Crafted Power Sword plus a Supplement trait and you have a power house.

 

Salamaders - +2 Str or Toughness

White Scars - d3 attacks

Imperial Fists - Indomitable or Stubborn Heroism

Ravenguard - Swift and Deadly or Shadowmaster

 

Irohands and Ultramarines would have the worst out of those, but that is a good melee commander for your front line.

[Dracos]

 . . .  applying all addition and then all subtraction modifiers.

 

SAVE CHARACTERISTIC is improved by one. AP modifies the die roll

thus, applying the addition the Terminator has a +1 save

 

Plasma AP -3  pops Terminator who now needs 4,5,6 on the roll to save

 

 

anything else looks like rules lawyering/purposeful misinterpretation to me

[CCE1981]

. . . applying all addition and then all subtraction modifiers.

 

SAVE CHARACTERISTIC is improved by one. AP modifies the die roll

thus, applying the addition the Terminator has a +1 save

 

Plasma AP -3 pops Terminator who now needs 4,5,6 on the roll to save

 

 

anything else looks like rules lawyering/purposeful misinterpretation to me

It’s not rules lawyering the Storm Shield confers an improvement to the Armor Characteristic by 1. So a 2+ armor save goes to a 1+ armor save. - Storm shield from the leak: https://m.imgur.com/Zc9wU0R

 

If the die roll would be modified below 1 it becomes 1. - second paragraph of the “Dice” section of page 5.

 

AP modifies the the die roll, and then compared to the saving throw. - pg 18 “Saving Throw”.

 

There is no rules lawyering, and the language is very clear. 9th seems to be written to actually embrace RAW means fewer interpretation mismatches.

 

Edit: Then a roll of 1 always fails. - pg 18 “Saving Throw”.

Edited July 3, 2020 by CCE1981

[Hymnblade]

 anything else looks like rules lawyering/purposeful misinterpretation to me

On the one hand, I'm sympathetic to this, and I do expect it to get FAQed. On the other hand, GW has come down clearly on the side of "nope, it really does work that way!" in the past, such as in the Codex: Drukhari FAQ:

 

Q: If a Succubus is given the Serpentin combat drug, does its Weapon Skill characteristic increase to 1+? If so, does the Succubus still hit if a hit roll of 2 is rolled for an attack for a melee weapon and, due to an ability, I have to subtract 1 from that hit roll? A: Yes, and yes – only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail.

 

So, a 1+ WS really does mean you're immune to modifiers. I doubt the same will be allowed to stand for a 1+ save simply because that's so powerful, but at least right now, it's unambiguously the officially correct interpretation of the rule.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Hymnblade

[Medjugorje]

I really dont get it. Maybe because english is not my mother tongue. Can somebody explainit  exactly in form of a example?

[Hymnblade]

Your THSS terminator gets shot with AP3 plasma. You roll your save, it's a 2.

 

AP modifies that to 2-3 = -1. But rolls can't be modified below 1, so instead your roll is considered to be an unmodified 2, modified 1.

 

Since your save is 1+, that's not a failure. UNMODIFIED 1s always fail, but there is no such rule for modified 1s.

[Medjugorje]

okay okay. Now I get it. 

[Waking Dreamer]

So just think, if it is RAW, will THSS Terminators with functionally a 2++ save become the 9Ed Centurions?

 

Who would be okay with this?

 

Can an iconic, firstborn unit shine heads and shoulders above Primaris equivalents even with all of their new and shiny toys?

 

THSS Terminator : "Give me that. This is how you use a stormshield...!"

 

Or is an Errata on it's way? lol

[CCE1981]

The thing is we haven’t seen the points value of Storm Shields yet. If they are expensive on top of Thunderhammers it could be absolutely fine.

 

Most of the issue is cost-benefit if you spend let’s say 500 points for a 10-man squad that does the job simultaneously as 3x 5-man squads for 600 pts they’re a steal.

[MegaVolt87]

So just think, if it is RAW, will THSS Terminators with functionally a 2++ save become the 9Ed Centurions?

 

Who would be okay with this?

 

Can an iconic, firstborn unit shine heads and shoulders above Primaris equivalents even with all of their new and shiny toys?

 

THSS Terminator : "Give me that. This is how you use a stormshield...!"

 

Or is an Errata on it's way? lol

 

Remember when centurians were pointed so harshly no one took them? Could happen here as well, good but too many points. 

[War Angel]

Holy hell no, your misrepresenting the very quotes your posting.

 

2, -3ap = a 5+ armor save. Add one for the shield and you need a 4.

You can even do this in reverse

2, add one for the shield = 1+, -3ap = a 4 up save

 

A terminator with stormshield in cover has a 0 up save. modified 1’s always fail. Just because your roll is modified doesn’t mean that rolling a 1 is now safe “because it’s modified”. it’s still a fail because “unmodified 1’s” happen regardless of if you then modify or not.

 

 

Nothing about this should need to get faqed, you act like cover doesn't currently exist with terminators.

 

 

Your quote shows that the succubus is Immune to ONE modifier, not all of them.

[AenarIT]

So just think, if it is RAW, will THSS Terminators with functionally a 2++ save become the 9Ed Centurions?

 

Who would be okay with this?

 

Can an iconic, firstborn unit shine heads and shoulders above Primaris equivalents even with all of their new and shiny toys?

 

THSS Terminator : "Give me that. This is how you use a stormshield...!"

 

Or is an Errata on it's way? lol

Errata on the way according to some playtesters, that rule interaction is an oversight apparently.

Same thing goes for casting smite multiple times with the same psyker.

[Kallas]

Holy hell no, your misrepresenting the very quotes your posting.

 

2, -3ap = a 5+ armor save. Add one for the shield and you need a 4.

You can even do this in reverse

2, add one for the shield = 1+, -3ap = a 4 up save

 

A terminator with stormshield in cover has a 0 up save. modified 1’s always fail. Just because your roll is modified doesn’t mean that rolling a 1 is now safe “because it’s modified”. it’s still a fail because “unmodified 1’s” happen regardless of if you then modify or not.

Actually, you're misinterpreting.

 

The leaked Storm Shield applies a modifier to the SAVE CHARACTERISTIC; AP applies a modifier to the DICE ROLL.

 

A modified roll of 1 against a Save Characteristic of 1+ (eg, a Terminator with Storm Shield) will result in a successful save.

 

It's odd and doesn't make sense, but it is RAW.

[jaxom]

It’s clearly a path/process error - the ubiquitous process overrides the actual process so updates are given to the former. Applying AP to the save characteristic usually yields the same result as the actual rule, but is more in line with how people play it; so much so it’s what is used in combination with a new rule.

 

Edit: non-game example, path through grass along a shorter route right next to longer stone pathway.

Edited July 3, 2020 by jaxom

[War Angel]

 

Holy hell no, your misrepresenting the very quotes your posting.

2, -3ap = a 5+ armor save. Add one for the shield and you need a 4.

You can even do this in reverse

2, add one for the shield = 1+, -3ap = a 4 up save

A terminator with stormshield in cover has a 0 up save. modified 1’s always fail. Just because your roll is modified doesn’t mean that rolling a 1 is now safe “because it’s modified”. it’s still a fail because “unmodified 1’s” happen regardless of if you then modify or not.

Actually, you're misinterpreting.

The leaked Storm Shield applies a modifier to the SAVE CHARACTERISTIC; AP applies a modifier to the DICE ROLL.

A modified roll of 1 against a Save Characteristic of 1+ (eg, a Terminator with Storm Shield) will result in a successful save.

It's odd and doesn't make sense, but it is RAW.

Actually, your misinterpreting.

the rules as written state that after you roll the dice you apply the negative modifiers, then if it’s above the save throw it’s a pass, bellow it’s a fail, and you pull the model.

 

The positive modifier needs to either be applied to the models stat line, and before the dice is rolled, or it’s not applied ever. Take your pick. AP weapons have an effect in the game though, so try telling the TO that I’m wrong, make sure to record his reaction.

[War Angel]

 

 

Incase your a visual learner.

[Brother Kraskor]

Brothers, I am all for rage and fury but let's direct it at the traitors and xenos, and let GW have the final word when the time comes!

[Hymnblade]

That image says unmodified 1s always fail, not that modified 1s always fail.

[War Angel]

That image says unmodified 1s always fail, not that modified 1s always fail.

 

That image says apply negitive modifiers, not positive ones.