Thoughts on Prepping for 9e

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

So Shrikes ability is somewhat redundant now and the similar Relic.

 

On the upside it means he no longer has to charge first and can give every Fly unit the charge rerolls

Ok wow. I'm slow on the light bulb. It's not just redundant, but useless. Shrike's ability doesn't exist for all purposes. The mechanics cancel any effect it might have. No one is spending CP to shoot at a character that can't be shot. There is no point having an ability if it ignored by the game mechanics. Argh. Another example of taking all things good Raven Guard, splitting them in half and giving them away for free.

 

Breathe Dracos breathe

Well if you take him as the warlord he can still get that multi charge off without fear same as before, the opponent just gets to save the cp for later.

 

But otherwise it's a niche ability now.

 

Same thing happened to Flesh teasers and the Angel's Wing items in codex Blood Angels + Blood of Baal.

 

But the purpose of it is to force the opponent to not be able to overwatch with a unit they would otherwise want to use.

 

No overwatch isn't a new concept so I think everyone will adjust accordingly and just screen up more.

 

As far as getting into Raven Guard, I've always fancied them, but limited resources and transfers kept me away from them until now. And I absolutely love Rogue inspired space marines. I'll eventually start up a blog foe them soon!

 

Regard to 40k easy button army, I don't think that at all. I think RG are a very good and strong army, and piloted correctly will see you win more than lose! ^5s for that.

 

I also play both ways, competively and casual/narrative and I mostly focus on the later, but I have also been playing for a good while. Haha.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Also major perks to ignoring the look out sir rule with stratagems and famed eliminators.

[superwill]

Also major perks to ignoring the look out sir rule with stratagems and famed eliminators.

Actually I think it's kind of the opposite right? Sniping is better in 8th than it will be in 9th, because now if you can clear units within 3" of a character then you can shoot them. So characters are harder to screen (no more random scout squad in a building 15" away or putting the character at the back meaning it's the last thing to get shot) and snipers are less necessary.

 

So yeah, another RG specialty which is less useful than it used to be. Hadn't thought of that one yet

Edited June 19, 2020 by superwill

[Cryptix]

 

 

Also major perks to ignoring the look out sir rule with stratagems and famed eliminators.

Actually I think it's kind of the opposite right? Sniping is better in 8th than it will be in 9th, because now if you can clear units within 3" of a character then you can shoot them. So characters are harder to screen (no more random scout squad in a building 15" away or putting the character at the back meaning it's the last thing to get shot) and snipers are less necessary.

 

So yeah, another RG specialty which is less useful than it used to be. Hadn't thought of that one yet

Not really, since our doctrine bonus gets benefits for attacking characters anyway, easier to expose characters mean that we can bring everything to bear against them instead of just snipers and melee.

[superwill]

 

 

Also major perks to ignoring the look out sir rule with stratagems and famed eliminators.

Actually I think it's kind of the opposite right? Sniping is better in 8th than it will be in 9th, because now if you can clear units within 3" of a character then you can shoot them. So characters are harder to screen (no more random scout squad in a building 15" away or putting the character at the back meaning it's the last thing to get shot) and snipers are less necessary.

 

So yeah, another RG specialty which is less useful than it used to be. Hadn't thought of that one yet

Not really, since our doctrine bonus gets benefits for attacking characters anyway, easier to expose characters mean that we can bring everything to bear against them instead of just snipers and melee.

 

Yeah but we were talking specifically in regards to those famed eliminators and other things that ignore character protection - those particular units/abilities just went down in value not up. Those particular sniper-type units aren't helped by the change from 8th to 9th, if anything they're maybe less required. Unless I'm missing something.

[duz_]

Players will adapt to the changes and won't leave characters flapping in the breeze like they do now

 

Snipers will still have a place

Either way our Tactical Doctrine is still a great boost to Eliminators whether or not they are they are ignoring character targeting rules

[Dracos]

 

Also major perks to ignoring the look out sir rule with stratagems and famed eliminators.

Actually I think it's kind of the opposite right? Sniping is better in 8th than it will be in 9th, because now if you can clear units within 3" of a character then you can shoot them. So characters are harder to screen (no more random scout squad in a building 15" away or putting the character at the back meaning it's the last thing to get shot) and snipers are less necessary.

 

So yeah, another RG specialty which is less useful than it used to be. Hadn't thought of that one yet

 

 

Your both right. :) Maneuvering your characters will require more thought, and therefore open up more opportunities when casual players make a mistake ... in which case, at least the first time I'll point out the potentially bad positioning and let them decide from there. In a competitive setting not sure I'll be so lenient. Because yeah RG is getting not so much nerfed but definitely watered down. Good players won't make that mistake (often) therefore Eliminators and other tricks are still awesome. Better in some ways as *prediction for 9e* the meta will shift away from Lone Wolf unit killers (with less than 9 wounds) and depend more on those buffing characters 

[thewarriorhunter]

Today's article on strategic reserves take a little wind out of our sails: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/24/master-your-strategygw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-2/

 

 

 

Given that everyone has access to strategic reserves now I'll be very interested to see what RG can bring to the table that is different. Perhaps we'll get to circumvent some of the restrictions or get to do it for cheaper?

[WAR]

This was posted in the Black Templars Thread  by Fulkes. I guess it is from the from one of the twitch feeds

 

 

[jpwyrm]

Well there are still some severe limitations with strategic reserves. Putting a full Centurion unit into reserves costs 2-3 CPs per unit whereas it only costs 1 with SftS. The deployment options are also limited to within 6" of a table edge, making it possible for a savy opponent to block every entry point but your own DZ. Again, SftS allows to deploy anywhere on the battlefield that is mire than 9" away, so a lot more flexibility there.

 

With smaller tables, more mobile vehicles and deadlier melee, I think we will gain a lot from pregame movement like Infiltration and Master of Ambush to position key units where they can do the most damage or tie up HVT. Having access to a lower CP costed deep strike option is just icing on the cake IMO.

 

Overall, I think RG will keep their edge on the deployment shenanigan front.

[Alcyon]

That's very reassuring, thanks for that insight!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Well there are still some severe limitations with strategic reserves. Putting a full Centurion unit into reserves costs 2-3 CPs per unit whereas it only costs 1 with SftS. The deployment options are also limited to within 6" of a table edge, making it possible for a savy opponent to block every entry point but your own DZ. Again, SftS allows to deploy anywhere on the battlefield that is mire than 9" away, so a lot more flexibility there.

Check the FAQ StfS no longer does that it now does this:

 

Codex: Space Marines, page 197 – Strike From the ShadowsChange this Stratagem to read:‘Use this Stratagem when you set up a Raven Guard Infantry unit from your army during deployment. At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move that unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. If both players have units that can move before the first turn begins, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first.’

 

They changed that and nerfed it really hard. Unless your meta ignores the FAQ.

 

 

With smaller tables, more mobile vehicles and deadlier melee, I think we will gain a lot from pregame movement like Infiltration and Master of Ambush to position key units where they can do the most damage or tie up HVT. Having access to a lower CP costed deep strike option is just icing on the cake IMO.

We're still more mobile than most armies in the deployment phase, but not as much as you think. Again, look at the FAQ.

 

 

Overall, I think RG will keep their edge on the deployment shenanigan front.

I don't disagree.

[thewarriorhunter]

I don't think I ever paid much attention to the rewording of SFtS but I do remember it being a nerf. After comparing that to Infiltrators we do still get a lot of pregame movement if wanted.

 

SFtS (1CP/unit) - move up to 9" (nice for models with a movement characteristic less than 9, most non-jump infantry)

Infiltrators (1CP/unit) - move as if it were the movement phase, so you can Advance

T1 - movement phase

 

In theory you have a lot of movement that can come out of this, like Assault Intercessors averaging 27" of movement if they move 9, advance 9 (6+3), and then advance 9 again. Minimum movement with that combo would be 23" with a max of 34". If you need to get somewhere across the board it's not terrible, but I do wish we had pre-SFtS back.

[Alcyon]

 

Well there are still some severe limitations with strategic reserves. Putting a full Centurion unit into reserves costs 2-3 CPs per unit whereas it only costs 1 with SftS. The deployment options are also limited to within 6" of a table edge, making it possible for a savy opponent to block every entry point but your own DZ. Again, SftS allows to deploy anywhere on the battlefield that is mire than 9" away, so a lot more flexibility there.

Check the FAQ StfS no longer does that it now does this:

 

Codex: Space Marines, page 197 – Strike From the ShadowsChange this Stratagem to read:‘Use this Stratagem when you set up a Raven Guard Infantry unit from your army during deployment. At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move that unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. If both players have units that can move before the first turn begins, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first.’

 

They changed that and nerfed it really hard. Unless your meta ignores the FAQ.

 

This is surprising to hear since it doesn't seem like anyone on the forums has been referring to SftS this way that I've seen. Subsequent erratas have come out for C:SM and the Raven Guard supplement with no mention of this so I wonder if GW abandoned that change or if maybe it just doesn't make it into the official erratas because it's still a beta rule.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

 

Well there are still some severe limitations with strategic reserves. Putting a full Centurion unit into reserves costs 2-3 CPs per unit whereas it only costs 1 with SftS. The deployment options are also limited to within 6" of a table edge, making it possible for a savy opponent to block every entry point but your own DZ. Again, SftS allows to deploy anywhere on the battlefield that is mire than 9" away, so a lot more flexibility there.

Check the FAQ StfS no longer does that it now does this:

 

Codex: Space Marines, page 197 – Strike From the ShadowsChange this Stratagem to read:‘Use this Stratagem when you set up a Raven Guard Infantry unit from your army during deployment. At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move that unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. If both players have units that can move before the first turn begins, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first.’

 

They changed that and nerfed it really hard. Unless your meta ignores the FAQ.

 

This is surprising to hear since it doesn't seem like anyone on the forums has been referring to SftS this way that I've seen. Subsequent erratas have come out for C:SM and the Raven Guard supplement with no mention of this so I wonder if GW abandoned that change or if maybe it just doesn't make it into the official erratas because it's still a beta rule.

 

It's not a beta rule, since I believe that all the tournaments use it.

[duz_]

I believe that's the old FAQ

The new FAQ is a pre game deep strike but Centurions can't use it

[thewarriorhunter]

I thought that was the change to MoA? sigh... time to go digging.

[duz_]

Maybe you're right...

I just remember not using stfs

 

I used MoA and infiltrators

[thewarriorhunter]

Yup, it was in the Supplement Erata: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/480c3779.pdf

 

MoA no longer works on Centurions but you can redeploy any INFANTRY as long as they are 9" away

SFtS - 9" move before the first turn

Infiltrators - move as if it were the movement phase before the first turn

 

EDIT: I HOPE THE APP FIXES ALL OF THIS CHASING AROUND OF FAQS

Edited June 24, 2020 by thewarriorhunter

[WAR]

I usually planned on taking MoA as it seemed more along the lines of Raptor tactics being a baby version of Lias Issoden's special rule. 

[thewarriorhunter]

I like MoA as well because it doesn't specify that the units have to be in any type of coherency so you can split them or group them together.

[Alcyon]

Yup, it was in the Supplement Erata: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/480c3779.pdf

 

SFtS - 9" move before the first turn

 

I still don't think this is correct.

 

The 1st 8th edition Codex: Space Marines came out July 2017 and was errata'd by the 2nd Big FAQ; you can tell because the FAQ refers to the SftS rule being on page 197 which doesn't exist in the 2nd version of C:SM.

 

The 2nd version of the 8th ed C:SM codex came out in August 2019 with the 9" deep strike SftS and was errata'd in September 2019, which makes no mention of SftS. Then the Raven Guard supplement came out that same month in September 2019 and also had the 9" deep strike version of SftS. Generally GW policy is newer supplements replace wording in older books.

 

Neither the Official C:SM Errata Update 1.2, nor the Official RG Supplement Errata Update Version 1.1, nor the February 2020 Space Marines Update mention Strike from the Shadows at all. Even the Tactical Reserves rule created as a beta in the November 2019 Big FAQ 2 was arguably replaced by the finalised matched play rules in the September 2019 FAQ and Errata Update, which doesn't include the modifications to the stratagems that the beta had.

 

TL;DR: The only mention of this specific rule alteration is in an obsolete errata for an obsolete version of a codex. GW had ~6 chances to solidify this alteration to SftS and did not do so. I dunno what tournament organizers are doing but RAW I think Raven Guard get to deep strike with SftS in 8th and 9th edition until we're explicitly told otherwise.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Alcyon

[duz_]

Well if there's still some uncertainty at this point it warrants its own thread either in the Ravenspire or the OR

[Dracos]

Guys the Space Marine: Codex and it's FAQs are ancient. Just check the Raven Guard Supplement.

 

"... anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away ... "

 

Knucklehead rule makers would have been better denying Centurions SftS instead of MoA. Would have ended all the Centurion silliness. 

 

 

There was nothing today that we didn't already know. They watered us down and White Scars even more so. Start prepping list to box out (using basketball term) everyone else from bringing in their big gribblies. Actually it's kind of fluffy. Using the Infiltrators to deny the midboard while the Eliminators and Intercessors (in my case) deny enemy use of my deployment zone. 

 

 

PS: I lied. The morale stuff is interesting and every army needs to reexamine unit composition effectiveness. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Dracos

[jpwyrm]

Guys, this is the Errata for Codex Space Marines Strike from the Shadows, not the Codex Raven Guard version of it. Look at the age of the FAQ, and at the wording too : Codex Space Marines p 197 - Srike From the Shadows.

 

We don't use that anymore, we use Codex RG Strike from the Shadows. Unless something changes for that stratagem in the relevant FAQ (and it hasn't since the MoA errata) I'm pretty sure we're good to go with the actual wording of SftS.

Edited June 24, 2020 by jpwyrm