Thoughts on Prepping for 9e

[duz_]

The free Core Rules pdf states that already. Hit and Wound roll are capped at 1 regarding modifiers.

So it does I just checked

I missed that oh well probably not a bad thing for the game

[Alcyon]

One of my FLGS' just confirmed my Indomitus pre-order, they're going for $239 plus tax minus 10% for pre-ordering, and that's all in Canadian loons. Truly a scream of a deal for conservatively like $600 worth of models plus a free rulebook. 

 

I have to confess I'm mostly excited about the Outriders; there are precious few Primaris melee units and especially basically none with any mobility. One of the biggest remaining strengths of the RG ruleset is MoA, a way to get nearly guaranteed turn 1 charges, but with few units able to support them that turn I think it risks glass cannonry. Outriders offer a 20" base movement on turn 1 plus a 30" shooting range and charge distance, facilitated by the Swift and Deadly warlord trait and protected by Skilled Riders, t5 and 4 wounds.

 

Eradicators also seem like a good option for Tactical Reserves after you manage to wipe enemy screens with your initial assault, as do Plasmaceptors now that they've had a points cut. Frankly I'm excited that there are competitive options besides Centurions which I never felt were very fluffy (plus the awful sculpts.)

HQ and Bladeguard-wise I think we are actually one of the best chapters/successors for these at the point of the current rules, again because Primaris ground troops with combat skills really lack mobility. Whether your Bladeguard and Judiciar are getting cover while screening your shooty units/holding an objective or using MoA to position themselves in the thick of it from before turn 1, we have options that don't involve Impulsors/Repulsors you can't charge out of. A lack of mobility after turn 1 is an issue but with the smaller table size that should hopefully be mitigated. We'll have to see how things play out.

I still have an Invictor, 3 Suppressors, 3 Eliminators, a squad of Intercessors and a Primaris Captain to paint (oh god, I've never typed it all out!) so I've got a lot to do before I even touch these guys, but I did just almost finish my Infiltrators so that's good news at least.

[Alcyon]

Actually the more I think about it, the more I'm contemplating a counts-as Shrike with an Inceptor flying stand (I know! I have yet to build any...) and some alternate arms and helmet. I really want a flying HQ to run with Plasmaceptors and he's really the only Primaris option for it as of yet. Biker Chaplain could work but doesn't really match, and +1 to hit can be cancelled out now and doesn't help as much with overcharging. I'm loathe to run a manlet Captain or convert up a Primaris one using non-WYSIWYG rules, and I was planning to use Inheritors of the Primarch anyway...

[superwill]

Hmmm, sadly nothing in the FAQ to replace the strats/CT that are affected by the 9th change (not that that’s surprising) so I guess we’re waiting for a codex and praying that there’ll be some help there with all that we’ve lost.

 

With all the points leaked now, Goonhammer has ranked all the factions from biggest winners to biggest losers. Marines in general are considered moderate winners, because even though they got standard increases, they were already in a good spot. Raven Guard lists got a couple of different special mentions as being amongst the biggest losers, particularly centurion spam.

 

I’m already thinking about a completely different list. I used to run very reinforcement heavy lists, but there are some huge changes to competitive play (5 turns instead of 6, objective scoring at the start of the round rather than the end) that mean showing up in force on turn 3 leaves you only turns 4 and 5 to score.

 

I’m looking at a big turn 1 rush force, using MoA and infiltrator to get straight up in the enemy’s face, and then taking a bunch of speedy units to back them up. I think it will be a lot weaker, but seems our best bet at the moment.

[duz_]

I'd be OK with a bit of a debuff less bandwagoners giving the Ravenspire a bad name :tu:

[Dracos]

I honestly can’t express how glad I am of the Centurion nerf.

 

I’m still not fond of the +/-1 caps on to hit/wound. On the to wound especially but seeing what they have done to the Imperial Fist it gives me hope things are going to shake out to be on a more balanced field across Factions. Which isn’t to say I don’t think we deserve something flavorful back after they’ve watered down our Kool aid.

 

I’m putting together a game plan very similar to SuperWill, but I want to focus on multipurpose units that shoot and fight. I’m looking at the 2 teams of Infiltrators as a tax at the moment, and with the Look Out Sir rule thinking I can drop from 3 to 2 Sniper Eliminator squads.

 

Definitely need to see a BattleScribe update points and get a look at the Grand Tournament 2020 missions before I settle on what I need to paint for new competitive list. Would really help if stores open up and we can start a Crusade/Escalation League again. :)

[Dracos]

Unrelated ... just how nasty can we get with stacking armor save bonuses? 

 

With the hard limit +/-1 to hit/wound, it seems that stacking armor saves via terrain and camo cloaks might be a thing. I am curious if anyone knows other armor buffs that can stack up?

 

If they want to nerf  the offensive rolls, maybe deep armor saves that negate AP is the next thing to a defensive gameplan now the stack minus to hit are out?

 

Could be a meta for Sallies with Eradicators and Invictors synergizing with their offensive power

Edited July 14, 2020 by Dracos

[Alcyon]

Hmmm, sadly nothing in the FAQ to replace the strats/CT that are affected by the 9th change (not that that’s surprising) so I guess we’re waiting for a codex and praying that there’ll be some help there with all that we’ve lost.

 

With all the points leaked now, Goonhammer has ranked all the factions from biggest winners to biggest losers. Marines in general are considered moderate winners, because even though they got standard increases, they were already in a good spot. Raven Guard lists got a couple of different special mentions as being amongst the biggest losers, particularly centurion spam.

 

I’m already thinking about a completely different list. I used to run very reinforcement heavy lists, but there are some huge changes to competitive play (5 turns instead of 6, objective scoring at the start of the round rather than the end) that mean showing up in force on turn 3 leaves you only turns 4 and 5 to score.

 

I’m looking at a big turn 1 rush force, using MoA and infiltrator to get straight up in the enemy’s face, and then taking a bunch of speedy units to back them up. I think it will be a lot weaker, but seems our best bet at the moment.

 

Did I miss something? I wasn't feeling like we really lost too much. We still have some very unique abilities at least for marines in infiltrate, pre-game movement and redeployment, plus we get +1 to our armour save roll as long as we're 12" away. Pretty good.

 

Glad to see Centurions got nerfed, myself - I don't think that was really a Raven Guard strategy so much as a Centurion tactic using RG rules. They're still very, very durable; I'm sure @SkimaskMohawk will obviously still be running them. And honestly I think the reserve rules changes will matter less than it seems; from the 9th ed batreps I've seen so far, turn 1 barely has any shooting as everyone deploys in cover since they don't know who gets first turn from the top. Units that can claim objectives safely turn 1 and then a B strike in turn 2 out of reserves seems pretty viable.

 

That said your plan is basically mine too - Aggressors and a Chaplain with MoA, using Canticle of Hate to get Outriders etc. also potentially into combat turn 1. Besides that it's using Infiltrators and Eliminators to seize and hold objectives right from the start of the game using Concealed Positions. Plus, Shrike with Plasmaceptors as a B strike.

[WAR]

Considering I usually play a heavy camo cloak scout list,  infiflitrators, eliminators and phobos captain are going to fit in perfectly

[Jacques Corbin]

I wonder if an deep strike with the Grav chute Phobos Lieutenant w/ Ex Tenebris and a squad of Bolter Inceptors is still good?

 

The way I see it, the infiltration and ambush sets up for the airborne marines to drop in. Given our doctrine, and the new way Look Out Sir works, attacking from multiple fronts is more important than ever.

[superwill]

Did I miss something? I wasn't feeling like we really lost too much. We still have some very unique abilities at least for marines in infiltrate, pre-game movement and redeployment, plus we get +1 to our armour save roll as long as we're 12" away. Pretty good.

 

I think the main reason for the Goonhammer score was the fact raven guard centurion spam was one of the top (maybe THE top) marine lists and now its dead.

 

Having said that, I do think there are a few big hits for us outside of that. The OG raven chapter tactic was pretty bad already but now it’s really bad. With the buffs to cover and the variety of bonuses it gives, it’s not very often you’re going to find yourself just happily sitting in the open and celebrating your bonus. And when you’re already in cover you’re quite likely finding the -1 redundant.

 

There are a variety of ways that maxing out at -1 hurts us uniquely amongst marines. Adding to that, whilst other armies are getting bonus damage or AP or attacks, most of our offensive buffs are bonuses to hit and wound which also no longer stack.

 

So our CT and many of our strats are significantly weaker/less likely to have any effect at all. And of course the fact sniper units are less crucial is sad for us too. And everyone basically getting a weaker version of SftS. Plus most super competitive raven guard lists were based around Raptors/Lias who just got deleted.

 

But perhaps the biggest nerf is a pretty quiet one, which is how deployment works in matched play (deployment being one of our main advantages). I mentioned already the shorter game and start of turn scoring affecting the usefulness of reserves, and then of course the change in competitive play from knowing who’s going first pre-deployment to now where we have to fully deploy before we know, hurts us more than most as we are able to really pounce on that advantage when we know we have it, or prepare ourselves better to play the long game, which now we can’t do. But if I’m understanding it right, maybe the worst impact on us is that decisions can’t be made mid-deployment anymore. I.e. We have to secretly choose what units will start on the board, which will start in reserves with SftS, even what units will use MoA and do deployment shenanigans, all before anyone has put a unit down. No more reactive decision making or flexible tactical counterplay, and that was one of the things which helped RG.

 

Anyways, I reckon there’s still ways forward which are way more cooler than the cent spam, and alongside others I’d be super glad to see RG be a solid but not cheesy choice. I just reckon we will need a little fixing up when the new dex comes.

Edited July 14, 2020 by superwill

[duz_]

But if I’m understanding it right, maybe the worst impact on us is that decisions can’t be made mid-deployment anymore. I.e. We have to secretly choose what units will start on the board, which will start in reserves with SftS, even what units will use MoA and do deployment shenanigans, all before anyone has put a unit down. No more reactive decision making or flexible tactical counterplay, and that was one of the things which helped RG.

 

 

I was just listening to a podcast this morning and heard this order of operations too

Without having the rules it does sound like any SftS and possibly MoA will have to be written down prior to deployment starting :o

Same goes for deep strikers no deciding on the fly :down:

 

I wonder how infiltrators is impacted though as its not a deployment but a pre game move so I think you don't have to call it in advance

Edited July 14, 2020 by duz_

[Alcyon]

I wonder if an deep strike with the Grav chute Phobos Lieutenant w/ Ex Tenebris and a squad of Bolter Inceptors is still good?

 

The way I see it, the infiltration and ambush sets up for the airborne marines to drop in. Given our doctrine, and the new way Look Out Sir works, attacking from multiple fronts is more important than ever.

 

I don't love the Lieutenant being stuck walking by himself if the Inceptors decide to buzz off somewhere else. That's why I'm going to run Shrike with my Plasmaceptors, he's the only Primaris character with a jump pack so far.

 

 

Having said that, I do think there are a few big hits for us outside of that. The OG raven chapter tactic was pretty bad already but now it’s really bad. With the buffs to cover and the variety of bonuses it gives, it’s not very often you’re going to find yourself just happily sitting in the open and celebrating your bonus. And when you’re already in cover you’re quite likely finding the -1 redundant.

 

There are a variety of ways that maxing out at -1 hurts us uniquely amongst marines. Adding to that, whilst other armies are getting bonus damage or AP or attacks, most of our offensive buffs are bonuses to hit and wound which also no longer stack.

 

So our CT and many of our strats are significantly weaker/less likely to have any effect at all. And of course the fact sniper units are less crucial is sad for us too. And everyone basically getting a weaker version of SftS. Plus most super competitive raven guard lists were based around Raptors/Lias who just got deleted.

 

But perhaps the biggest nerf is a pretty quiet one, which is how deployment works in matched play (deployment being one of our main advantages). I mentioned already the shorter game and start of turn scoring affecting the usefulness of reserves, and then of course the change in competitive play from knowing who’s going first pre-deployment to now where we have to fully deploy before we know, hurts us more than most as we are able to really pounce on that advantage when we know we have it, or prepare ourselves better to play the long game, which now we can’t do. But if I’m understanding it right, maybe the worst impact on us is that decisions can’t be made mid-deployment anymore. I.e. We have to secretly choose what units will start on the board, which will start in reserves with SftS, even what units will use MoA and do deployment shenanigans, all before anyone has put a unit down. No more reactive decision making or flexible tactical counterplay, and that was one of the things which helped RG.

 

Anyways, I reckon there’s still ways forward which are way more cooler than the cent spam, and alongside others I’d be super glad to see RG be a solid but not cheesy choice. I just reckon we will need a little fixing up when the new dex comes.

 

You really think it was bad? Honestly I have yet to play a game with the RG CT but it widely seems to be regarded as one of the best. A base 2+ save for marines outside of cover seems quite strong and so does -1 to hit.

 

Yes, modifiers are capped and I could be wrong about this, but abilities that grant +1 to hit instead of re-rolls are fairly rare (i.e. C:SM only gets it via a Chaplain litany on a 3+) and the cap only applies after modifiers. So as far as I understand it, if your marines in cover are being shot by enemy marines with a Chaplain litany active, they get 3+ to hit, plus 1 for the Chaplain to 2+, minus 1 for RG CT to 3+ again, then minus 1 for Dense Cover, meaning they hit on a 4+ which essentially negates the Chaplain's benefit. It's true that BS3 won't be booted back to BS5 against us but I think that's a case of us having it too good before rather than us getting nerfed unfairly.

 

Then you still get the benefit to your saving throw for being in cover, too, so Eliminators and Captains/Librarians in Phobos armour are especially resilient with a 1+ save, being able to ignore AP1. I guess it really depends on how people lay out terrain, if all the objectives are in cover then it's little help but I can certainly think of plenty of games where units were outside cover at critical moments, especially now that you need to be on or within a base.

 

What common buffs grant us bonuses to hit and wound? Our most common buffs are ubiquitous re-rolling to hit and wound which is unaffected. Meanwhile we still have Shock Assault and Outriders are coming down the pipe with +2 attacks on the charge on top of that. Doctrines and Ambushing Fire add AP so that's still good, Bolter Discipline, Rapid Fire and Veteran Intercessors add extra attacks, Deadly Prize adds mortal wounds... I think most C:SM and RG rules don't mess with the capped modifiers much, and the ones that do will rarely be coming up against enemy buffs that negate them.

 

I think snipers will still be pretty relevant as the changes to unit spacing will only matter until people learn the rules, and SftS does have some benefit still as a way to put units in reserve regardless of points cost for 1 CP while also being able to come on anywhere, not just from a table edge (including the opponent's deployment zone.) Losing Lias is sad but then again his abilities only affected firstborn marines anyway, and with the point delta between Tacticals and Intercessors being so small I think many people were transitioning anyway.

 

Re: deployment, I agree this is a big shift. That said I think most lists had a couple key units they were putting in reserves in order to maximize the value of things like a turn 1 charge with MoA or to protect a powerful beta strike unit turn 1, and so I doubt there is much lost in the inability to decide to put a squad of troops in reserve instead of Aggressors or Centurions. And there's no requirement to specify where the unit will go, so you can still use deployment (especially units with Concealed Positions) to force inferior positioning from your opponent and then deploy your MoA/SftS guys and use Infiltrators etc. to capitalize on those benefits. Maybe less of a nerf and an opportunity to rethink tactics.

 

I don't mean to call you out at all and obviously my opinion is cramped by a lack of recent games, but I don't think it's all that bad. 

[MajorNese]

It's not all doom and gloom. We just have to adapt to the new circumstances.

 

All our mobility and pregame deployment shenanigans can force bad decisions for our opponent. Pregame movement blocking center objectives with units that are hard to dislocate, and that they don't want to be in CC with, would be one example. Our CT making any unit tougher at range will get a lot of mileage when units actually have to survive a gunline to score - there will be enough gunline armies that place objectives in the open to just mow down their opponent and score later. Including vehicles, that can now move and keep up with their buffing characters. Sniper units mean that characters aren't even safe when surrounded by a blob of bodyguard - everyone will invest into some sort of bodyguard, and we ignore that bodyguard. And Emperor have mercy for the character that we can target - any of our units becomes bonkers against characters on turn 2-3, binding even more bodyguard units and forcing bad deployment instead of blocking objectives with those tanky units.

 

I for one am glad the cookie-cutter netlists of Issodon cent bomb and MoA cents become useless or harder to pull off.

Everything else will sort itself out after a few games...

[WAR]

 

I for one am glad the cookie-cutter netlists of Issodon cent bomb and MoA cents become useless or harder to pull off.

 

 

I may end up missing Lias but cant say I will miss either of those.

[Dracos]

Hopefully Issodon will show up refreshed in the Forge World books when they come out. Considering RG and WS only have one character model, I hope eventually GW will use 9e to give the less garish Chapters a chance to be fleshed out a bit.  ;)

[Jacques Corbin]

Ok, well maybe the Inceptors will stick around and act as a screen. 5 Grav Chute Reivers are more thematic and fluffy, but 9 T5 wounds are better than 10 T4 wounds.

 

I was also thinking of Lieutenebris in a shield dome Impulsor with either Carbine Reivers or even Auto Bolter Intercessors. The ability to disembark and shoot after the Impulsor moves is great. If I position the character between the transport and his squad, he will be difficult to reach.

 

I don't know. I usually play for board control, really going after those objectives. I try to take and hold the midfield right from the start. Then I make an aggressive play to capture part of my opponent's deployment zone. The whole game though, I try to hold my own deployment zone. Hopefully my opponent does not try a bunch of deployment and reserve shenanigans.

 

Also, anybody had any great ideas for a 50PL Crusade?

[Alcyon]

I actually hadn't thought much about how to deploy my LieuTenebris. The fact that he's only got a Grav-Chute and not Concealed Positions means he's actually better off using Master of Ambush while a Captain in Phobos Armour just deploys where he wants from the start. I was going to run a Primaris Captain with my Veteran Intercessors since then they'll all have Tacticus armour but now that you mention it I might have to pick up a Phobos Captain instead. 

 

On the other hand I could just deep strike the Lieutenant wherever he's most needed turn 2, since by that point Tactical Doctrines will be online anyways making the most of his to wound re-rolls. From the batreps I've seen, there isn't much to shoot at turn 1 anyway unless you have the second turn, since everyone turtles up not knowing if they get to alpha strike first or not.

 

I think playing for objectives will continue to be a major RG strength, especially now that the Vanguard marines are around with Concealed Positions. My plan is similar, deploying Infiltrators on midboard objectives and Eliminators on ones further back, then supporting the former with MoA and SftS/Tactical Reserves units which can push into the opponent's zone. If I face a lot of deep-strikers I might have to switch the Infiltrators to the back to make use of their 12" bubble, and maybe transition away from Las Fusil Eliminators to another anti-tank option (like Eradicators.)

Here's my current 50 PL Crusade plan, it's 66pts over 1k in 8th Ed points, which seems about typical for PL in this range.

• Primaris Chapter Master w/ MoA, Burning Blade
• Phobos LieuTenebris
• Invictor w/ Autocannon
• 2x5 Infiltrators
• 10x Veteran Intercessors, Sergeant w/ Thunder Hammer
• 3x Scout Bikes, Sergeant w/ Thunder Hammer
• 3x Suppressors
• 3x Eliminators w/ Las Fusil
• 3x Eliminators w/ Bolt Snipers

One 10 PL supply increase might be Shrike and a unit of 3 Plasmaceptors in exchange for the Chapter Master.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Alcyon

[WAR]

Remember you are gonna have to pay requisition points for warlord traits and relics in Crusade

[superwill]

You really think it was bad? Honestly I have yet to play a game with the RG CT but it widely seems to be regarded as one of the best. A base 2+ save for marines outside of cover seems quite strong and so does -1 to hit.

 

Yes, modifiers are capped and I could be wrong about this, but abilities that grant +1 to hit instead of re-rolls are fairly rare (i.e. C:SM only gets it via a Chaplain litany on a 3+) and the cap only applies after modifiers. So as far as I understand it, if your marines in cover are being shot by enemy marines with a Chaplain litany active, they get 3+ to hit, plus 1 for the Chaplain to 2+, minus 1 for RG CT to 3+ again, then minus 1 for Dense Cover, meaning they hit on a 4+ which essentially negates the Chaplain's benefit. It's true that BS3 won't be booted back to BS5 against us but I think that's a case of us having it too good before rather than us getting nerfed unfairly.

 

Then you still get the benefit to your saving throw for being in cover, too, so Eliminators and Captains/Librarians in Phobos armour are especially resilient with a 1+ save, being able to ignore AP1. I guess it really depends on how people lay out terrain, if all the objectives are in cover then it's little help but I can certainly think of plenty of games where units were outside cover at critical moments, especially now that you need to be on or within a base.

 

What common buffs grant us bonuses to hit and wound? Our most common buffs are ubiquitous re-rolling to hit and wound which is unaffected. Meanwhile we still have Shock Assault and Outriders are coming down the pipe with +2 attacks on the charge on top of that. Doctrines and Ambushing Fire add AP so that's still good, Bolter Discipline, Rapid Fire and Veteran Intercessors add extra attacks, Deadly Prize adds mortal wounds... I think most C:SM and RG rules don't mess with the capped modifiers much, and the ones that do will rarely be coming up against enemy buffs that negate them.

 

I think snipers will still be pretty relevant as the changes to unit spacing will only matter until people learn the rules, and SftS does have some benefit still as a way to put units in reserve regardless of points cost for 1 CP while also being able to come on anywhere, not just from a table edge (including the opponent's deployment zone.) Losing Lias is sad but then again his abilities only affected firstborn marines anyway, and with the point delta between Tacticals and Intercessors being so small I think many people were transitioning anyway.

 

Re: deployment, I agree this is a big shift. That said I think most lists had a couple key units they were putting in reserves in order to maximize the value of things like a turn 1 charge with MoA or to protect a powerful beta strike unit turn 1, and so I doubt there is much lost in the inability to decide to put a squad of troops in reserve instead of Aggressors or Centurions. And there's no requirement to specify where the unit will go, so you can still use deployment (especially units with Concealed Positions) to force inferior positioning from your opponent and then deploy your MoA/SftS guys and use Infiltrators etc. to capitalize on those benefits. Maybe less of a nerf and an opportunity to rethink tactics.

 

I don't mean to call you out at all and obviously my opinion is cramped by a lack of recent games, but I don't think it's all that bad.

Nah man I don’t mind the questions / disagreements at all! - I’m a big believer in robust discussion and iron sharpening iron. We’re all brothers (and sisters?) in the Ravenspire and on the same team ☺️

 

I’ve played classic RG a few times in experimenting but in 8th at tournaments I’ve only run Raptors with successor tactics, not RG. Funny that you say you heard mostly good things - I think most of the reviews I read rated them pretty low amongst the chapters. The other defensive Chapter Tactic in the book is Iron Hands with a 6+++ which will usually just be better, and is only 1/3 of their CT (and works on vehicles too, where ours often/usually had no effect). Compared to other armies in the game with just the plain -1 to hit without all the caveats (infantry only, already in cover) like Eldar and Chaos, ours was pretty weak. And now it’s even weaker since it will even more often do nothing.

 

As you said, for most armies getting +1s to hit is pretty rare (even rarer to stack them), so us being able to stack -1s isn’t that useful. It is a bit sad to think that I could have RG infiltrators in dense cover with smoke grenades and See but Remain Unseen, which would normally be -4, but is exactly the same as a bunch of grotz sitting in cover at -1. Just makes quite a few things less valuable/more likely to be useless.

 

The buffs to hit and wound I alluded to are mainly the super doctrine. Other than that, we only effectively have 2 offensive strats in the book - I think the lowest of any marine supplement? One of them gives a bonus AP on a 6 to wound, and the other is +1 to wound characters and big things that aren’t vehicles. Not a huge issue, I’m just saying that we had very few offensive options already and so the fact that they’re making it so you can’t stack those few options is a small nerf. I have actually used it a few times to give +2 to wound where now I can’t.

 

Anyway yeah I don’t mean to come across doom and gloom at all. As I mentioned I think it does provide some exciting new opportunities and it’ll be great for RG to shake the stigma they had this last year. Obviously cent spam RG have been neutered, but I guess my point is that there have still been a few small changes that have affected RG worse than other SM chapters.

 

Other chapters get strong bonuses in raw power through their strats and WLT/relics, whereas we’ve traded most of those out for flexible deployment/reserves and reactive positioning. If the new edition gives all armies increased flexibility in deployment/reserves and limits all army’s abilities to be reactive during deployment, I wouldn’t have thought it’s too controversial to suggest that has a negative effect on us and our unique strengths. Combined with a gentle nerfing of character protection, nerfs to hit/wound modifiers, and increased importance of being in REAL cover (where we would then often receive no benefit from our CT), they just seem to be more relevant changes to us than other chapters. Basically, other SM have got a bunch of new options (put anything in reserves, shoot characters positioned at the back, get -1 in cover) that we already excelled at.

 

Anyway I feel like I’m going in circles so I’ll leave it there haha. Not wanting to cast gloom anywhere, just saying that on the surface I think we will need a few changes in the dex to remove some of the new redundancies (like multiple -1 to hit defensive bonuses or +1 to wound characters bonuses) and to give us some more of the other chapters’ offensive/defensive power since they got some of our flexibility. Hope that makes sense. Totally fine if people disagree, and of course this is all very speculative and we won’t know for sure until the dice get rolling and the meta starts shaping!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Here's my quick and loose thoughts.

 

Grav centurions are still best in slot. They went up about 18% and were criminally undercosted to start with, so really they didnt even hit average levels of increase. Will shred everything on their side of the board: tripointing got nerfed and coupled with false flight and transhuman they're incredibly annoying to get rid of.

 

Beta strikes are a very real thing; build lists with the idea of coming in on turn 2 and dealing damage and surviving turn 1. Sfts allows a ton of flexibility with how you want to implement this.

 

Killing characters can be even more rewarding. Many secondaries are tied to character actions or killing characters; raven guard excel at this already.

 

Cp management hurts. Most of the spending is pre-game, and marines liked to abuse double battalion for all the ridiculous heavy support options. If you want triple eliminators and other heavy support, you gotta make sure you have a specific goal in mind for objective scoring and pre-game setup.

 

Losing issodon hurts. He was great and enabled melee bombs.

 

Don't spam the melta primaris unless you've got all your antihorde/indirect fire/other in your other slots. They're hella cheap but awful for slot efficiency.

 

Smm out

[Dracos]

With the way VP work now I think the beta-strike is a losing proposition. Scoring takes place at the top of the round and first round you don't score. With only five turns in a game I feel waiting to start scoring Primaries Turn 3 is giving th game away. You need to control at least half the objectives, preferably 3/4ths.

 

This what makes Infiltrators and the Infiltration stratagem such a powerful combo for us. We can push up a heavy hitter with each Infiltrator unit and have a fairly formidable forward position. I prefer to use Master of Ambush, not so much as an Alpha strike but Inceptors can surgically remove or cripple an element of our opponents forward position. Then potentially survive long enough to either fall back if facing heavy opposition or push through if an opportunity shows itself on Turn 2.

 

Turn 2 I feel we need to be consolidating positions we took Turn 1 if at all possible. Gran the momentum and keep on the pressure, but don't over extend. Ideally each mini strike force's heavy hitter should be within a move, advance, and charge of another mini strike force. That doesn't apply to my backfield as much but I might have to change that depending on how good these other factions get at maneuver shenanigans.

 

Superwill wasn't wrong when he said others have watered down versions of what we have and it "feels" like we've lost our uniqueness. I'm a snowflake though and I loved playing the chess while the other Chapters were playing checkers

 

Brothers of the Raven, it is time to get good and become Grand Masters

 

 

edit: I bought the Indomitus, and I love Gravis but bringing the amount of Eradicators and Eliminators I want to bear might mean adding a Patrol Detachment. Not my favorite way to spend 2 CP but honestly I have more CP now than I did with 2 Battalions to meh.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Dracos

[Alcyon]

How do people expect to use Eradicators? I'm trying to wrap my head around their utility, as it seems like they can't really get into range unless they come in from SftS turn 2, and as only a 3-man unit it's not a super efficient use of CP. Is that just the plan regardless, bring them on behind some kind of Infiltrator/Scout screen and hope to blast tanks and monsters?

[Dracos]

Unless they can eventually bulk up to a 3-6 unit I don't see them being particularly effective more than one turn. Even cheap as chips that doesn't work for me. I want them to work really bad, but I also am looking at adding a squad of 5 Plasma-Inceptors. I just really have this thing against units of 3 (Eliminators being the exception because 5 x3 of those would be wrong :))

 

I bought the Indomitus box for the Rulebook, Bladeguard and Intercessors. Outriders might replace the Bolter Inceptors or I might pay for a Patrol Detachment to load up on the heavy or fast attack a bit more not sure yet.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@dracos beta strike only means holding your priority units back to not be caught off guard by the first turn. You don't have to hold back your scoring units and give up ground to achieve that. You can even adapt it to more of an alpha strike with pods so you can have all your stuff on the ground and dealing damage turn 1 without risking your opponent going first. Also consider that while primaries can only be scored turn 2, secondaries can be scored sooner; if you rack up the secondaries early you can focus on the primaries for the last few turns so long as you have units left.

 

@alcyon eradicators don't have utility. They're pure multi-wound killers that are great for their points, but they only do the one thing and are bad targets for some buffs because of their small size. You could master of ambush them up turn 1 with your smash captain to get the most mileage out of deployment abilities.