Codex Split?

[Gederas]

I'm not saying they're going to cut all the old Marines. Just start with the super easy stuff like say captain on bike and vanilla lieutenant. Neither has a model.

Are you sure about that?

 

Captain on Bike and Lieutenant

 

Because the difference between a Lieutenant and Captain, in regards to Firstborn, is how much bling they have :lol:

[War Angel]

Here’s an idea, have the codex only include information about the Primaris Marines, pretty sure everyone has plenty of lore on tactical and assault squads. Anyone who’s new to the game probably won’t bother with those units anyway.

 

Take it a step further, take out the firstborn rules, just put them into the Ecodex. They probably haven’t changed much from the last codex anyway.

[Panzer]

The vanilla Marine Codex is already huge compared to other Codexes. GW doesn't care. They have no problem putting some more Datasheets and fluff sections in it. The split will happen but not just yet. :sweat:

[HighMarshalAmp]

 

 

[...]

Also, they could easily merge some datasheets together. Terminators and Assault Terminators could easily be a single datasheet, and merging Company Veterans with one or both of the other veteran squads wouldn't be hard. Land Raiders could potentially be merged as loadout options for a single datasheet, rather than three separate ones.

But thereby, they'd limit you to the Rule of 3 and you'd have to decide wether you wanted Sternguard or Vanguard Vets - who do drastically different jobs and thus aren't that interchangeable.

And would Devastators, Assault Squads and Tac Squads just become one Datasheet as well since they're Marines but not Veterans?

No, imho that would severely limit the tactical options of 10+ year old C:SM collections

 

Devastator, Assault, and Tactical Squads are in different force org slots, so they'd be harder to merge.

 

We don't know if the Rule of 3 will be the same in 9e, and besides, who's running more than three units of veterans of any kind? This has some downsides, and I'm not saying I love the idea, just that it sounds plausible-ish if they wanted to reduce the number of datasheets.

 

Yeah, true.

 

You know what that makes me think of? Remember when we thought Primaris might reduce the wargear bloat and give a reasonable selection of weapons and number of datasheets and everyone was thrilled?

Between regular, Marksman, Oculus and Instigator Bolt carbines alone, it hasn't worked out that well...

[Captain Idaho]

There really won't be a split. Each Codex GW releases is supported with a product line, which means it is updated and renewed and added to. GW are not making any more Classic Marines. They've even said as much to a YouTuber I spoke with a year or so ago.

 

Therefore they cannot support a Codex for Classic Marines.

 

It just won't happen. It's the economics of their business.

 

It's possible GW won't cut anything from the Codex, but I highly doubt that would be the case. If GW really didn't want to upset customers with the roll out of Primaris, they would have confirmed new models were coming for Classic Marines and indeed released some. Hell if GW didn't want to upset existing customers, they wouldn't have even produced Primaris but just updated the Classic Marines line.

 

GW are a business and whilst the design team might care about our existing miniatures (they're players too) Primaris was a business decision to get Marines to revisit their collection wholesale rather than piecemeal.

 

In summary, we'll see things dropped. We might be lucky this time round and see things collated into a few Datasheets, like Terminator armour being an update for models who use it rather than a separate Dataslate.

 

I doubt that would happen mind as it hasn't happened thought the entirety of 8th edition.

 

Real question is who is on the chopping block?

[Robbienw]

A YouTuber told you they told him, well that has settled it then :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Captain Idaho]

You can doubt as much as like, implying I'm either a liar or he is, but I think the vast majority of people will find truth in it. Edited June 15, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Rik Lightstar]

They are and likely will continue to for some time producing "classic" Space Marines, as established gamers we're prone to view these things through that lens.

 

To the new gamer, which is also often the biggest spender, ALL kits are "new" to them.

 

Armies can, have and do survive with minimal "new" releases for a decade at least.

 

Will the retool the current molds when they finally wear out, that's really only going to be down to sales figures.

 

Rik

 

Edit for spelling.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Rik Lightstar

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

In the older rulebooks, like in 5E, they were very well organized with no page flipping. This meant you sometimes had combined datasheets, such as for Terminators, and you'd swap out all the storm bolters and power fists for melee weapons, for example. Primaris already do this "whole squad" equipping, too. I remember hearing GW say the new rulebooks would require less page flipping, so perhaps we'll see some unit entries being consolidated.

[Lukoi]

The vast majority of the books are fluff. Adding 3 pages for 14 new units might come at the cost of a few paragraphs of fluff, or sidebar quotes from fictional characters etc. Theres no need to gouge the player base for two books when one works. I can get gouged on the fluff to my heart's content via the black library buying the novels ;)

[Medjugorje]

There is another idea I havent thought about.

 

New main Space Marines codex without any chapter specific rules. Then Black Templars, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Blood Angels get their supplement.

 

( i dont believe that but its an option )

[Subtleknife]

Personally I dont think Black Templars should be a supplement imo. It should be first founding only. If anything BT should be inc in the IF, just make it thicker.

[Medjugorje]

Personally I dont think Black Templars should be a supplement imo. It should be first founding only. If anything BT should be inc in the IF, just make it thicker.

??? BT should have their own codex.

 

To be a first founding chapter is just a decision how to write the lore. This army have a theme (which is much more important) and a huge fanbase (which is much more important).

Edited June 17, 2020 by Medjugorje

[Subtleknife]

 

 

Personally I dont think Black Templars should be a supplement imo. It should be first founding only. If anything BT should be inc in the IF, just make it thicker.

??? BT should have their own codex.

 

To be a first founding chapter is just a decision how to write the lore. This army have a theme (which is much more important) and a huge fanbase (which is much more important).

Many chapters have themes but dont get a supplement. They should just be included in the fists supplement imo.

[Medjugorje]

Sorry if I am very rude here. this is a very sensitive thing we talk about for me.

 

I think the Fists should be in the Black Templar supplement and the Ultramarines should have nothing special because they are THE Codexwriters and should have just that one book because Guilliman wrote the codex astartes

Not the Supplement Astartes.

[Hymnblade]

I'm not inherently opposed to sharing a book with (an)other chapter(s), but if it means BT get homogenized to "IF plus a couple extra stratagems", that's a hard pass for me. It works for Crimson Fists because they really do share a lot of traits with their parent chapter; thinking of them as "IF plus diff" sort of makes sense. But the Black Templars are wildly divergent; we share none of our defining traits with the Imperial Fists, both lorewise and rules-wise. It would be hard to make a decent "IF and BT" supplement without just literally writing two separate supplements and then gluing them together.

[Subtleknife]

Sorry if I am very rude here. this is a very sensitive thing we talk about for me.

 

I think the Fists should be in the Black Templar supplement and the Ultramarines should have nothing special because they are THE Codexwriters and should have just that one book because Guilliman wrote the codex astartes

Not the Supplement Astartes.

Let's get some perspective on this dude....its a game.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to disagree and vice versa. It's all moot anyway as at the end of the day no ones opinion is more valid than the other.

 

For instance I think Ultras have plenty of things that justify having their own supplement etc.

 

At the end of the day GW can easily create a justification for any chapter to have their own supplement. Personally, I think they should just stick to first founding as the fairest way.

[Hymnblade]

 

Personally, I think they should just stick to first founding as the fairest way.

Fair to who, though?

 

 

Black Templars are second-founding, but that doesn't mean we're a tiny niche. Heck, we used to be the poster boys for the entire game:

 

 

GW has since decided to develop all the first-founding chapters a lot more, which is great. And sharing a book isn't inherently bad, but if sharing a book means taking away all the character that BT have had for the last 20 years, that isn't fair in any sense of the word.

[phoenix01]

Well, consider for a moment, the firstborn Captain. There is:

Captain

Captain in Terminator Armor

Captain in Cataphractii Armor

Captain on Bike

Each has a half page entry in the codex. Now lets combine the four entries somewhat. The entries would look something like this:

 

CAPTAIN

NAME                                             M  WS  BS  S   T  W  A  Ld  Sv

Captain                                           6"   2+   2+  4   4   5  4   9    3+

A Captain is a single model armed with a chainsword, a master-crafted boltgun, a bolt pistol, frag grenades and krak grenades.

WEAPON                              RANGE         TYPE              S     AP     D      ABILITIES

Bolt pistol                                   12"          Pistol 1              4       0       1      -

Master-crafted boltgun               24"         Rapid Fire 1       4      -1      2       -

Chainsword                            Melee         Melee             User    0       1       Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional

                                                                                                                      attack with this weapon.

Relic blade                             Melee         Melee               +2     -3     D3      -

Frag grenade                             6"           Grenade D6       3       0       1       -

Krak grenade                             6"           Grenade 1         6       -1     D3      -

Twin boltgun                              24"         Rapid Fire 2       4       0       1       -

WARGEAR OPTIONS

    This model may replace its master-crafted boltgun with an item from the Pistols, Combi-weapons, or Melee Weapons lists.

    This model may replace its chainsword with a storm shield, relic blade or an item from the Melee Weapons list.

    This model may take a jump pack (Power Rating +1). If it does, its Move characteristic is increased to 12" and it gains the

    JUMP PACK and FLY keywords.

    This model may, instead of a jump pack, take a Space Marine bike (Power Rating +1). If it does, its Move characteristic is

    increased to 14", its Toughness characteristic is increased to 5, its Wounds characteristic is increased to 6 and it gains the

    BIKER keyword and loses the INFANTRY keyword. It also gains a twin boltgun (as part of the Space Marine bike).

ABILITIES

    Angels of Death (applicable page)

    Rites of Battle: You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly <CHAPTER> units within 6" of this model.

    Iron Halo: This model has a 4+ invulnerable save.

    Storm Shield: A model with a storm shield has a 3+ invulnerable save.

    Jump Pack Assault: During deployment, if this model has a jump pack, you can set it up high in the skies instead of placing

    it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases this model can assault from above - set it up anywhere on the

    battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.

    Turbo-boost: If this model has a Space Marine bike, when this model Advances, add 6" to its Move characteristic for that

    Movement phase instead of rolling a dice.

FACTION KEYWORDS - IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, <CHAPTER>

KEYWORDS - CHARACTER, INFANTRY, CAPTAIN

 

CAPTAIN IN TERMINATOR ARMOUR

NAME                                            M  WS  BS  S  T   W  A  Ld  Sv

Captain in Terminator Armour    5"   2+   2+  4   4   6   4   9   2+

A Captain in Terminator Armour is a single model armed with a power sword and storm bolter.

WEAPON                              RANGE         TYPE             S      AP     D      ABILITIES

Storm bolter                                24"         Rapid Fire 2      4       0       1      -

Wrist-mounted grenade              12"         Assault D3        4      -1       1       -

launcher

Chainfist                                 Melee         Melee               x2     -4       2      When attacking with this weapon, you must subtract

                                                                                                                     1 from the hit roll.

Power fist                               Melee         Melee               x2     -3      D3    When attacking with this weapon, you must subtract

                                                                                                                     1 from the hit roll.

Power sword                          Melee         Melee             User   -3       1       -

Relic blade                             Melee         Melee               +2     -3     D3      -

WARGEAR OPTIONS

    This model may replace its storm bolter with an item from the Terminator Combi-weapons or Terminator Melee Weapons lists.

    This model may replace its power sword with a storm shield, relic blade, chainfist or an item from the Terminator Melee Weapons

    list.

    This model may replace its Terminator Armour with Cataphractii Armour (Power Rating +1). If it does, its Move Characteristic is 

    decreased to 4" and its storm bolter is replaced with a combi-bolter. It may replace its power sword with a relic blade, chainfist or

    an item from the Terminator Melee Weapons list.

ABILITIES

    Angels of Death (applicable page)

    Rites of Battle: You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly <CHAPTER> units within 6" of this model.

    Iron Halo: This model has a 4+ invulnerable save.

    Storm Shield: A model with a storm shield has a 3+ invulnerable save.

    Teleport Strike: During deployment, you can set up this model in a teleportarium chamber instead of placing it on the battlefield.

    At the end of any of your Movement phases this model can teleport into battle - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more

    than 9" away from any enemy models.

    Cataphractii Armour: If this model is equipped with Cataphractii Armour, it has a 3+ invulnerable save, but must halve the result of

    the dice rolled when determining how far the model Advances.

FACTION KEYWORDS - IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, <CHAPTER>

KEYWORDS - CHARACTER, INFANTRY, TERMINATOR, CAPTAIN

 

Now considering that I have done very little formatting, I'm sure this could be formatted to fit one page rather than the two it is now. If they do formatting changes and combine some of these units together (Captains, Librarians, Chaplains, Terminators, Land Raiders) in this manner, they could make room for the new stuff without losing any of the old stuff in the process or adding lots of pages to the codex.

[Subtleknife]

To keeping it standardised. You are literally trying to argue against an opinion here dude so I'm not sure what you are exactly trying to achieve but oh well...

[The Ergonomic Enginseer]

Why don't we get rid of codex's entirely use the data sheets in the boxes.

[Medjugorje]

To keeping it standardised. You are literally trying to argue against an opinion here dude so I'm not sure what you are exactly trying to achieve but oh well...

because there are more people with another opinion. And more people means more money. 

[Subtleknife]

No you have more people on a forum that does not mean that trends carries over to the whole of the GW userbase. But whatever dude you really need to get over this. It's just my opinion...its just a game. I will not be engaging with you further on this topic.

[Dracos]

Sorry if I am very rude here. this is a very sensitive thing we talk about for me.

 

I think the Fists should be in the Black Templar supplement and the Ultramarines should have nothing special because they are THE Codexwriters and should have just that one book because Guilliman wrote the codex astartes

Not the Supplement Astartes.

 

I am all in on Black Templar getting their own Supplement and would join a Kickstarter if GW said that is the only way they would do it . . .

 

 . . . but that quote . . . that's, well it's sad actually. Man. Unless your being sarcastic? Because then cool, just less subtle, I'm a blunt object kind of guy

 

 

Either way, we know eventually a Codex split is going to happen. Just depends on the earliest moment they think it will make them the most money (which isn't bad of itself) I want a Primaris bad enough it hurts, Constantly feeling held back by whatever design/release plan they have going is killing me sometimes (can't afford two of everything teaching asst. don't get paid jack ) 

 

I imagine Medjugorje feels kinda of the same.

 

 

PS: Hymnblade neat screen capture, but that's a slippery slope as far as data collection goes. Next thing you know will be squatting GSC, Alpha Legion, White Scars and Harlequins (actually I'm okay with that last one j/k kinda lol) ;)

Edited June 18, 2020 by Dracos

[Marshal Reinhard]

Personally I dont think Black Templars should be a supplement imo. It should be first founding only. If anything BT should be inc in the IF, just make it thicker.

Fairness from the eyes of a first founding player, everyone.