Do Valerian and Aleya work now?

[Mandragola]

Before War of the Spider, Aleya used to mess up Custodes detachments by having the wrong keywords. Now I don't think she does, as Sister of Silence units are allowed in Custodes detachments. I think the detachment can even be a Shield host, though neither character would benefit.

 

If I'm right then I think this unit becomes quite an interesting option. As a Sister of Silence, Aleya now gives access to a whole bunch of stratagems, some of which are really quite useful.

 

There's still the slight issue of the missprint (I hope) of giving them a cost two times what it should be, but saying their points per model is 188, rather than that being the cost for the unit.

 

Anyway, stratagems like Creeping Dread and Empyric severance could get used a fair bit, while Immaterial Dissonance and Desperation's Price could occasionally come in handy.

[sairence]

It's not really clear unfortunately.

 

Individually they would fulfill the requirements. As a unit, which they are when you put them in your list, they only have the Imperium KW. So technically..once you have them on the table you're good, but you can't actually put them in a list to get them there?

 

It's still a bit of a mess I think.

Edited June 24, 2020 by sairence

[Noserenda]

Its perfectly clear, they still only have the Imperium keyword, so yeah, break detatchments as they are neither Custodes nor SoS for list construction. Still needs FAQing.

[balordazul]

Send an email into the GW FAQ they are the people that will handle any changes.  

For match play Norserenda pointed out the road block. They only have faction key word of Imperium. They fall outside of all armies right now in the current rule system, yikes and oops.

The following is the list of issues that needs to be addressed on that magical day known as "someday".  If you want to email GW here was my list of suggestions.

1. Downloadable data sheet on the community site as it is not in print. 

2. Double check and address issues of key words and war of the spider so they are playable for match play games.

3. Re-examine the 188 per model cost and that you really wanted them to cost 376 points?

4. Update Aleya's sword Somnus Blade to be inline with the standard weapon if not give her something extra as she is their only named character tied to Sister of Silence.

5. Update the Witch Hunter rule to match War of the Spider.

These are fluffy characters and they don't have to be good just legal to play and ideally feel like someone took a few extra minutes to address the issues.

[Mandragola]

Ok that’s disappointing. When they published these two, they said a future supplement would make them legal. I thought that the new rule meant they would both be allowed in a Custodes force, though having either the Custodes or SoS keywords.

 

I hadn’t realised that Aleya’s sword was worse than the standard Vigilator’s. That’s funny.

 

Balordazul, I think that if they did fix all the stuff you correctly identify, these two could possibly be worth bringing. Even then though, they’d be at best “fine”. Alexa gives you a somewhat safer way to do SoS strats than if you took a squad / which could very easily be shot.

[balordazul]

As far a strong or competitive they wound need a major overhaul.  These are "fun" characters and I'm ok with that as we have many options for strong HQs.  

 

Fundamentally they are not in a good spot to be a strong choice.  They are nice models to use as stand-ins for other models.  

 

Valerian is a shield captain with two relics his weapon has a +1s but S6 vs S7 is truly a very minor buff as S8 is the key threshold as of 8th edition.  His Golden Laurels is neat as it gives him a option of a single re-roll but it is also very limited as it is once per game.  For him to standout over the other options in the codex or war of the spider either his combat level would need to go up or his Golden Laurels would become a secondary aura of some kind.  Alternatively making him silly cheap would work but we are trying to force him to be a strong character.

 

Aleya has several issues first they did not have any character template to really built and point her off of besides trying to pull from a SoB HQ.  Her sword and witch hunter rule being out of date is the second issue. The Somnus Blade is a Named Relic of a mysterious origin but as of right now it is just a Great Blade (when updated).  She also offers no auras for SoS and being a melee HQ she also comes with no invulnerable save.

 

If they fix them even at the minimal level for "most" people to feel comfortable fielding them they will need to be a bargain points value.  They are fluffy characters that someone messed up on the rules and or data sheet.  We may not see them updated in a while as GW is likely working overtime on the major points update, FAQs and other projects leading up to 9th.

[nordsturmking]

As far a strong or competitive they wound need a major overhaul.  These are "fun" characters and I'm ok with that as we have many options for strong HQs.  

 

Fundamentally they are not in a good spot to be a strong choice.  They are nice models to use as stand-ins for other models.  

 

Valerian is a shield captain with two relics his weapon has a +1s but S6 vs S7 is truly a very minor buff as S8 is the key threshold as of 8th edition.  His Golden Laurels is neat as it gives him a option of a single re-roll but it is also very limited as it is once per game.  For him to standout over the other options in the codex or war of the spider either his combat level would need to go up or his Golden Laurels would become a secondary aura of some kind.  Alternatively making him silly cheap would work but we are trying to force him to be a strong character.

 

Aleya has several issues first they did not have any character template to really built and point her off of besides trying to pull from a SoB HQ.  Her sword and witch hunter rule being out of date is the second issue. The Somnus Blade is a Named Relic of a mysterious origin but as of right now it is just a Great Blade (when updated).  She also offers no auras for SoS and being a melee HQ she also comes with no invulnerable save.

 

If they fix them even at the minimal level for "most" people to feel comfortable fielding them they will need to be a bargain points value.  They are fluffy characters that someone messed up on the rules and or data sheet.  We may not see them updated in a while as GW is likely working overtime on the major points update, FAQs and other projects leading up to 9th.

I didn't realise it was this bad... Thanks for the analysis.

[Sete]

Community team is useless, only thing they are good for is for stupid banter and memes.

They don't even acknowledge the issue despite the emails and tweets.

 

Let us know if you get a reply Balordazul

[balordazul]

Community team is useless, only thing they are good for is for stupid banter and memes.

They don't even acknowledge the issue despite the emails and tweets.

 

Let us know if you get a reply Balordazul

Hey Sete,

 

I hope you and your family are healthy and well.  So I had sent it in to both the community team and the FAQ emails.  I have never gotten a replay from the FAQ email but my math feedback has shown up in chapter approved changes.  Was it impacted by me? I have no idea I was asking for them to do a second pass but they don't seem to engage the common man.  The community team said they had forwarded my information to the correct people.  That could be the case or it went to the trash.  

 

I'm not part of the feedback team so it is extremely unlikely my stuff is viewed with anything more then a cursory glance.  I do expect there email is flooded by an extreme amount of silly requests and number of major issues but sorting them is likely a mess and things can be overlooked.  Heck, I get anywhere between 15 to 30 work related emails between 7pm and 6am I honestly cringe when thinking about what a GW feedback email inbox looks like.

 

When I get a moment I'm planning on sending a second email in along with some 9th ed suggestions for Valerian and Aleya.  Purely academic as I have done amateur game design as part of a testing, feedback and design discussion team for a different smaller company and expect nothing to come of it.

[Sete]

Been a rough year my friend, not gonna lie. Hope everything is alright with you and yours aswell.

 

Its good to know they act on feedback at least, and I sincerely believe that it will be addressed, but the main issue is the fact that war of the spider should have sorted the issue per what they told us.

 

I honestly am not in the mood to keep insisting on stuff, trying to chill, and not let my frustrations take hold of me. Its out of my control.

 

Appreciate your effort tho!

[duz_]

On several podcasts they've mentioned they do read every submission

And when appropriate do take on board the feedback and suggestions

 

They have also said that they tend not to look at repeated submissions. Ie. The same comments and suggestions being sent it. With the implication being this repeat information is from the same individual(s)

 

Not to discourage anyone providing honest constructive feedback. Just to let those who are unaware that the faq is actively monitored but don't abuse it :D

[balordazul]

Yep, just like is all things if you become a pain you get ignored.  

 

They liking have a few people that email them very often and a number of crazy angry gamers. When a company makes a statement like that it is because there has been enough issues that they need to make that known.  

 

I also think it is important to set up all your feedback as information or suggestions that don't need further interaction.  That would be the other side to my contact interactions with GW.  The community team I think has replied to everything I have sent them and that might have been 5 emails from the start of 8th.  The FAQ team has never replied but you also should not need to have a reply.  Every time I have sent something in it is data, possible oops in the rules or something to consider for the future of the game and non of those really need a response.

 

It also helps that I have done testing and feedback for another game company along with design discussions with their team.  It has given me some really interesting insights into how the process works.  I now have a big appreciation on how hard their job is and the complications for good game design.  For as many issues 40k might have the design team has really done a great job considering the scope of the game.

[Noserenda]

I have popped an email over with my concerns and quantifying the problems as i see them, can only hope it helps :) 

 

[Mandragola]

I've sent feedback a couple of times but don't think I've ever had a reply. That said, you do see them making changes - which is positive.

 

I doubt we'll see much revision of these two then. They're really just fluff characters, which is fine. It's a shame their writing was quite as lazy as it was, particularly with stuff like the relic sword that's worse than a normal one.

 

I'd been wondering whether it was worth bringing Aleya despite how average she is, in order to get someone to us SoS strats with character protection. I think the answer is "no". Custodes characters can be very strong, and even more so since PA, so the opportunity cost of taking these two is too high.

[Sete]

Im disappointed with the lack os SoS support, because this will turn into a vicious circle that will hinder SoS in the long run.

 

No HQ, no proper army list will make low sales, which in turn will drive investment away from the faction.

That's what happened with BT, and with whatever faction without proper support.

 

We are still far away from 30k talons quality.

[Mandragola]

To be fair, SoS are barely a faction. They're a single box set. It would be good if the Kharon got rules for 40k in the FW indexes. Rhinos are pretty boring in comparison.

 

Once of course the Custodes were also just a single sprue. It's possible that SoS will get the same treatment as them, particularly if GW decide to make them more of a "thing" in the universe. They do seem like a useful organisation to have around, but fluff-wise they've been neglected for Millennia, to the point that they barely exist. I quite liked the Valerian and Aleya books though and it would be fun if we got to see the organisation start to reemerge, as it's doing in the fiction.

[Sete]

But that one box can be used to make 3 different units, with different gear.

Sword, flamers and Boltguns.

 

And yet they are 3 elite slots.

 

They could be divided between troops and elites, with option for HQ, and if they have time and resources to do a go kart, they might aswell do a grav rhino for SoS.

 

Add a cyberdog box another unit sorted.

 

I expect more support for Custodes because that sad excuse of a plastic contemptor feels so out of place its cringy.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Sete

[BluejayJunior]

They definitely work together. GW confirmed it when they were released in this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/27/valerian-and-aleya-on-the-battlefieldgw-homepage-post-3fw-homepage-post-3/

 

"If you’re up to speed with all the latest rules developments in Chapter Approved 2019, you’ll notice that, by only having the Imperium Faction Keyword on their combined datasheet, Valerian and Aleya cannot currently join an Adeptus Custodes Detachment without the latter losing their Battle-forged bonus. However, you need not worry, for it won’t be long before both factions will be able to fight as one once more, when the Talons of the Emperor join the epic battles of the Psychic Awakening…"

 

The Talons of the Emperor rule states that Sisters of Silence do not count when determining keywords for a battleforged army. 

[Noserenda]

They definitely work together. GW confirmed it when they were released in this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/27/valerian-and-aleya-on-the-battlefieldgw-homepage-post-3fw-homepage-post-3/

 

"If you’re up to speed with all the latest rules developments in Chapter Approved 2019, you’ll notice that, by only having the Imperium Faction Keyword on their combined datasheet, Valerian and Aleya cannot currently join an Adeptus Custodes Detachment without the latter losing their Battle-forged bonus. However, you need not worry, for it won’t be long before both factions will be able to fight as one once more, when the Talons of the Emperor join the epic battles of the Psychic Awakening…"

 

The Talons of the Emperor rule states that Sisters of Silence do not count when determining keywords for a battleforged army. 

Its like you didnt even read the thread... They said they fixed it, but actually didnt fix it. Even in the broadest most charitable interpretation of that rule you still cant take them in a battleforged list because Valerian still breaks battleforged even if you squint and squirm and allow Aleya to work.

 

Much as we would like it, the community teams promises dont trump what the rules team actually wrote.

[Mandragola]

I think the RAI is clear that they should be allowed in a Custodes force. Valerian has the Adeptus Custodes keyword and Alexa has Sisters of Silence. Maybe they didn’t get the RAW of that technically correct, but it’s good enough for me. I’d check with a TO if they were allowed before fielding them, but I’d be surprised if they said no. I’d check the pretty obvious typo of points too.

 

The bigger problem is that they’re just not that good. The writers did a bad job with these two. Valerian is worse than a normal shield captain as he’ll now lack a bunch of bonuses they’ve received in PA. Aleya probably is a fairly good way to access SoS stratagems, but ultimately those aren’t all that big a deal and she’s not much use in combat.

[BluejayJunior]

 

They definitely work together. GW confirmed it when they were released in this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/27/valerian-and-aleya-on-the-battlefieldgw-homepage-post-3fw-homepage-post-3/

 

"If you’re up to speed with all the latest rules developments in Chapter Approved 2019, you’ll notice that, by only having the Imperium Faction Keyword on their combined datasheet, Valerian and Aleya cannot currently join an Adeptus Custodes Detachment without the latter losing their Battle-forged bonus. However, you need not worry, for it won’t be long before both factions will be able to fight as one once more, when the Talons of the Emperor join the epic battles of the Psychic Awakening…"

 

The Talons of the Emperor rule states that Sisters of Silence do not count when determining keywords for a battleforged army. 

Its like you didnt even read the thread... They said they fixed it, but actually didnt fix it. Even in the broadest most charitable interpretation of that rule you still cant take them in a battleforged list because Valerian still breaks battleforged even if you squint and squirm and allow Aleya to work.

 

Much as we would like it, the community teams promises dont trump what the rules team actually wrote.

 

How does Valerian break Battleforged?

Even if you claim they can't be taken because they only share the Imperium keyword (despite the fact Valerian has Adeptus Custodes keyword and battleforged only says that each unit, not each model, must have a keyword in common), that means they only can't be taken when using one specific matched play rule. 

[Gederas]

They definitely work together. GW confirmed it when they were released in this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/27/valerian-and-aleya-on-the-battlefieldgw-homepage-post-3fw-homepage-post-3/

 

"If you’re up to speed with all the latest rules developments in Chapter Approved 2019, you’ll notice that, by only having the Imperium Faction Keyword on their combined datasheet, Valerian and Aleya cannot currently join an Adeptus Custodes Detachment without the latter losing their Battle-forged bonus. However, you need not worry, for it won’t be long before both factions will be able to fight as one once more, when the Talons of the Emperor join the epic battles of the Psychic Awakening…"

 

The Talons of the Emperor rule states that Sisters of Silence do not count when determining keywords for a battleforged army. 

Its like you didnt even read the thread... They said they fixed it, but actually didnt fix it. Even in the broadest most charitable interpretation of that rule you still cant take them in a battleforged list because Valerian still breaks battleforged even if you squint and squirm and allow Aleya to work.

 

Much as we would like it, the community teams promises dont trump what the rules team actually wrote.

How does Valerian break Battleforged?

Even if you claim they can't be taken because they only share the Imperium keyword (despite the fact Valerian has Adeptus Custodes keyword and battleforged only says that each unit, not each model, must have a keyword in common), that means they only can't be taken when using one specific matched play rule.

Which is how most people play the game. In Open/Narrative they're fine.

 

But they're not a legal choice for Matched Play. When list-building is what matters, and as a UNIT Valerian & Aleya only have the IMPERIUM keyword. Which means if you put them in a Custodes/Talons detachment breaks battle-forged.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Gederas

[Noserenda]

Exactly what Gederas said, now my group is plenty relaxed to allow that sort of thing but im well aware not everyone has such a group so id rather the rules actually, y'know, worked as written in case of the type of opponent you run into in public spaces.

I also wouldnt mind if they didnt suck but hey.

[Mandragola]

Bit of a random thing here, but the points cost for these two can be seen in the leaked marine stuff. It's going to be 200 for the pair, so they've at least lost the dumb issue of accidentally costing double what they are meant to. 125 for Ephrael Stern and her harlequin friend.

[Ulfast]

That sounds good, perhaps time to get them then ;)