Why are there no Salamanders out there?

[templargdt]

General question I've been thinking about.  In 12 years of playing I have never once seen a Salamanders army on a table. 

 

Anyone else notice this?  Why?  Anyone have theories?  I'd say locality bias might be an answer but I've lived in 5 different states in 12 years and attended some big events over the years.  Not one. 

 

It seems like board activity here backs up how I see it.  Looking at the board activity, the Sallies forum is nearly empty.  Yes, the Scars forum has even less activity but I think that's a relatively recent change based on the last board clean up a while back, along with the launch of 8th.  I played my Blood Ravens as counts as Scars for forever; I could be wrong but I feel like the Scars forum used to be much more heavily visited.  But not the Sallies forum, my recollection its always been a ghost town.

 

Its even stranger to me reading the Sally supplement.  I have barely touched 8th edition but my impression is it's really good.  Vulkan and Adrax have amazing abilities and stats for their prices.  Their super doctrine is great.  The Sally Chapter Tactic is strong, especially as AP -1 weapons proliferate (basically bolt rifles.)

 

It's not even a rough army to paint like Imperial Fists or Scars.  It's Green and Black.

[Zebulon]

My theory: quite a lot of people think The Sallies are “too nice, not enough grimdark”

 

I have a Sallies army from 5th edition but then I have a lot of armies. I always liked the idea of humanitarian blacksmith warriors forged in fire... but yeah, “too nice” *shrug*

[CCE1981]

My 3rd through start of sixth army was Salamanders. I skipped most of sixth and all of seventh. When I started again I wanted to create my own Chapter something I had wanted to do for since fifth.

[ranulf the revenant]

Yeah, kind of sad. I like them a lot actually. Maybe they're just not as prominently featured in beginner friendly products? I remember reading the Ragnar novels as a kid, which really strengthend my bond to the Space Wolves, for example, don't know if there's something similiar out there involving Salamanders. There are the Horus Heresy novels, but I think there more aimed at people who are already advanced in the lore...

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Salamanders are always a "someday" project for me. Part of the reason they stay that way is that they feel like a chapter that I'd want to do some more extensive conversions for with scale cloaks and ornate guns, but never seem to want to source the bits. The new conversion sprues and character are both tempting though to at least make a kill team of them.

 

I'm surprised that there aren't more especially since the mk.10 armor uses the mk.iv helmet which always looked the best in salamander art to me.

[CCE1981]

In answer to your questions though why don’t you see Sallies. Well they started off at initiative 3, for greater access to wargear...on their sergeants...gear you didn’t want to pay that many points for on a mere sergeant, plus a restricted force organization chart. In comparison in the same Codex (Armageddon) Black Templars got a reduction in points because they were restricted from taking wargear nobody took anyways, plus squads that had more access to power weapons.

 

Then in fourth edItion, if I remember my codices right, they got a boon that was also a bane. The boon allowed the Sallies player to choose to play one more turn if he said no his opponent got the choice. The bane was your opponent could choose to play another round and if he chose not to you could.

 

Fifth Sallies got He’Stan and his mere presence on the battlefield made all melta and flamers twin-linked!!!!!!! At that time twin-linked was a re-roll to hit for the melta, and re-roll wounds for flamers.

 

I didn’t play enough 6th to remember and none of 7th.

 

8th, their Chapter Tactic is meh. Their tactic can be replicated in part or full in other ways. Ignore ap -1, take Stealth. Each unit can re-roll one hit and one wound when it shoots or fights? You have Captains and Lieutenants supporting your army whether you castle or move up mitigating it’s use, you can also upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master for 2CPs to re-roll all to hits. Moving on to the Super Doctrine, two big issues, Primaris to this point only had limited flame-weapon options with no melta, and melta is in a terrible place right now. That one shot 24” range heavy option is kinda pitiful. Adrax, has some good abilities but he pays a lot for a Thunderhammer and has no mobility yo really use it. As for He’stan he’s limited.

 

With 9th edition I can see Sallies Successors coming out. Eradicators will love tactics like Hungry for Battle, Rapid Assault, or Long Range Marksman.

 

Edit: I also forgot, we’ve lost some of our Characters. We are one if the few factions to have Characters killed off.

Edited July 10, 2020 by CCE1981

[PiñaColada]

I think it's just that, historically, they haven't had much going for them really (remembering the bad old days with terrible initiative) and really just have been a smaller chapter of "vanilla marines". I feel like (at least before the SM 2.0 codex of 8th) all the marine armies I see are space wolves, UM or dark angels, but at least it means my army always sticks out.

We'll see how 9th treats them, they were easily one of the least powerful chapters in 8th but with some extra CP for the great strats and eradictors making great use of both the superdoctrine and master artisans they might become a lot more popular.

[Panzer]

It's the one chapter most like but few want to play because if you don't bring lots of melta and flamers it feels like there's not much point in playing Salamanders and if you do you take away a lot of list building freedom. At least that's how it was pre chapter tactics where the most of the chapter identity came from the colour scheme and the potential loadout decisions. On top of  that Salamanders were never particularly competetive so tournament players had no reason to build such an army.

 

Salamanders aren't alone with that though. Iron Hands, White Scars and even Imperial Fists for a long time have been in the same boat. It was always only when they got particularly good rules or such that we got to see more of those. Heck, even now after Iron Hands were pretty broken in the competetive scene for a short while there are barely threads in their subforum.

[Xenith]

Been a Sallies player in my local stores, GW Truro and Stockport. Their reroll stuff tactic this edition is pretty good. 

 

I think Green was just always hard to paint well, I did a couple of units of them when C:Armageddon came out and they were a nightmare.

 

I think GW also messed up bigly when they changed them from just having a black skin tone to being vantablack black with demonic red eyes. That's just weird. 

[Panzer]

Really? I never had any problems painting green whatsoever and I've painted many different shades of green over the years. Ork players should be able to say more about that though. :P

Red and yellow were the two notoriously difficult to paint colours since they covered like crap.

[Xenith]

Really? I never had any problems painting green whatsoever and I've painted many different shades of green over the years. Ork players should be able to say more about that though.

Red and yellow were the two notoriously difficult to paint colours since they covered like crap.

 

Maybe now. When I did them the old snot green had the same coverage as blood red and took 5 - 7 coats for an even cover, and the only highlight was a stark scorpion green. I guess they were just as much a pain to paint as everything else!

[Panzer]

I can't remember green covering this badly and a separate paint for highlighting? Unthinkable. Back then you had to mix everything on your own anyway. :D

[Mazer Rackham]

 

Maybe now. When I did them the old snot green had the same coverage as blood red and took 5 - 7 coats for an even cover, and the only highlight was a stark scorpion green. I guess they were just as much a pain to paint as everything else!

 

 

I can't remember green covering this badly and a separate paint for highlighting? Unthinkable. Back then you had to mix everything on your own anyway.

 

Xenith speaks truth! 

 

I had the Salamanders 2nd Company (all 120 of them!) at the end of 3rd Ed, onwards into 5th when I took a hiatus.  I scratch built drop-pods for them in 4th, when they got Cleanse and Purify.  Was the first time my local GW witnessed "Steehl Reehn".

 

The paint scheme was pretty basic, but had three layers of Snot Green followed by the Scorpion Green highlight.

 

Mixing colours?  Outrageous!  If it was good enough from the pot for the IA in White Dwarf, it was good enough for me!  And what's wrong with lots of flamers and melta? 

 

MR.

[HighMarshalAmp]

I had been hankering after a Salamanders army for years. Unfortunately, there were no 41st Millenium correct transfers or shoulder pads made.

It stopped me, idk if it stopped anyone else.

It was only this year when I decided that this was an obstacle I'd no longer put up with.

 

Now I've got a good 1000pts of green Oldmarines and counting.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I knew 3 back in 5th at my local gw. And by that I mean they had actual salamanders armies and didn't just use Vulcan hestan for melta vets.

 

I think it has to do with the fact that they're distinctly odd in terms of culture, but also "standard codex". You look at them and they're almost like the Wolves in terms of iconography and hides. But dragony instead of "Norse".

 

Their specialty is fire and melta, so anyone who's really into power armour, flamers and melta might like the sisters of battle more.

 

And I'll come right out and say it, the Onyx black skin colour is very uncomplimentary and jarring, especially when the kits have hair.

[Mazer Rackham]

And I'll come right out and say it, the Onyx black skin colour is very uncomplimentary and jarring, especially when the kits have hair.

 

Yeah, that got me as well.  I know it's old 2nd Ed fluff, but I didn't care for it, especially when the 3rd Ed IA artwork distinctly depicted them as black fellas.  Whenever I thought of my Sallies, I pictured Michael Clarke Duncan in The Green Mile.  Gentle, human, powerful and possessed of mighty determination to do the right thing.

 

But I think that's where this line of thought should be left.

 

*Paints fifth layer of snot green*

 

Funny, I never bought He'Stan or put him on the table.  I had Xavier.

 

MR.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Mazer Rackham

[TheNewman]

Yeah, Salamanders were kind of a sleeper chapter in 8th. Flamers and especially Melta weapons were in a bad place, their super doctrine only helps those weapons so it's 'polishing a turd', and their chapter tactic is kind of meh and also reproducable out of the Successor traits. It doesn't help that Geokenesis doesn't look all that good and the really intersting warlord traits aren't the ones that are going to draw the eye.

 

Basically the "first glance" stuff isn't where their strengths are.

 

Get past that though and you'll find thay between the strats, psychic discipline, and Warlord traits they can build some terrifying damage combos and protect their damage dealers better than most chapters. And 9th is going to make some of their favorite tools significantly better, although being able to stack up to a +3 to-wound is going away.

Edited July 10, 2020 by TheNewman

[Doghouse]

I think the problem with named chapters is that it is easier to do a generic diy chapter and then if you are into gaming just do whatever chapter gets the most advantages at that point. The few Salamander players I have known over the years though are extremely passionate about them.

[TheNewman]

I think the problem with named chapters is that it is easier to do a generic diy chapter and then if you are into gaming just do whatever chapter gets the most advantages at that point. The few Salamander players I have known over the years though are extremely passionate about them.

This is true, and it's a lot easier to say "I'm building a gunline today because it's better than melee this edition / I want to field unit X I just bought / my Assault units got cut to ribbons last time / I just feel like it ok?, now which chapter best supports the units I want to include..." if your army is always Original Chapter Do Not Steal.

 

Personally I almost always play an Inheritors of the Primarch White Scars successor because I get fewer dirty looks that way.

Edited July 10, 2020 by TheNewman

[Bung]

I played Sallies in third Edition as my first Marine army.

They had some unique stuff and the fluff was some mix of black smith and firefighter which i still like.

Ended with 4th Edition when everyone and their dog started playing Salamander Rules for taking 2 special weapons in tactical squads.

Started to play Black Templar when their füll Codec droped.

[BrainFireBob]

I also liked Sallies. But my DIY was blue and started before Armageddon, and when it came time for a green army I hemmed and hawwed and finally went Dark Angels, because I have a Terminator problem

[Kierdale]

I’ve always found them attractive but the green not being a Base Paint has always put me off, really. In the past I don’t remember there being easily available decals (are there now?).

I’d be keen to do a Kill Team though.

[Lucerne]

Their lore has been routinely shafted, even when they were given novel attention in the Heresy.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Their lore has been routinely shafted, even when they were given novel attention in the Heresy.

I mean, ever since Kyme got his hands on them, it’d been incredibly unclear how many Companies they had, and in what configuration. They even gave conflicting information inside the same book, once. It’s only the Supplement that finally clarified it.

 

...at least until the next Codex comes, and probably screws it up again.

[Indefragable]

 

And I'll come right out and say it, the Onyx black skin colour is very uncomplimentary and jarring, especially when the kits have hair.

 

Yeah, that got me as well.  I know it's old 2nd Ed fluff, but I didn't care for it, especially when the 3rd Ed IA artwork distinctly depicted them as black fellas.  Whenever I thought of my Sallies, I pictured Michael Clarke Duncan in The Green Mile.  Gentle, human, powerful and possessed of mighty determination to do the right thing.

 

But I think that's where this line of thought should be left.

 

*Paints fifth layer of snot green*

 

Funny, I never bought He'Stan or put him on the table.  I had Xavier.

 

MR.

 

Michael Clarke Duncan....perfect! There’s your casting for Vulkan. Boom!

 

********

 

There are 2.5 Salamanders players at my local club. One of him has Sallies as his second ad,y, fwiw. The 1/2 player plays a blend of Space Wolves and Salamanders....”A Song of Ice and Fire” he calls it. And the last guy (who’s become a good friend) chose Sallies in part b/c no one really plays them. Hipster lol. But also b/c to him they are the closest things to good guys in the Grimdark setting. 

 

My own thoughts on why they don’t feature more:

 

A. They lack personality on the tabletop. 

Now...that snot quite true, but I phrase it so harshly because I think that’s the common perception. People think they’re just “the ones with flamers”.....and GW has not helped them in that department for the most part. 

 

B. Lack of synergy.

This is a bit silly since in many ways, their 8th Ed Cat (free re-rolls) synergies with everything. But we all know the tournament scene drives the game at the moment (for better and worse) and Sallies lack those triple and quadruple, level stacking combo moves...the BA Smash Captain that eats 14CP in a single phase...the infiltrating RG Centuriions that are still -1 To Hit and can target characters*...the literally unkillable IH Dreadnought.....etc... That’s not to say every faction should have those (or that they are healthy for the game) and they have been FAQ’d, but if you were to even design a Sallie super combo like that...what would it be? What would that even look like from a conceptual standpoint?

 

C. Buffs to specific weapons that they actually can’t take a lot of.

As a BA player, I used to tell my Sallie friend that I wish I could give him my take Heavy Flamers in Tactical squads. If felt weird that my BA could do that and his Salamanders could not. Likewise, BA get hand flamers and inferno pistols everywhere for their own reasons. But if Sal could do the same, then I think they would be more appealing. What’s the typical way to play 40k? Go over the top with it! So if your not is meltas and flamers...it’s disencouraging when you realize how few units can actually do that (in 7th Sternguard were the only infantry unit that could take heavy flamers). Compare to IF a buff to bolters...yea bolters aren’t the sexiest thing out there, but 95% of your army has them so it’s still useful.

 

D. Vulkan’s Greatest Hits

(or lack thereof). Name a piece of lore, especially recent lore, that has the Salamanders doing cool stuff. Go ahead and think about it. I’ll wait. I brought a book while I wait for you to find something. The RG and WS at least got some interesting screen time during the whole 7th Ed Kauyon/Mont’ka supplement thing. Pretty much every other chapter has at least a few cool bits to hang their hat on. But what about the Salamanders? The only thing that comes to mind for me is the story of Vect luring a Salamanders strike cruiser into Commoragh as part of some Vectian plot to distract his political rivals. And while it’s an epic fight, almost all of the terminator-clad 1st Company are lost buying time for the vessel to break free. It’s cool, but it’s kind of a Pyrrhic victory and I think it was told from the Dark Eldar perspective. And I don’t even know if it’s canon or where I read it, tbh. Most of their HH portrayals don’t have them as incredibly compelling either.

 

E. Actual physical depiction 

As others have pointed out, his is a huge misstep on GW’s part in my mind. Not to get into anything racial in this moment in time, but I think they goofed by making them “coal black with red eyes” rather than just black skinned. All the more so since other then the WS, maybe the TS, and at one point the DA, they are the only racially distinct chapters of the First Founding, If there was more variety in that department overall, then their design decision wouldn’t be as bad. Now I don’t want to judge the past by today’s standards, but anyway you cut it, it’s odd.