Primark G vs PriMarneus

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Pros for Marneus:

 

Less points (not including Lieutenant tax)

Can ride in Repulsor or Executioner)*

Can pass through certain terrain during movement

Can be healed

 

Pros for Roboute:

 

More aura buffs

Almost every stat (W-S-T etc.) - 8” movement is much better; 3++

Better wargear

Far better melee

More CP refunded

50% to resurrect

Can screen other characters

 

* circumstantial

 

The Primarch is exponentially better in melee and much more resilient as well.

[Ishagu]

Is Guilliman better than Calgar, a Lieutenant and 3 Eradicators?

 

I can get those 3 units for the same cost (15 points more than Guilliman)

 

And Calgar + a Lieutenant will unlock a Battalion too, saving me a lot of points for other powerful units.

 

Calgar also has a far more useful Warlord Trait. Guilliman's was nerfed heavily because Heroic Intervention does not keep you from getting attacked in 9th.

 

So I would say:

 

Calgar

-Much Cheaper

-Better Warlord Trait

-Can enter transport

-Unlocks detachments more easily

-Can go into ruins/pass through terrain

-Can be healed

-Actually more durable in certain situations due to halving damage

[Lemondish]

This is all true.

 

But the comparison is missing the points costs. While these are spot on and insightful, I'm personally not sure yet if the premium for the G-man is worth it.

 

I definitely need to face him a few times in 9th to get the proper insight to make that decision myself, though. I'm always a little overly critical about my own units until I get the experience of facing them. That's when I learn the most.

 

In which case, I hope to see folks exploring both on the table!

 

I want Tor to punch him.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Lemondish

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Eradictors will be good versus specific builds against others will struggle to make their points back.

 

I’d say Roboute is roughly 80-100 points more than Calgar now when you include the Lt tax.b

Edited July 13, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

Sure, you can swap them out for any number of units with a similar cost in the comparison. How about a twin Las cannon Razorback, or 3 Aggressors, etc?

 

No question that Guilliman is better than Calgar, but he carries a much higher cost too. Are we paying too much for the improvement?

 

At 300 he would be competitive for sure.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You didn’t include the cost of the Lt... you are very selective how you compare points from post to post and not consistent. Edited July 13, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

You didn’t cost of the Lt... you very selective how you compare points from post to post and not consistent.

A regular LT is 65 points. It's what I used to replicate the aura rules.

 

Calgar + LT + 3 Eradicators is 395

Edited July 13, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

But it does not replicate all of the Primarch’s auras.

[Ishagu]

No, it replicates the most important ones. I can make my own custom Chapter Master who has a 9" re roll hits aura for example. That's better than a 12" re roll 1s aura, and will save even more points.

 

There's all sorts of comparisons that can be made that bring the point cost into question.

 

It's not even an issue of cost necessarily. When you play the missions you'll discover that you characters can't break away from their close knit protection. It makes it much harder to get use out of their close combat power, so it brings into question whether super expensive cc characters can ever be truly viable. More play needed for now either case.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

But your paying CP and losing CP for a poor man’s clone though. I will take my three bonus CP, 6” reroll everything aura and 12” reroll 1s which now that AofI are a thing again is much better than 9”. Edited July 13, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

Yeah but even if I spend 2 CP to upgrade a hero I'll still have 15CP in a 5 turn game, not to mention the ones I get back from Adept of the Codex. Probably 20 total.

 

It's all relative. Guilliman + 2 HQs is over 500 points, closer to 600 if you run Tiggy and a Chaplain, for example. Your army is very small if you're running a Battalion as a result.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I will still have more CP and let’s not forget +1” to charges aura.

[Ishagu]

If Ultras were primarily a CC army that rule would have more value. For us it's strictly situational.

It's a good tool in the chest, but not one I always use.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The way I play Ultramarines they absolutely rawk in melee often with the best of them. Remember ninth is not a meleecentric edition.

[Ishagu]

I didn't find that in the games I played, I feel the balance is still in favour of shooting - but that could depend on the armies.

 

For example, my AdMech are not worried about melee in the slightest now. I won't even need to do much screening unless the unit that's about to Assault is truly monstrous.

 

Lots of the best Assault units were large squads like Stealers and Orks - both nerfed now due to engagement ranges, blast weapons and point hikes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I select a lot of units that are good shooting and fist bumping. One example is Cataprachti terminators whom are actually going down in points. I always eschewed asscents knowing they would go way up in points - the classic GW shell game within a game. My Intercessor sergeants have hammers and let me tell you they are extremely dangerous too. Calgar cannot even come close to Guilliman’s damage output... like I said it’s exponential.

[emperorpants]

The fact that Calgar can enter terrain (getting cover bonuses) and charge through terrain shouldn't be underestimated. All of Guilliman's might won't matter if it doesn't get brought to bear much. Yes, he will kill most things he attacks, but it's easier to actually get to attack in a safer manner with Calgar.

 

Calgar was considered the more competitive choice before 9th, and now with Guilliman at 380 with less units around him to buff and his res ability nerfed due to command re roll changes, that likely won't change.

 

Is Guilliman bad? No. Just not as competitive a choice as Calgar.

 

Calgar:

-takes half damage

-can ride vehicles

-enter and charge through terrain

-costs less

-will get you more cp due to his warlord trait

-is an hq

-can replicate Guillimans best aura with a LT.

-has good melee, even if it isn't as good as Guilliman's

-is easier to hide

-can be healed

-can take Victrix guard without using a slot, which will be more important this edition

-has 8 wounds, which is only 1 less than Guilliman

 

Guilliman:

-has better melee by a good amount

-has a 3+ invuln

-has a 12 inch re roll aura of 1s and adds an inch to charges and advances which can't be replicated.

-has the chapter master and Lt. Aura wrapped into one unit

-can shoot into combat

 

Imo, Calgar is a more competitive choice, especially when points are considered, especially with smaller armies now.

 

Again, Guilliman isn't bad. Just not as good as the Calgar +Lt combo.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t think you have even played Guilliman based on what you said. If we throw points out the window there is no comparison. Guilliman can shut down an entire flank on his lonesome against pretty much anything. Calgar could never do it. Your points are reflective and rely upon circumstantial situations which you weight much too heavily.

[emperorpants]

I don’t think you have even played Guilliman based on what you said. If we throw points out the window there is no comparison. Guilliman can shut down an entire flank on his lonesome against pretty much anything. Calgar could never do it. Your points are reflective and rely upon circumstantial situations which you weight much too heavily.

That's ironic, because your points make me think the same about you my man. Especially the part about throwing points out the window. OF COURSE Guilliman would be better if we throw out the very mechanic that GW uses to balance units. Are you serious with that? Honestly? Going by that logic every large overcosted unit in the game is the best unit possible. OF COURSE units with stronger rules will always be the best if we don't take points into account. The thing is, we HAVE to take points into account.

 

Guilliman can shut down a whole flank? By himself? Sure, unless they have mortal wounds. Or shoot him off the table, which isn't that hard. He NEEDS his character protection my man. If he didn't have it he'd die instantly every game. It's statements like that that make it seem like you don't play competitive much, no offense.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

No throwing points out the window is important because your whole cringefest is based on it. Sure points are a thing but you can’t just sweep all the great things Roboute can do under the carpet to win an argument. There are things he brings to the table that are superlative and you have no apprecition. If have played both often competively against some great players. Guilliman is like the fourth dimension. Calgar is good but nowhere even close as it should be.

[emperorpants]

No throwing points out the window is important because your whole cringefest is based on it. Sure points are a thing but you can’t just sweep all the great things Roboute can do under the carpet to win an argument. There are things he brings to the table that are superlative and you have no apprecition. If have played both often competively against some great players. Guilliman is like the fourth dimension. Calgar is good but nowhere even close as it should be.

.....what? What did I sweep under the rug? I mentioned several advantages to Guilliman that no one here mentioned yet, and made a list of advantages he has over Calgar....you keep talking in generalities without addressing anything specifically that I've said. That speaks to you being unable to address my points. What is incorrect about my lists of advantages to each? Maybe you should address that instead of being aggressive.

 

The thing is, points matter and although Guilliman has things that are awesome about him they don't outweigh Calgar costing less plus his own benefits that YOU keep sweeping under the rug. See, i keep addressing your points specifically and I refute them. You have failed to do that. You just keep getting aggressive and call things cringefests instead of addressing points. Calgar plus an Lt. Are widely considered to be a more competitive choice. I've played competitive with both. Calgar is more flexible and allows for more units in an army to be buffed. That will be even more true in 9th.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You said that points is what matters most bottom line to which I disagree. As I’ve pointed out Calgar provides less buffs than Roboute, is less survivable and has nowhere near the level of damage output in melee. If it was a difference in points of say 200+ maybe you’d have a point.

[emperorpants]

No throwing points out the window is important because your whole cringefest is based on it. Sure points are a thing but you can’t just sweep all the great things Roboute can do under the carpet to win an argument. There are things he brings to the table that are superlative and you have no apprecition. If have played both often competively against some great players. Guilliman is like the fourth dimension. Calgar is good but nowhere even close as it should be.

Also, attacking my argument because it's based on points? You know what else is based on points? The entire game.

[emperorpants]

You said that points is what matters most bottom line to which I disagree. As I’ve pointed out Calgar provides less buffs than Roboute, is less survivable and has nowhere near the level of damage output in melee. If it was a difference in points of say 200+ maybe you’d have a point.

Actually, I said points difference in addition to Calgars other benefits outweighs Guillimans benefits. It's literally in the post above yours. I also pointed out Guillimans increased buffs too in my 1st post that listed his advantages. So why Is my first post so terrible when you just made several of the same points I made? Strange.

 

Is Calgar less survivable though? He halves damage, can be healed, and can hide better and take advantage of terrain better for buffs to his saves. Guillimans res ability is a 50 percent chance with no re roll anymore. Guilliman has only one more wound. His biggest advantage, which admittedly is a big one, is his 3+ invuln.

 

So it's somewhat debatable that Guilliman actually is more durable, and even if he is, it's not by enough of a margin to make him better when you consider Calgars other benefits.

 

9th is still more shooty than melee orientated. So being great instead of good at melee is a nice little perk, but hardly game changing.

 

Also, the buff that can't be replicated is situational. Ultras aren't hurting for ways to get re roll 1s.

 

Also, thank you for engaging in discussion instead of being aggressive towards me.

Edited July 14, 2020 by emperorpants

[Paulinus]

I’m still up the air about the comparison.

 

What we don’t fully know yet is how each of them will get us points. This edition is all about durability and getting the objectives. I would argue that Calgar with an apothecary and a couple of Victrix honour guard is an absolute piece of of immovable mountain.

 

half damage, wound hand off and healing.

 

I think that Gman is a nice all in one unit. I can see him supporting a flanking unit or just smash facing whatever.

 

Remember that we are a dominate the mid field type of army. Getting Gman or Calgar there or to affect that space isn’t hard.

 

The question I think we really need to look at is which one of the two are more efficient at getting or assisting in getting our primary and our secondaries.

 

This will come with some testing.