Primark G vs PriMarneus

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m wondering if Victrix Guard are worth it them only being a two man squad. I’m considering dropping them now.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm waiting to play some test games and see the whole picture in the rules etc, but I'm thinking the sheer amount of movement speed from Guilliman over Calgar will make him much more useful.

 

Calgar can't get around the table as easily to boost his troops, whereas Guilliman can go to whatever objective needs attention or part of the battlefield. What's more, the Lieutenant has to follow him around as well to provide the same rerolls to Ultramarines within 6".

 

Remember Guilliman can provide his army benefits from 12" away as well.

 

Additionally, the changes to Look Out, Sir! will likely see that poor Lieutenant dead fairly quickly if he's on the frontline with Calgar, trying to win objectives.

 

A fairly large problem is actually the limited HQ slots for a Battalion. Calgar and the Lieutenant right now take up 2 of them, whereas with Guilliman you can use those slots for other choices for your army. That means if you want a Librarian, Techmarine or Chaplain in your Battalion, you'll need to pay more CP for another Detachment with an army led by Calgar.

 

Is Calgar more survivable? Well, if you take Victrix Guard, an Apothecary and a transport for them to actually get to where they need to be, is Guilliman still more expensive? He actually becomes the discount option!

 

In summary my position is; if you want a mobile force and have plenty of attacking elements as well as speed, you'll want Guilliman. As an example, with a unit of Vanguard and their jump packs, Outriders and a couple transport borne infantry squads, Guilliman can keep up and contribute to their hitting power.

 

With a more static, shooting oriented list, Calgar is your choice because you're paying for a combat prowass you likely won't use as much. It doesn't mean Calgar won't get into combat, or you have to not move, but you'll be more steady in your approach and have less speed available. You'll also not want to spread out as much.

[Ishagu]

Just played against Ultras using my AdMech.

Guilliman was down on turn 2 and didn't resurrect.

 

Characters are much more vulnerable, so limit yourself to 2 at most. Particularly in an elite army like Astartes - screening fades fast. Terrain is more important now then ever.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

It's a bit early to limit yourself to 2 characters.

 

I can't comment much on your game, but with obscuring terrain and enough models nearby, I think it is a very unusual situation to have Guilliman dead by turn 2. Must have been some rotten luck for you.

 

I've been mulling it over for few days actually - army composition with a view to protect characters, having enough models around the table for scoring points and board control, looks likely to me that a decent sized number of troops is in order.

 

Though a single vehicle can protect a character also.

[Ishagu]

You have to chase the mission.

 

Because of how scoring works if you miss a turn or two of objectives you can never catch up.

The player in question had to assault some of my units, and the second he broke away with Guilliman the Primarch was going down. One round of shooting from a 6 strong squad of Kataphron Destroyers.

 

This is the reality of 9th. We actually played with lots of terrain but Monster or vehicles units are limited to where they can move around, making it easier to trap them.

 

I should mention the Marine player actually won the game on objectives, precisely because he chased them, but we both walked away from the game with conformation in our mind that he is far too expensive.

 

We actually played with so much terrain that my Kastellan Robots did not have a target to shoot at until turn 4. I even had a Manipulus with them to increase their range.

We went far above and beyond what 99% of players will field in terms of terrain and it actually benefitted the Astartes over my AdMech to a significant extent - hence he was ultimately victorious. I also forgot to bring in a key unit from reserves on turn 3 and that was the main reason I couldn't secure the win.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have to play some more games with him but losing him on turn 2 sounds like mistakes were made.

 

I’m very interested to see both full army lists.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

Sure, here are the lists:

Marines:
-Guilliman
-Smash Captain with Jump Pack
-Lieutenant
-10 Intercessors
-10 Intercessors
-5 Infiltrators
-6 Aggressors
-3 Eliminators
-3 Eliminators
-5 Vanguard Vets with TH/SS
-5 Hellblasters
-Impuslor

Mechanicus:
-Cawl
-Manipulus
-Datasmith
-10 Skitarii Vanguard
-10 Skitarii Vanguard
-5 Rangers with 2 Snipers
-5 Rangers with 2 Snipers
-6 Kataphron Destroyers
-4 Kastellan Robots
-10 Infiltrators (forgot to bring them in on turn 3)
-Scorpius Disintegrator
-Scorpius Disintegrator



Here is the terrain:





Some of my AdMech after turn 1:

Edited July 15, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

Looking at his list, it doesn't have enough speed in the units to protect Guilliman. The Intercessors are on foot and everything else in small squads easy to reduce.

 

A static list like your opponent's is going to get left behind by Guilliman.

 

He's spent a lot of points in Troops yet they can only march up the table towards the guns of a shooting army. His list overall has no teeth and of course would die easy.

 

I've said it plenty of times before, but spending all your points on S4 shooting with Primaris will mean you lose competitiveness. This edition is going to be the same.

 

So I don't think his list should have included Guilliman because it couldn't operate with him. Like including a Dragon in a High Elf Fantasy army, you need to think carefully about how the list will support the Dragon and the dragon in turn support the list.

[Ishagu]

Not at all. I'm not sure how you reached any of those conclusions after seeing the list or the terrain on that table. He has multiple units that deploy outside of the deployment zone that can also easily hide, and the tables are 25% smaller in the first place. Not to mention his fast moving, flying units on top.

Guilliman was the slowest thing about that list because he had to walk around every ruin, whilst the infantry could walk trough it!

 

Everything was basically in rapid fire range after 1 turn, but couldn't actually get a view to fire due to the new terrain rules.

 

Also with the new missions the objectives are static, in the particular mission we played (Mission 6) all of the objectives were claimed after 1 turn.

 

Also he WON the game. This was not an amateur player who makes obvious mistakes. We were testing out the various units in the most tactical ways possible and this was already his 6th game playing 9th edition. That's more experience with the new edition than most. He actually built that list with 9th in mind - multiple MSU squads with indirect fire shooting or dynamic deployment that function with the new terrain and cover rules in mind.

 

 

Edit:

 

And now we go full circle in what I originally said. You pay massive points for Guilliman's CC capabilities. If you take a few hard hitting units like Repulsors alongside him you end up sacrificing all the units and bodies in the list - you lose board control. This is a holding objective game now with secondaries around board control. You can't achieve that if you spend 600+ points on 3 characters and a further 720 points on two large tanks. You're left with a minimal army. The ITC style secondary objectives often force you to hold different table quarters and to disperse your units. You can't put 1100 points into one unit and his defence.

 

This is why we both agreed that the Primarch is grossly over-costed. Heck, you can argue that Calgar is also too expensive now. The best way to play might be with cheaper, custom heroes in the 100 point range. Instead of Guilliman I could be running 9 Eradicators that offer me 18 Str 8 Ap-4 D6 damage shots, that can travel through ruins, run and shoot, and occupy 3 different places on the table.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

He won the game despite losing Guilliman, which means Guilliman soaked all the fire.

 

His list is average. Against your gunline he didn't get shot off the table? Thank the Emperor for obscuring terrain this edition eh. His list was far from optimised. He had a Lieutenant and Captain alongside Guilliman (Smash Captains are Okay but vulnerable in 9th and I think will decline).

 

Just because he won doesnt mean he used Guilliman correctly or had a list that was optimised.

 

I can't talk to player skill, I don't know you or him. I do know that your forgetting to bring on reserves by turn 3 is a big mistake for an experienced player eh.

 

I don't think you can say Guilliman is overpriced after a single game either, especially as he was used in an army with a single unit trying to get into close combat alongside him.

 

As I've said, Guilliman is an assault force multiplier. I've been saying in for a while in this forum if you take a static, shooting list then Guilliman won't be doing what he needs to do to be worth while.

 

As for Guilliman having to walk around ruins... well yes that could be a problem, but then if he's hiding behind the ruin he isn't being shot. That's the point. Guilliman was exposed turn 2, which means he failed to use him correctly or build an army that could protect him.

 

***

 

Yeah, go ahead and take 3 units of Eradicators instead of Guilliman. They'll die much quicker to assaults and you've spent all your Heavy Slots.

[Ishagu]

Guilliman did not soak all the fire lol, He was removed in one turn by a unit that cost close to half his points.

I made a crippling mistake that lost me the game on turn 3 by forgetting to bring in key reserves needed to capture objectives - I've already said this.

 

I'm also not saying he was overpriced after a single game. I'm saying he is overpriced after multiple games against multiple factions. He has great abilities and he scares opponent from getting close which is as useful as anything, but you pay a lot for that.

 

 

He used him precisely as you outline above, but it's very easy to remove a few key units guarding characters. In 8th he still would have been fine as he wasn't the closest unit to my army. You can't commit large portions of your army to guard a 380 point character because you give up board control as a result.

Also the Eradicators won't die much quicker at all. The new rules for ruins are very good at protecting infantry units.

 

Tell me, how many games of 9th have you played? You seem to entirely dismiss conclusions based on the feedback of two people who have 9 games between them.

But we should also be fair, so if Guilliman is in a major event tournament winning list prior to the next Codex (rules might change with a new book) I'll concede that we must have clearly played him wrong.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

I try to take advice based on a player's personality, likes and dislikes, preferences etc. I take your advice with a pinch of salt because although you don't play like me. You're a good player and very knowledgeable but you don't have the same style or even units I take for your position on a unit to be as accurate as I need for my own intents.

 

So I take what you've said, enjoyed reading it and engage with you on things my experience doesn't match with.

 

Should I really just accept your experience without question? ;) Turning it on its head, I think you've disputed much of what I've said in the past yet my experiences are just as valid.

[Ishagu]

That's fair enough.

 

Moving beyond this one unit in particular, I don't think the secondaries are particularly well balanced - some are much easier to score than others. The missions are also very, very similar. I'm not particularly impressed with 9th, even if I accept and get on board with the Nova/ITC style missions. The terrain is definitely better, and I will actually play with less on the table as it can really shut down a lot of interaction if you have too much.

 

Play-testers have said that we've only seen about 30% of how the game will play. I assume they are talking about new missions and secondaries coming in Chapter Approved so I can't judge it fully yet.

 

My general findings are that the character rule in heavily nerfed, and I would caution against putting a lot of points into anything that is only viable because of it. This applies to Guilliman, Abaddon, Calgar, etc. Guilliman is particularly painful because of that astronomical point cost.

[Captain Idaho]

I think the learning curve for me will be quite high for Secondaries. Looking forward to trying them but man as both my style and that of Ultramarines in general is combined arms so the right Secondaries might not be clear until you've seen your opponent. (Should be the case but some armies lean towards certain styles first)

 

Can you give us some details on what Secondaries you and your opponent's are playing with? What sort of Secondaries you chose for which builds against which opponent etc?

 

Yes I think Characters will dictate the style of army not from what they bring to the table but just the need to protect them.

[Ishagu]

I was using the one where you score 2 points for having units in 3 table quarters, and 3 points if you have units in all 4 - it's called Engage on all Fronts.

 

First Strike - This one should only be chosen if you feel you can score it, deal more damage, or if you think the opponent won't give anything else up.

 

Assassinate - score 3vp for each character, again - very situational. I achieved the 9 points I could score by removing all 3 characters from my opponent's army.

 

 

Engage on all Fronts is the most picked and most reliable from what I've seen. Go for that. It's easy to score but hard to max out.

 

The other two are very much dependant on the table and opposing army.

Line breaker is very difficult to achieve or max out, I feel that if you're able to score this turn after turn then you've already won.

 

The mission specific ones are often worthwhile as well, they usually involve performing actions so it's best if you have msu units that you don't mind skipping phases.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The smurf list seems unoptimized... Hellblasters are the only AT unit. I think all infantry lists are a relic now. Armor is much more important than maxxing boots on the ground. Two to three Impulsors with shield dome would be great for Smurfs. Thanks for sharing the lists and pix. Edited July 15, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

More would have been great, but there were no more available points.

 

I should mention that my opponent built a list to strictly play the new missions ahead of killing units.

His anti tank were the flying Vanguard, Guilliman, Aggressors in combat and the Hellblasters.

 

With the new terrain rules you can avoid a lot of the firepower if you play smart - remember I didn't fire my Kastellan Robots until turn 4!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I heard the missions we have seen account for 30% of the total amount.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Discuss...

 

[Ishagu]

Just confirms what I've been saying. The unit is strictly casual play only.

 

It's a significant nerf, as I mentioned in the other topic.

 

Let's hope we get a new codex soon. I'm sure the balance will be addressed in a new book, but until then I have absolutely no intention to handicap the armies I play.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lol it’s nerf but he’s still viable. I posted on some FB groups - the consensus is there is not enough info to determine if he is still viable and some are looking forward to giving him a go.

[Ishagu]

Look if you want to play the unit go right ahead. I've already done so.

 

He's not competitive. The army is simply too small when you're spending 600 points on 3 characters.

[Toxichobbit]

I think I'm going to try him out before coming to any conclusions. I'm most bothered about his movement restrictions. With the way ruins have changed it's gone from not being able to move through walls to not being able to move into areas of the board at all*. That's a pretty big worry.

 

I'm not convined by Calgar either, though again I want to give him a good go before making up my mind. From everything I've seen so far of 9th, my initial thinking is that I'll probably go down the route of cheap custom characters.

 

* depending upon how your ruins are modelled, of course.

[Ishagu]

Yeah I think cheap, custom heroes are definitely the best way to run a chapter now.

 

And yeah, 210 points is pushing it for Calgar too imo, but at least he's a HQ and a single extra Lieutenant unlock the Battalion.

 

Calgar, the fancy new Primaris Lieutenant and a Primaris Chaplain are 370 points combined. I think can work with that pretty well.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Like no one is saying dreads are unplayable though