Space Marine chapters that can shoot and melee equally well

[Flesh Creature]

Hello all!

 

For context, my main army is Blood Angels and I enjoy their playstyle very much. However, if I were someday build a second SM army, I'd prefer them to be more versatile. My assumption would be either Dark Angels or shudder Ultramarines, possibly White Scars? Raven Guard?

 

Appreciate any insight!

[Paulinus]

I play Ultramarines, Deathwatch and Flesh Tearers (BA successor).

 

Ultramarines are probably your most versatile style.

 

Shooting: Plenty of shooting buffs and rerolls and special characters that help that.

 

Melee: surprisingly good at that as well. Once again relics and buffs for that. Our unique standard gives us +1 attack for example.

 

Not sure how it will work in 9th, but the Victrix detachment from Vigilus gives us one of the best melee strats in the game for certain units. Vanguard vets being one of them get to “strike first First for Ultramar”. Basically let’s you fight before the fight fight phase. Potentially you could fight 3x in your turn.

 

Another strat is fall back and re engage. Fall back from melee, shoot and charge again. Really good for 9th.

 

Plenty of synergy between shooting and melee which is what I like in our army.

 

Master of none but good at all of it.

[chapter master 454]

I mean, Paulinus has got the most of it there. You want THE definition of jack, then ultramarines are it. 

 

From my experience, Raven Guard are also decent all rounders. They tend to prefer melee but it doesn't stop them being good shooters and often they work both together with their various mobility tools. They aren't a gunline army though, they do want to get moving and fight from a closer range but they can slug it out in both range and melee along with having some fun traits to play with to support your army not to mention that their ability to pressure characters is pretty terrifying. While expensive, stratagem stalker Intercessors are hitting on 2s and wounding most HQs on 3+ or better really, or that same benefit can actually make enemy characters think twice about engaging you at close quarters (again, hitting on 2s and wounding a lot of characters on 3+ at that point).

 

They also do have a good mix of melee and ranged relics. Their psychic tree is also not too bad considering.

 

Also, are you going pure chapter or making a custom chapter? That can affect what you want to do.

[Gederas]

Yes, Dark Angels are actually probably the best "Jack of All Trades" Marine army outside of Ultramarines when it comes to shooting and melee.

 

They lose access to some of the Marine armour (Centurions are the biggest.... despite them being used by Dark Angels in the fluff). Grim Resolve is an excellent Chapter Tactic for shooting, as it frees up you from needing Masters as much as other chapters. However, all of their melee bonuses are from physic powers, stratagems and characters.

 

But hoo boy, what the ones have are tasty.

 

If you want to make a force of Dark Angels no slouches in melee, Asmodai is the key. Exemplar of Hate gives +1 attack to all Dark Angels Infantry and Biker units within 6" of him. Additionally, if you want more melee: Make that lunatic your Warlord, as he has the Warlord Trait, Fury of the Lion. Which is "Any time your Warlord charges, was charged, or performed a heroic intervention this turn, friendly Dark Angels within 6" add 1 to their strength for that fight phase." +1 Attack and Strength? Yeah... That's gonna be a deathball that's deadly.

 

Righteous Repugnance is probably the force multiplier for melee in the Dark Angels list for Psychic powers. Re-roll all failed hits and wounds in melee? Yes please!

 

If you're facing Chaos Marines, you've also got the stratagems Never Forgive, Never Forget and Fury of the First, which will ruin their day in melee. If you combine the two well.... How's exploding hits against Chaos Marines on 5+s sound?

 

 

Not sure how it will work in 9th, but the Victrix detachment from Vigilus gives us one of the best melee strats in the game for certain units. Vanguard vets being one of them get to “strike first First for Ultramar”. Basically let’s you fight before the fight fight phase. Potentially you could fight 3x in your turn.it.

Well, since meta sheep blindly follow rules for Tournament Matched play, Victrix detachment is gone, as all of the Vigilus Specialist detachments aren't allowed in tournaments.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Gederas

[templargdt]

Yes, Dark Angels are actually probably the best "Jack of All Trades" Marine army outside of Ultramarines when it comes to shooting and melee.

 

They lose access to some of the Marine armour (Centurions are the biggest.... despite them being used by Dark Angels in the fluff). Grim Resolve is an excellent Chapter Tactic for shooting, as it frees up you from needing Masters as much as other chapters. However, all of their melee bonuses are from physic powers, stratagems and characters.

 

But hoo boy, what the ones have are tasty.

 

If you want to make a force of Dark Angels no slouches in melee, Asmodai is the key. Exemplar of Hate gives +1 attack to all Dark Angels Infantry and Biker units within 6" of him. Additionally, if you want more melee: Make that lunatic your Warlord, as he has the Warlord Trait, Fury of the Lion. Which is "Any time your Warlord charges, was charged, or performed a heroic intervention this turn, friendly Dark Angels within 6" add 1 to their strength for that fight phase." +1 Attack and Strength? Yeah... That's gonna be a deathball that's deadly.

 

Righteous Repugnance is probably the force multiplier for melee in the Dark Angels list for Psychic powers. Re-roll all failed hits and wounds in melee? Yes please!

 

If you're facing Chaos Marines, you've also got the stratagems Never Forgive, Never Forget and Fury of the First, which will ruin their day in melee. If you combine the two well.... How's exploding hits against Chaos Marines on 5+s sound?

 

 

Not sure how it will work in 9th, but the Victrix detachment from Vigilus gives us one of the best melee strats in the game for certain units. Vanguard vets being one of them get to “strike first First for Ultramar”. Basically let’s you fight before the fight fight phase. Potentially you could fight 3x in your turn.it.

Well, since meta sheep blindly follow rules for Tournament Matched play, Victrix detachment is gone, as all of the Vigilus Specialist detachments aren't allowed in tournaments.

You also have Azrael who gives you Chapter Master rerolls, 1 extra CP, and oh by the way a 4++ aura for Infantry and Bikers.  

[Dracos]

Yes by all means, Raven Guard. Nothing to see here, move along ;)

[Flesh Creature]

Also, are you going pure chapter or making a custom chapter? That can affect what you want to do.

I struggle with indecisiveness so I know a custom chapter would probably be the right call in the long run.

[Minsc]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Salamanders. 
Their chapter tactics work with both shooting and in melee, and when both when being shot at and hit in melee. 

Shooty units with heavy weapons (especially MSU) benefit from the rerolls, and even the humble sgt. (with a thunderhammer of course) becomes potent in combat with some rerolls. 
Ignoring AP1 is a boon both when the enemy shoots at you, and when he tries to claw at you in close combat.

In addition to the stratagems in the SM-codex, their supplement also boosts them with some additional good ones, several which work really well for units in close combat.
They also have relics and warlords traits that can boost both the characters combat prowess, shooting capabilities or a librarians psychic potential.

I know the Smash-Captain(?) is all the rage, so let me instead introduce you to the Salamander Anvil-Captain;
- Captain on Bike with Stormshield
- The Salamanders Mantle (relic)
- Forge Master (WL-trait),
- Miraculous Constitution (WL-trait*)
- Thunder Hammer (of course).

You now have a Captain with a 3++, Toughness 7, -1 to wound against him, 6 Wounds, 6+ "FNP" and who recovers 1 wound at the start of your movement phases.
You can also with a Salamander-specific psychic power give him T8 should you wish it. In addition to this it's still a Salamander Captain with a Thunder Hammer and Master Artisans for that re-roll to hit and to wound. 
And if he should die, you have a 50% chance to bring him back with their Rise from the Ashes-stratagem.
(*He can have two traits due to the Salamander Stratagem Exemplar of the Promethean Creed. And if you wish you can always swap this trait for Anvil of Strength for +2 Str instead of 6+ FNP and regaining a wound in the movement phase.)

And then there's their whole melta/flamer-schtick (further amplified by Vulkan and the Tactical Doctrine), but the fact is that you don't necessarily even need flamers or meltas to make Salamanders work well.

In all my years of 40k, I've always been a bigger fan of engaging the enemy in close combat, rather than shooting them of the table, and my Salamanders, while not being the close combat-chapter, has never made me felt powerless in the assault phase.  

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Minsc

[Charlo]

Not to mention they get the +1 to Wound strat. Which is utterly BONKERS.

[chapter master 454]

 

Also, are you going pure chapter or making a custom chapter? That can affect what you want to do.

I struggle with indecisiveness so I know a custom chapter would probably be the right call in the long run.

 

 

With that in mind then, it comes down purely to how you will favour combat. I would think it hard for a hardcore blood angels player to get out of the melee mode quite so quickly so some armies are certainly not as good an idea. At that point, Iron Hands aren't so great due to lacking mobility (something you may not like) however Salamanders may step in not too bad, they like it close and personal like raven guard but instead of mobility they tend to have enhanced hitting power. From there I would say however that Salamander Relics tend not to be as great imo, not as much variety (last I remember reading their codex, more melee and nearly no ranged relics).

 

However if you like gimmicks...you can make a T7, 8 Wound Gravis Captain with a 6+ FNP and -1 to wound relic from salamanders. He may not be fast but he eats a lascannon to the face pretty confidently and a majority of other weapons have to wound him on 6s. A Gimmick yes, but my experiments and screwing around with codices is where I find joy (once made a 11 Strength Abominant in GSC. Melee attack was swinging at strength 22, pretty sure he would wound TITANS on 2s).

[Gederas]

Also, are you going pure chapter or making a custom chapter? That can affect what you want to do.

I struggle with indecisiveness so I know a custom chapter would probably be the right call in the long run.

With that in mind then, it comes down purely to how you will favour combat. I would think it hard for a hardcore blood angels player to get out of the melee mode quite so quickly so some armies are certainly not as good an idea. At that point, Iron Hands aren't so great due to lacking mobility (something you may not like) however Salamanders may step in not too bad, they like it close and personal like raven guard but instead of mobility they tend to have enhanced hitting power. From there I would say however that Salamander Relics tend not to be as great imo, not as much variety (last I remember reading their codex, more melee and nearly no ranged relics).

 

However if you like gimmicks...you can make a T7, 8 Wound Gravis Captain with a 6+ FNP and -1 to wound relic from salamanders. He may not be fast but he eats a lascannon to the face pretty confidently and a majority of other weapons have to wound him on 6s. A Gimmick yes, but my experiments and screwing around with codices is where I find joy (once made a 11 Strength Abominant in GSC. Melee attack was swinging at strength 22, pretty sure he would wound TITANS on 2s).

Oh yeah, Salamanders are good if you want dudes who are HORRIFICALLY BAD at dying :lol: Seriously, Salamanders can get some of the most durable characters in the game.

 

And that's not counting the outright most durable model in the game: The Forge World character Dreadnought, Bray'arth Ashmantle.

 

To the last point: Yes, but only the Warhound and Reaver :lol:

[Flesh Creature]

 

 

Also, are you going pure chapter or making a custom chapter? That can affect what you want to do.

I struggle with indecisiveness so I know a custom chapter would probably be the right call in the long run.

 

 

With that in mind then, it comes down purely to how you will favour combat. I would think it hard for a hardcore blood angels player to get out of the melee mode quite so quickly so some armies are certainly not as good an idea. At that point, Iron Hands aren't so great due to lacking mobility (something you may not like) however Salamanders may step in not too bad, they like it close and personal like raven guard but instead of mobility they tend to have enhanced hitting power. From there I would say however that Salamander Relics tend not to be as great imo, not as much variety (last I remember reading their codex, more melee and nearly no ranged relics).

 

However if you like gimmicks...you can make a T7, 8 Wound Gravis Captain with a 6+ FNP and -1 to wound relic from salamanders. He may not be fast but he eats a lascannon to the face pretty confidently and a majority of other weapons have to wound him on 6s. A Gimmick yes, but my experiments and screwing around with codices is where I find joy (once made a 11 Strength Abominant in GSC. Melee attack was swinging at strength 22, pretty sure he would wound TITANS on 2s).

 

 

I think I'm too much of a beginner to be considered a hardcore BA player. I haven't added up my new points total, but it should be just over 2000 now. Not including the Indomitus box I have coming.

 

I've read that taking units that don't take advantage of the BA melee bonuses is only going to handicap myself. Things like Eliminators, Redemptor Dreads, Repulsor Executioners, etc.

I'm not trying for a tournament winning, hyper competitive list. I just don't want to play an already seemingly not very beginner friendly playstyle on hard mode. Most likely I'm just over thinking the whole thing. 

[Mandragola]

You can judge whether a marine force is going to be focused on melee or shooting from its doctrine. Those that benefit devastator are more shooting-based - and so on.

 

I think marines are generally a mixed shooting and melee army. We're best at controlling the midfield with a combination of short-ish ranged firepower, scary midfield characters and lots of intercessors. Even chapters like Imperial Fists have characters who can do serious harm in melee, and there's nothing stopping them taking quite a lot of thunder hammers here and there.

 

I play Crimson Fists. We're really a most shooting-based army but bringing Pedro makes all my nearby intercessors pretty horrible, with 4 attacks each on the charge. It's nice to have a chapter has a Master, so you can get hold of the full rerolls without paying CPs for it. 

 

The lists I'm drawing up tend to feature loads of intercessors. Their only major weakness is anti tank, Given how scary stalker bolt rifles can be on devastator doctrine, I'm curious to see how little dedicated AT I can afford to bring. A unit of the new eradicators is certainly going to feature though, as will my Leviathan until his rules get toned down.

[Flesh Creature]

You can judge whether a marine force is going to be focused on melee or shooting from its doctrine. Those that benefit devastator are more shooting-based - and so on.

 

I think marines are generally a mixed shooting and melee army. We're best at controlling the midfield with a combination of short-ish ranged firepower, scary midfield characters and lots of intercessors. Even chapters like Imperial Fists have characters who can do serious harm in melee, and there's nothing stopping them taking quite a lot of thunder hammers here and there.

 

I play Crimson Fists. We're really a most shooting-based army but bringing Pedro makes all my nearby intercessors pretty horrible, with 4 attacks each on the charge. It's nice to have a chapter has a Master, so you can get hold of the full rerolls without paying CPs for it. 

 

The lists I'm drawing up tend to feature loads of intercessors. Their only major weakness is anti tank, Given how scary stalker bolt rifles can be on devastator doctrine, I'm curious to see how little dedicated AT I can afford to bring. A unit of the new eradicators is certainly going to feature though, as will my Leviathan until his rules get toned down.

 

That's really interesting. One of the reasons I chose Blood Angels was my assumption that because melee was generally worse than shooting in 8th, picking a melee space marine army would mean they would be effective at both. 

[tychobi]

You have it right for casual gaming. No need to squeeze every single bonus from your models, put down models that you enjoy.

 

But to your original question Salamanders bonuses are quite general, promoting an MSU (multiple small units) playstyle rather than shooting or melee in particular.

[Flesh Creature]

You have it right for casual gaming. No need to squeeze every single bonus from your models, put down models that you enjoy.

 

But to your original question Salamanders bonuses are quite general, promoting an MSU (multiple small units) playstyle rather than shooting or melee in particulaA

 

Salamanders are moving up the list of potential next armies. I don't love the flamer focus, but everything else I know about them seems awesome. Agatone is probably my favorite Primaris model as well.

[Dracos]

Yeah Garadon and Agatone are probably two if the wickedest in the Space Marine line. Mephiston being pretty the epitome of a bad man. 

[leth]

You can judge whether a marine force is going to be focused on melee or shooting from its doctrine. Those that benefit devastator are more shooting-based - and so on.

 

I think marines are generally a mixed shooting and melee army. We're best at controlling the midfield with a combination of short-ish ranged firepower, scary midfield characters and lots of intercessors. Even chapters like Imperial Fists have characters who can do serious harm in melee, and there's nothing stopping them taking quite a lot of thunder hammers here and there.

 

I play Crimson Fists. We're really a most shooting-based army but bringing Pedro makes all my nearby intercessors pretty horrible, with 4 attacks each on the charge. It's nice to have a chapter has a Master, so you can get hold of the full rerolls without paying CPs for it. 

 

The lists I'm drawing up tend to feature loads of intercessors. Their only major weakness is anti tank, Given how scary stalker bolt rifles can be on devastator doctrine, I'm curious to see how little dedicated AT I can afford to bring. A unit of the new eradicators is certainly going to feature though, as will my Leviathan until his rules get toned down.

I think unless they make a change to chapter doctrines then anyone counting on heavy is gonna be in a rough spot. I don’t see much being in LOS first turn, and a lot of your units will want to be moving and advancing into position to score objectives. 

 

I really really like how the secondaries make it so you have to play differently, also that you can both be maxing out while doing completely opposite things. 

[Dracos]

There's your Catch 22. You can't hide everything from LOS and at the same time be moving units into the midfield to be grabbing mission objectives. Its inevitable, your opponent is going to have to push units midfield from the word go or they've already given away the potential to grab important VP. The term controlled aggression should be something we keep close to our double hearts moving forward. 

 

Timing, movement, multiple applications of force in mass will win games. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

All marines are good at both.  I think that is the point of the army.  Whilst it is true that UM bladeguard will be inferior to Templars bladeguard... both of them exceptional in close combat.  The same applies to shooty marine units.  

 

A better question might be...

 

Is there a marine unit that is disproportionately bad when taken in a suboptimal (not perfect) chapter army?

 

Example, are IF Primaris Outriders vastly worse than WS Primaris Outriders?  

I think the answer is clearly no.  The base codex is just that good.  

[MegaVolt87]

I'm very likely to do Crimson Fists myself, I think they will be one of the dark horse armies for 9th ed like sallies IMO. I like Pedro, so I kinda will feel conflicted converting him to a primaris to fit with my 100% primaris force though just so he matches the look/ style. 

 

OT- also where the heck are the rest of the chaptermasters for the first/ second founding chapters already? Come on GW I want to see them with rules + models, I'm not getting any younger.... 

[Mandragola]

I based my Primaris Pedro on the Calgar model. The bodyguard guys are still on their sprues for now, though if the bladeguard squad size goes up to 5 I'll have a use for them there - suitably converted.

 

It will be very interesting to see whether devastator doctrine is still useful. I think we'll be able to see some things though, or at least some of the things we want to see. Vehicles are big, so even if a bit of terrain is obscuring we might often be able to get shots at things around the side. And people are talking about seriously spamming tanks, in which case they definitely won't be able to hide them all. Plus of course anything with 18+ wounds can't be hidden.

 

But Fists are still pretty happy in tactical doctrine. I expect I'll shift to having more rapid fire and auto bolt rifles now for this reason. A squad that chucks out 30 S4 ap-1 shots with full rerolls and exploding 6s is a threat to pretty much anything. They've even got a strat to make their guns count as pistols, so in assault doctrine (even if locked) the same squad could fire 40 S4 ap-1 shots. Meanwhile the rapid fire strat on bolt rifles can mean 40 S4 ap-2 shots, even at 30".

 

Overall I think Imperial Fists are probably a bit better than Crimson Fists. Ignoring cover is still going to be fantastic. Crimson Fists' only real advantage is Pedro so an army without him doesn't make huge amounts of sense, unless there's something I'm missing. It doesn't look like horde armies will be all that common in 9th unless the whole internet is wrong - which does happen sometimes.

[MegaVolt87]

I'm expecting hordes to make a comeback in the next year or two. Hordes are a very traditional for the game.

[Panzer]

Honestly, shooting is so overwhelming, you gotta go with one of the melee Marine chapters to have both, melee and shooting, be equal. Before reading your post I wanted to suggest BA, since unless you focus on the narrowminded SG and DC spam lists, they aren't actually bad at shooting at all and you can build quite diverse lists.

[Mandragola]

Honestly, shooting is so overwhelming, you gotta go with one of the melee Marine chapters to have both, melee and shooting, be equal. Before reading your post I wanted to suggest BA, since unless you focus on the narrowminded SG and DC spam lists, they aren't actually bad at shooting at all and you can build quite diverse lists.

This is a good point actually. Marines are generally a shooting army. If you want an army that does melee equally as well as it does shooting then you'll need to seriously focus on your melee side. BA, SW, Scars or Templars are your best options. Scars might be the most effective of these right now. They're incredibly fast and hit hard too.

 

On the other hand if you want an army that does melee reasonably well, while still shooting a lot, then there are loads of options for you.