Wolves in the new marine codex

[Petitioner's City]

I don't understand these worries as (a) we haven't seen the supplement, which can easily allow a lot of variance from the norm, and (b ) doesn't the wonderful heresy presentation show easy it it to present wolves' highly variant army from a main core universal list? Edited July 26, 2020 by Petitioner's City

[WickedJester1013]

When people talk about the current supplement sizes, I think it’s easy to forget that those all added new stuff. Besides the normal slew of relics, strats, psychic powers all the supplements got 1 maybe 2 data sheets. The rest of those books are lore. When blood angels, dark angels, and space wolves get their supplements I highly doubt they will be close to the excising supplements sizes.

[Dark Shepherd]

When people talk about the current supplement sizes, I think it’s easy to forget that those all added new stuff. Besides the normal slew of relics, strats, psychic powers all the supplements got 1 maybe 2 data sheets. The rest of those books are lore. When blood angels, dark angels, and space wolves get their supplements I highly doubt they will be close to the excising supplements sizes.

Bigtime

And nothing stopping us from getting the biggest supplement either

We have about 30 unique characters/units/datasheets

 

Super doctrines havent been mentioned/leaked so far but theyll probably be in the supplements and or a different page of the generic codex

[Leif Bearclaw]

I worry that people who are OK with being reduced to a Codex Supplement because 'it worked in 3rd' aren't taking into account the very different wider contexts of now vs then.

 

How divergent were the SWs in 3rd? If my memory hold it was essentially "3 special characters (Logan, Ragnar, Ulrik), all the infantry is different, a different wargear table, Venerable Dreads and the Leman Russ Exterminator". But that was still 2/3 the page count of the vanilla Marine Codex of the time.

 

How are we different now? We've gone from 3 Special Characters to (if I haven't missed anyone) 12 if you count both version of Ragnar (Logan, Ragnar, Ragnar, Krom, Harald, Bjorn, Ulrik, Njal, Lukas, Arjac, Canis, Murderfang). All the non-Primaris Marines are still different (WG. WGTDA, Scouts, 3 flavours of BC, GH, LF). Wolf Priests are combined Apothecaries/Chaplains (this is something I 100% expect to be lost in the shuffle). Shield Dreads, Wulfen Dreads, Wulfen, TWC, Stormfang, Stormwolf. Vanilla Marines have diverged too, Grav, Centurions, Ironclad Dreads, Sternguard veterans, Stormravens, Stormhawks, Stormtalons, Thunderfire Cannons etc. Plus there different sets of psychic disciplines, relics, stratagems and tactical objectives (none of which existed under 3rd). The 2 favours of Marines (plus BA and DA I assume) have never been more divergent. Are you completely confident that none of this unique stuff will be lost merging SW into Codex:SM? What will be the spread? How much will be in the Marine book, how much the Supplement? Frankly we're still operating on very little concrete info here, so any definitive 'this is good/bad' declarations seem a tad premature.

 

Of course it might work out great. Hell in my (100% objectively correct ) opinion a good few of the more recent SW unique things, TWC, the flyers, helfrost weaponry (this last one's a heartbreaker, a great idea implemented so half heartedly they might as well have not bothered) could be removed without too much issue (but of course, the people that like that stuff won't agree). But especially in light of the Primaris homogeneity (and their clear place as 'the future of Space Marines') it doesn't seem unreasonable to worry that this is the next step in reducing SWs to 'Grey Codex Marines with 2 pages of unique stratagems and a couple of characters'. 

[PeteySödes]

I mean we were just as divergent then as today if you take into account there was far less units in general. The special rules were pretty meaningful too at the time.

 

Again time will tell if it’s good or bad overall but if we’re going to stick with these rapid rules shifts I see it at least a positive being we’ll stay current longer.

[Valerian]

By my count, we currently share 43 data sheets with the regular Space Marine codex, and that isn't counting any of the new units from Indomitus, or the other teased releases that are also coming for Space Marines.  So we're probably looking at more than 55 redundant sheets by the time October rolls around.  

Even with all of our Unique stuff, it just makes sense for them to centralize the management of those 55+ shared data sheets into a core Codex.  Then they can put our 47 unique data sheets in the Supplement, and save themselves tons of room not having to duplicate the majority of units that already exist elsewhere.

Prevents a lot of stupid stuff, like the fact that our Suppressors and Inceptors are currently a lot cheaper than anybody else's.

[WickedJester1013]

Well I can say I never played wolves in 3rd and I am ok with this change. It’s been said before but a lot of space marines stuff is redundant across all books. But my biggest thing is we get faster updates if we are in the main codex. No more waiting months and months to have access to what the other chapters have.

Of course we’ll see how the supplement works when we get it but how much is really changing? When you read saga of the beast how much of the”new “ stuff we got was just toys the other chapters have been playing with

[Lord Blackwood]

Something that might be interesting is having access to the generic space marine relics and all the generic space marjne strats. If the pattern remains the same we get an entire slew of new stratagems warlord traits and relics. And then in our support we get even more chapter tailored stuff.

 

When the time comes we are obviously going to look at things like amount of fluff pages in our 8th codex vs our 9th sup. We are going to take a hard look at our unique units and see if they are still intact.

 

I mean whats to say we won't get more unique variant stuff that just leans into our primaris as they become the more dominant majority in the chapter.

 

Maybe instead of intercessors we get grey slayers and can tool them up with chains words

 

Maybe we get deathsworn

 

Maybe our blade guard get turned into shield brothers.

 

The flavor and culture of our chapter is what we make of it not just the difference of having a data sheet that says grey hunter instead of tactical marine.

 

And of course this is not even to speak of the possibility to use custom traits to build successors like in 8th for the codex chapters.

 

We have successors now so it makes sense and it could add a whole new layer of depth to our lkst building.

 

Don't call people sheep for looking at things with some positivity especially when its entirely possible we come out of this in a really strong position as opposed to a weak one.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Lord Blackwood

[TiguriusX]

I would love access to vanilla marine rules

 

The Imperiums Sword is awesome

[Karack Blackstone]

On being a sheep? Please learn to hunt better.

 

The SW's are Space Wolves first, Space Marines second.

 

We wear the pelt and the fang only as well as our Chapter's unique approach to SM combat remains intact, let alone hopefully added to.

 

The SW's hunt as Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Long Fangs, and that's just rather than Tactical Squads, there' no equivalent to BC's for the Vanilla SM Chapters, and then Devastators.

 

Our LF's are arguably better, simply because SW's can go to five HW's, albeit at the expense of not having "enough" ablative wounds. And instead, we can take a WGPL with SS to tank.

 

I think the single biggest measure of this is simply put, how and how well the individually unique SW datasheets mentioned by Valerian and others compare to the new editions changes.

 

If GH's and BC's remain with no option for Astartes Chainsword, the fate of NorMarines seems writ large.

If GH's and BC's remain and add the option to take Astartes Chainswords, then GW's at least got their heads screwed on straight.

 

If the Assault Intercessors are some variant of Blood Claw, say Ice Claws, or something, then even better for the rules writer knows that the SW's are about character, uniqueness, and writing one's saga in the blood of their foes upon the cold snow.

 

That's the rub.

Adding deadly options does not mean we might not be the single most expensive supplement of the series, and if we are, which I think we shall be, it seems to me to be the perfect chance to hunt better as the Primaris become their and the new version of SW culture, and hopefully enough of the NorMarine range not only remains, it remains in time and helps to continue to shape the Chapter so decades of real world time don't unravel the thread that binds the army together.

 

You speak of sheep, I speak of Wolves forgetting to hunt is GW's fault.

Please do not question my spine again.

Look to yourself and GW to learn the fate of the rules that will govern and dictate our models and how they fight, and see if when the supplement lands, you are howling or not.

[Lord Blackwood]

Are you replying to me or to the original sheep comment by another poster that I am referencing its difficult to tell.

 

Also as an aside I do believe the fate of the original space marine range is pretty set to fade slowly into legends but that is not the topic we are discussing.

 

Space wolves are space marines all space marines are being unified into one book.

It is not some personal affront to the chapter that the amount of armies is growing and they want to consolidate stuff.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Lord Blackwood

[WickedJester1013]

Uniqueness is great, but if it’s not as fun to play or weak then it will look real good for display on my shelf but won’t see much table time. Can firstborn marines really do anything primaris can’t? Sure a couple individual unitS can maybe out preform primaris but if I saw a firstborn marine army of any chapter vs primaris only army of the same chapter, I’m betting on Primaris. When was the last time space wolves were a scary army to fight? Or even won a major event? All of 8th I read stuff about how bad of an army space wolves are or how low tier.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I will say this.

 

Don't assume we gain access to anything we don't have access to.

 

Until it's in print or PDF errata, then we do not have access.

 

Long term, the only safe unit from the old range is wulfen. Those were retooled to be primaris scale. And represent both old/new.

 

I remember having and then having to sell off Ironclad dreadnoughts...I was not a happy Wolf that day

[Bryan Blaire]

I think anyone talking about spines, sheep, howls, etc., is being a silly, over-identifying git and forgetting that this is game, whether you are trying to role-play a character or not.

[Pavement Artist]

On being a sheep? Please learn to hunt better.

 

The SW's are Space Wolves first, Space Marines second.

 

We wear the pelt and the fang only as well as our Chapter's unique approach to SM combat remains intact, let alone hopefully added to.

 

The SW's hunt as Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Long Fangs, and that's just rather than Tactical Squads, there' no equivalent to BC's for the Vanilla SM Chapters, and then Devastators.

 

Our LF's are arguably better, simply because SW's can go to five HW's, albeit at the expense of not having "enough" ablative wounds. And instead, we can take a WGPL with SS to tank.

 

I think the single biggest measure of this is simply put, how and how well the individually unique SW datasheets mentioned by Valerian and others compare to the new editions changes.

 

If GH's and BC's remain with no option for Astartes Chainsword, the fate of NorMarines seems writ large.

If GH's and BC's remain and add the option to take Astartes Chainswords, then GW's at least got their heads screwed on straight.

 

If the Assault Intercessors are some variant of Blood Claw, say Ice Claws, or something, then even better for the rules writer knows that the SW's are about character, uniqueness, and writing one's saga in the blood of their foes upon the cold snow.

 

That's the rub.

Adding deadly options does not mean we might not be the single most expensive supplement of the series, and if we are, which I think we shall be, it seems to me to be the perfect chance to hunt better as the Primaris become their and the new version of SW culture, and hopefully enough of the NorMarine range not only remains, it remains in time and helps to continue to shape the Chapter so decades of real world time don't unravel the thread that binds the army together.

 

You speak of sheep, I speak of Wolves forgetting to hunt is GW's fault.

Please do not question my spine again.

Look to yourself and GW to learn the fate of the rules that will govern and dictate our models and how they fight, and see if when the supplement lands, you are howling or not.

I can assure you that they are space marines first

[Karack Blackstone]

 

Are you replying to me or to the original sheep comment by another poster that I am referencing its difficult to tell.

Also as an aside I do believe the fate of the original space marine range is pretty set to fade slowly into legends but that is not the topic we are discussing.

Space wolves are space marines all space marines are being unified into one book.
It is not some personal affront to the chapter that the amount of armies is growing and they want to consolidate stuff.

 

 

I think anyone talking about spines, etc., is being a silly, over-identifying git and forgetting that this is game, whether you are trying to role-play a character or not.

 

 

 

On being a sheep? Please learn to hunt better.

The SW's are Space Wolves first, Space Marines second.

We wear the pelt and the fang only as well as our Chapter's unique approach to SM combat remains intact, let alone hopefully added to.

The SW's hunt as Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Long Fangs, and that's just rather than Tactical Squads, there' no equivalent to BC's for the Vanilla SM Chapters, and then Devastators.

Our LF's are arguably better, simply because SW's can go to five HW's, albeit at the expense of not having "enough" ablative wounds. And instead, we can take a WGPL with SS to tank.

I think the single biggest measure of this is simply put, how and how well the individually unique SW datasheets mentioned by Valerian and others compare to the new editions changes.

If GH's and BC's remain with no option for Astartes Chainsword, the fate of NorMarines seems writ large.
If GH's and BC's remain and add the option to take Astartes Chainswords, then GW's at least got their heads screwed on straight.

If the Assault Intercessors are some variant of Blood Claw, say Ice Claws, or something, then even better for the rules writer knows that the SW's are about character, uniqueness, and writing one's saga in the blood of their foes upon the cold snow.

That's the rub.
Adding deadly options does not mean we might not be the single most expensive supplement of the series, and if we are, which I think we shall be, it seems to me to be the perfect chance to hunt better as the Primaris become their and the new version of SW culture, and hopefully enough of the NorMarine range not only remains, it remains in time and helps to continue to shape the Chapter so decades of real world time don't unravel the thread that binds the army together.

You speak of sheep, I speak of Wolves forgetting to hunt is GW's fault.
Please do not question my spine again.
Look to yourself and GW to learn the fate of the rules that will govern and dictate our models and how they fight, and see if when the supplement lands, you are howling or not.

I can assure you that they are space marines first

 

 

 

On being a sheep? Please learn to hunt better.

The SW's are Space Wolves first, Space Marines second.

We wear the pelt and the fang only as well as our Chapter's unique approach to SM combat remains intact, let alone hopefully added to.

The SW's hunt as Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Long Fangs, and that's just rather than Tactical Squads, there' no equivalent to BC's for the Vanilla SM Chapters, and then Devastators.

Our LF's are arguably better, simply because SW's can go to five HW's, albeit at the expense of not having "enough" ablative wounds. And instead, we can take a WGPL with SS to tank.

I think the single biggest measure of this is simply put, how and how well the individually unique SW datasheets mentioned by Valerian and others compare to the new editions changes.

If GH's and BC's remain with no option for Astartes Chainsword, the fate of NorMarines seems writ large.
If GH's and BC's remain and add the option to take Astartes Chainswords, then GW's at least got their heads screwed on straight.

If the Assault Intercessors are some variant of Blood Claw, say Ice Claws, or something, then even better for the rules writer knows that the SW's are about character, uniqueness, and writing one's saga in the blood of their foes upon the cold snow.

That's the rub.
Adding deadly options does not mean we might not be the single most expensive supplement of the series, and if we are, which I think we shall be, it seems to me to be the perfect chance to hunt better as the Primaris become their and the new version of SW culture, and hopefully enough of the NorMarine range not only remains, it remains in time and helps to continue to shape the Chapter so decades of real world time don't unravel the thread that binds the army together.

You speak of sheep, I speak of Wolves forgetting to hunt is GW's fault.
Please do not question my spine again.
Look to yourself and GW to learn the fate of the rules that will govern and dictate our models and how they fight, and see if when the supplement lands, you are howling or not.

I can assure you that they are space marines first

 

 

I see I will need to do a better job of contextualizing my "fun" and "insightful" posts better.

Nah, SW's aren't sheep, and the SM first thing makes some sense. That typed, SW's are Wolves first, their own form of SM's, and normal SM's second, which is more what I meant.

 

Sorry about that one.

And as to the ongoing thread, I think if we are patient and wait long enough, the SW's will prove to be among the best if not one of the best SM Chapter armies this new edition.

 

Why?

 

We get a pretty solid spread of the SM stuff, no matter how much is likely added, we as players should gain for our armies on the table a great many options. Will what we get be enough for me in my hopeful mindset? I don't know yet; also, to the spine and sheep thing, I was more feeling like there's no reason to call someone a sheep if I choose to be hopeful about the fact that we can get the best of both worlds, being partially rolled into the SM Codex and getting a fluffy, Wolfy SW supplement can both occur. Is GW's track record spotless? No, hardly.

 

What I find most interesting is that SW's should, and I do mean should, be some of the best improved armies this coming edition. I think GW knows how to plan well, it's the execution I think a good spread of us as players can tell that they're not so great at currently.

 

SW's should prove strong long term. While I don't know yet how strong, how much better off, the fluffiness of the Wolves and the supplement seems to be a general trend that GW can do well, it's the points that may prove to be all over the place!

Edited July 26, 2020 by Karack Blackstone

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Well I can say I never played wolves in 3rd and I am ok with this change. It’s been said before but a lot of space marines stuff is redundant across all books. But my biggest thing is we get faster updates if we are in the main codex. No more waiting months and months to have access to what the other chapters have.

Of course we’ll see how the supplement works when we get it but how much is really changing? When you read saga of the beast how much of the”new “ stuff we got was just toys the other chapters have been playing with

I have to agree with this, it was 6-7 months before we got chapter tactics like everyone else, and that wait wasn't any fun.

[Valerian]

 

Heavy Intercessors with new Heavy Bolt Rifles, to go with the new Captain with the Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle.

[Guest Triszin]

im inclined to say they are an alternate build for eradicators.

[Iain_Stormeyes]

That's a Gravis Intercessor, look at its legs, it has the pipes/coils that other gravis have.

[Valerian]

That's a Gravis Intercessor, look at its legs, it has the pipes/coils that other gravis have.

Yep. Only question is if they’ll be Troops choices....

 

 

Edit: looks like they’re going to be Troops!

[Axilleas]

That really makes me wish the heavy bolt rifle will be a WGPL wargear upgrade. I'd love to have some of my intercessor packs with the leader packing a m249 saw.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m worried they will drop support for specialist units.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I’m hoping we don’t have too long to wait. They usually release one of the deviant chapters around Christmas. I can see them doing all three around then. Or an FAQ that says use these data sheets from the 8th edition codex for now. Wasn’t there a rumor that death watch would be the first marines release after the codex?

[Valerian]

I’m hoping we don’t have too long to wait. ?

We’ll probably have our new Supplement within a week or two of the new Marine Codex, in October.