Wolves in the new marine codex

[Spinsanity]

I do want to say, it's not doom and gloom to be hesitant on what their release schedule will be for the supplements as the only example we have to go off is 3rd edition. Maybe things will be better, maybe not, we can only wait and see.

Actually, we’ve seen what they can do a year ago with the 8th edition C:SM release, where they released 6 supplements in what, 3 months was it? I feel safe expecting the 4 new supplements to be released at the same 2/month (or was it 2 every 2 months?) rate...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

im sorry, my eyes arent what they used to be.

What are the wolf rules?

[Guest Triszin]

+1 to hit when wolves charge, are charged, or perform heroic intervention

All wolves have 3" heroic intervention as though they were characters.

[Karhedron]

I also think veteran intercessors will now have a box because they are there own data sheet.

Will Veteran Intercessors stay as Troops or will they get bumped into Elites now that they have their own data sheet? I am guessing Elies but would be pleasantly surprised to be wrong. Maybe it is no so important, in 8th we really needed 6 Troops for those CPs but now we can get away with just 3 Troops if we really want (although extra units for ObjSec may be useful.

[Guest Triszin]

They int vets appear in the elite section of the index.

 

Heavy intercessors are in the troop section.

[VIth]

They int vets appear in the elite section of the index.

 

Heavy intercessors are in the troop section.

 

One step closer to true Wolf Guard for us.  All we really need is better weapon options for them.  Hope we know soon, though, as I was about to paint the squad markings for my veteran squad: the plan is to paint their should as Grey Hunters and paint their right knee with Wolf Guard markings as "Wolf Guard honors."  If they're an elite entry it would make more sense to just give them actual Wolf Guard markings, IMO.

 

I have to say, in general, I don't understand some of the "sky is falling" mentality WRT either the rules leak or being in the codex. 

-Heroic intervention on our Troops is *very* fluffy IMO (wolf packs swarming an enemy together) and will be VERY useful in this edition.  Keep in mind, this edition is shaping up into being heavily geared towards control the objectives which are generally located in the middle of the board.  This forces the opponent to comes towards us, and when it comes to contesting objectives we can literally heroically intervene into their models during their charge phase if they move into range of an objective we're camping on.  I think this is actually quite fantastic.

-Being in the codex is really not that big a deal to me.  GW is obviously fully fleshing out their Primaris line first.  Once this is done, I'm confident we will get a unique squad package or two.  Until then, we will not get unique squad entries per GW's practice of not giving rules to things they don't create models for.  

 

Finally, I want fewer unique units and more unique rules.  I'd much much rather have Long Fang Hellblasters that don't suck and Space Wolves Intercessors to have more and better options/rules than Primaris Thunder Wolves (which wouldn't even make sense) and Primaris Wulfen.  

Edited July 29, 2020 by VIth

[Dark Shepherd]

Possible sneaky winner of the new all units HI rule...the True Grit strat letting us shoot Bolt rifles as Pistol 2s

 

That and vehicles esp dreads shooting in combat

 

Slight loser are non character units with minus one to hit weapons, dont want to be left with too much work to do in the melee phase in your turn (without that to hit bonus)

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The one thing I worry about with us getting rolled into the marine Dex is will we keep those strats (from our old codex, I don't think we will lose ones from Saga of the beast). Some of my favorites got worse so it's no big deal for example lone wolf is pretty brutal if your opponent chose assassinate as one of their secondaries. I just expect us to lose some flavor stratagem wise and hope we keep a few of my favorites (for the record I still want lone wolf in, it just has extra drawbacks in some instances).

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

The one thing I worry about with us getting rolled into the marine Dex is will we keep those strats (from our old codex, I don't think we will lose ones from Saga of the beast). Some of my favorites got worse so it's no big deal for example lone wolf is pretty brutal if your opponent chose assassinate as one of their secondaries. I just expect us to lose some flavor stratagem wise and hope we keep a few of my favorites (for the record I still want lone wolf in, it just has extra drawbacks in some instances).

This seems like an unfounded fear considering all of the other marine supplements get stratagems unique to their chapter

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

They each got around 16 and a few of those were universal so like 13 unique ones. We had that many in our codex alone. I'm pretty happy with the change in general so its not a huge drawback but I do expect to lose some.

[VIth]

They each got around 16 and a few of those were universal so like 13 unique ones. We had that many in our codex alone. I'm pretty happy with the change in general so its not a huge drawback but I do expect to lose some.

Well, some of our unique stratagems are garbage.  Which actually useful ones do you think will go away?

[Dark Shepherd]

We will lose some strats for sure but some strats were more useful than others

[StrangerOrders]

 

They int vets appear in the elite section of the index.

 

Heavy intercessors are in the troop section.

 

One step closer to true Wolf Guard for us.  All we really need is better weapon options for them.  Hope we know soon, though, as I was about to paint the squad markings for my veteran squad: the plan is to paint their should as Grey Hunters and paint their right knee with Wolf Guard markings as "Wolf Guard honors."  If they're an elite entry it would make more sense to just give them actual Wolf Guard markings, IMO.

 

I have to say, in general, I don't understand some of the "sky is falling" mentality WRT either the rules leak or being in the codex. 

-Heroic intervention on our Troops is *very* fluffy IMO (wolf packs swarming an enemy together) and will be VERY useful in this edition.  Keep in mind, this edition is shaping up into being heavily geared towards control the objectives which are generally located in the middle of the board.  This forces the opponent to comes towards us, and when it comes to contesting objectives we can literally heroically intervene into their models during their charge phase if they move into range of an objective we're camping on.  I think this is actually quite fantastic.

-Being in the codex is really not that big a deal to me.  GW is obviously fully fleshing out their Primaris line first.  Once this is done, I'm confident we will get a unique squad package or two.  Until then, we will not get unique squad entries per GW's practice of not giving rules to things they don't create models for.  

 

Finally, I want fewer unique units and more unique rules.  I'd much much rather have Long Fang Hellblasters that don't suck and Space Wolves Intercessors to have more and better options/rules than Primaris Thunder Wolves (which wouldn't even make sense) and Primaris Wulfen.  

 

I deeply disagree with that stance.

 

GW heavily prioritizes models, more unique kits = More unique rules and stuff.

 

Having fewer unique things for GW to profit from is literally how you get marginalized. Because if you just want exotically painted Primaris stuff then they can sell you base Primaris stuff as they gradually shrink your rules and if you complain at that point I can't really blame GW for not caring much about your say, since they can sate you with baseline models and Rules are not exactly the main money maker.

 

I don't contest you right to the opinion, but I do contest that such an attitude is a very risky proposition to pretend isn't without risks. 

 

You can realistically expect from whats coming what the six current Vanilla-Adjacent Founders get, but if you expect more rules than that it is fair to note a great degree of optimism. And I have no idea why you would expect to receive more than them if GW expects you to equally contribute to the bottom-line. 

 

What decides the fate of the Wolves by my token is if we ever get a Grey Hunter-style box for Intercessors. Since that box notably came overstuffed with conversion fuel and is a keystone of the Wolf Stuff (right down to alot of reused assets). And you would not release a kit like that unless it is to serve as a building-block moving forwards.

Edited July 30, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Spinsanity]

What decides the fate of the Wolves by my token is if we ever get a Grey Hunter-style box for Intercessors. Since that box notably came overstuffed with conversion fuel and is a keystone of the Wolf Stuff (right down to alot of reused assets). And you would not release a kit like that unless it is to serve as a building-block moving forwards.

I’m curious, why exactly does a Primaris GH pack need more options than those offered by the Intercessor datasheet? What options does a Primaris BC pack needs that the Assault Intercessor datasheet is bound to disallow?

 

Basically what is it that’s preventing you from painting the new units as their SW counterparts and just enjoying the minis?

[StrangerOrders]

 

What decides the fate of the Wolves by my token is if we ever get a Grey Hunter-style box for Intercessors. Since that box notably came overstuffed with conversion fuel and is a keystone of the Wolf Stuff (right down to alot of reused assets). And you would not release a kit like that unless it is to serve as a building-block moving forwards.

I’m curious, why exactly does a Primaris GH pack need more options than those offered by the Intercessor datasheet? What options does a Primaris BC pack needs that the Assault Intercessor datasheet is bound to disallow?

 

Basically what is it that’s preventing you from painting the new units as their SW counterparts and just enjoying the minis?

 

You just hit the nail on the head.

 

Why do they need unique models, totems, runes engraved into the armor and fur cloaks?

 

Because thats the point.

 

Its like asking, why do you need molded breastplates for BAngels and loving mosaics, or robes and team-killing for DAngels.

 

I came to play space vikings bound in runes telling of their glory, wearing trophies of their kills and with a small country's GDP enameled onto their warplate with beards longer than a mortal man's height. I want fetishes and talisman's wrapping them to dispel the work of witches and to promise mighty deaths, I want their helms to be snarling beasts and wards etched over their hearts.

 

If you just care about rules and think slapping on a paint job does the trick, why call it the space wolves? 

 

I didnt mean weapon options at all, I meant that the GH box is crammed with more power-packs, helmets, breastplates, fetishes and details than you could ever fit onto ten models. Because it gives them a distinct look as models. Because you are meant to convert multiple units using one box alone.

 

GW does not need to keep the wolves as an entity if the players just want a small supplement. More to the point they do not even need to do that much if just attaching some nifty Doctrines and a few strategems to the Core Marine book will achieve that.

 

I respect those that are content with that, I do.

 

But its telling of a drastically different species of interest in the faction that your first concern was for the datasheet.

 

I was arguing that even if you just care about rules, then you should pay at least marginal care to the models if you want them to stick around beyond what the other six founders got.

Edited July 30, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Gherrick]

I want our elite wolf guard units to have far more flexibility per model on their individual equipment. I want to see our frost weapons and wolf claws accessible on the primaris units. The sameness per model on our elites is SO contrary to our lore I am rightfully worried the SW identity is being marginalized.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Gherrick

[WickedJester1013]

Sooooooo the common complaint is just what the model looks like? Just kitbash in the mean time.im sure in some distant year we will get primaris specific wolf kits, in the mean time a little bit of effort and your intercessors could look more like the grey hunters and assault intercessors can look like blood claws. I’m not even taking about hard kitbashes, swap some shoulder pads, glue a pelt on and swap a head tax on a fresh coat of paint. This to me seems like the perfect win. Some players love all the Wolfy stuff, and others hate it and think it’s too much. Now you can choose your level of character.

[Spinsanity]

But its telling of a drastically different species of interest in the faction that your first concern was for the datasheet.

 

I was arguing that even if you just care about rules, then you should pay at least marginal care to the models if you want them to stick around beyond what the other six founders got.

When you mentioned “Grey Hunter style Intercessors” my assumption was that you were more concerned with the rules than the models, sorry, but I realize now O misread your post and thus misunderstood your concern, sorry.

 

I doubt that in any near future anyone should expect anything but the far too limited upgrade packs, unfortunately. Hopefully they eventually do release chapter-specific Intercessor boxes at the least, but I fear that will be a long tome coming... Until then I’ll just convert my intercessors and company using existing bits to enhance the new range...

[WickedJester1013]

Stranger, it’s totally fair to think about rules AND models. After all most of use will use them on the table top at some point.

[StrangerOrders]

 

But its telling of a drastically different species of interest in the faction that your first concern was for the datasheet.

 

I was arguing that even if you just care about rules, then you should pay at least marginal care to the models if you want them to stick around beyond what the other six founders got.

When you mentioned “Grey Hunter style Intercessors” my assumption was that you were more concerned with the rules than the models, sorry, but I realize now O misread your post and thus misunderstood your concern, sorry.

 

I doubt that in any near future anyone should expect anything but the far too limited upgrade packs, unfortunately. Hopefully they eventually do release chapter-specific Intercessor boxes at the least, but I fear that will be a long tome coming... Until then I’ll just convert my intercessors and company using existing bits to enhance the new range...

 

That is very much in line with my thinking as well tbh.

 

Frankly, I think I would be happy if something like that comes along at some point but I think that will depend on how popular the Wolves continue to be and how well this potential upgrade kit sells. 

 

If GW thinks a GH-style box is profitable, they will make it after all. 

 

I just hope (and expect) this supplement to at least have the same tier of upgrade kit as what we got with the other six, the one we have right now is inadequate in general. 

 

The most optimistic thing in the near-future is the hope for each of the three divergents maybe getting either second Rubicon or entirely new Primaris character (Hopefully CMs). Since that would still give us a leg up and show at least some interest on GWs part to maybe go further.  

 

So I definitely will end up buying the supplement, but I will likely pickup a new upgrade kit for each new unit if that is what it takes to motivate GW.

 

Stranger, it’s totally fair to think about rules AND models. After all most of use will use them on the table top at some point.

Oh definitely, my disagreement was mostly in that I think it is difficult to dismiss one side entirely since they are integrally linked. Moreso under GW's current form than ever in fact.

 

I do care about rules, but I confess that I am a stubborn old codger in the sense that I stick to my chosen armies regardless of meta so I cannot speak to that concern with the same degree of intensity as I do the models.

 

And I do confess that I will never vote in favor of rules over range. Since favoring rules makes range optional while range makes rules mandatory.

 

I do understand and respect the desire to access the rules though and I do not mean to belittle those that have a different stance to myself.

[Bryan Blaire]

I didnt mean weapon options at all, I meant that the GH box is crammed with more power-packs, helmets, breastplates, fetishes and details than you could ever fit onto ten models. Because it gives them a distinct look as models. Because you are meant to convert multiple units using one box alone.

...

I was arguing that even if you just care about rules, then you should pay at least marginal care to the models if you want them to stick around beyond what the other six founders got.

To your first point, I think you are laughably mistaken with how GW sees "you" modeling anything with the "Space Wolves Pack" box - THEY very clearly intend you to stick everything that you can on a single model from that single box. Not a single depiction on the box or the GW website shows Blood Claw/Grey Hunter models made with anything other than bits in the box.

 

So no, you can't assert that GW means you to convert multiple Grey Hunter or Bloodclaw units with a single box - that would actually be very counter-intuitive to them making that box and making all their Bloodclaws and Grey Hunters with that box and nothing else.

 

Now, yes, it has some Wolf Scout bits on there (heads), but that's what's extra - heads, and some weapon options, so you can make either Blood Claws or Grey Hunters out of the box.

 

You get exactly five legs per sprue. You get five Wolf styled breast plates, and only a single Wolf pelt bearing back plate.

 

So you don't get more than enough to stick on ten models. You get enough for five models.

 

Anyone thinking that a Primaris Chapter-unique box is going to be an upgrade kit type box is fooling themselves anyway - that's not how the Primaris kits work. If you want to use Primaris Wolf legs with a non-Wolf torso, you're going to have to do some converting - there will no longer be "kit bashing" as we knew it with anything other than helms, arms, and power packs. Maybe, maybe, weapons, but those are usually tied to the arms. The fetishes/extra bits, like purity seals, you can just stick on, exactly like you could for classic Marines.

 

To your second point - what are you talking about? What exactly do you think the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Ravenguard, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, or White Scars lost that would make you think that becoming part of the Codex: Space Marines would cause you to lose things? There's zero comparison or evaluation to even be made there. You are assuming through some kind of false equivalency that GW will somehow make the Space Wolves, who they have developed for decades, into the equivalent of Chapters they have given virtually no development time to over that same time.

 

There's zero evidence you can point to of that being the intent, other than the assumption that the brand new line of bigger Space Marines that have been out for just three-ish years and are likely not even basic model complete means the Space Wolves will never get anything at all other than those models.

 

Primaris Marines aren't even as far in the Marine release phase as classic Marines were when we got a handful of unique Space Wolf models.

[StrangerOrders]

 

I didnt mean weapon options at all, I meant that the GH box is crammed with more power-packs, helmets, breastplates, fetishes and details than you could ever fit onto ten models. Because it gives them a distinct look as models. Because you are meant to convert multiple units using one box alone.

... 

I was arguing that even if you just care about rules, then you should pay at least marginal care to the models if you want them to stick around beyond what the other six founders got.

To your first point, I think you are laughably mistaken with how GW sees "you" modeling anything with the "Space Wolves Pack" box - THEY very clearly intend you to stick everything that you can on a single model from that single box. Not a single depiction on the box or the GW website shows Blood Claw/Grey Hunter models made with anything other than bits in the box.

 

So no, you can't assert that GW means you to convert multiple Grey Hunter or Bloodclaw units with a single box - that would actually be very counter-intuitive to them making that box and making all their Bloodclaws and Grey Hunters with that box and nothing else.

 

Now, yes, it has some Wolf Scout bits on there (heads), but that's what's extra - heads, and some weapon options, so you can make either Blood Claws or Grey Hunters out of the box.

 

You get exactly five legs per sprue. You get five Wolf styled breast plates, and only a single Wolf pelt bearing back plate.

 

So you don't get more than enough to stick on ten models. You get enough for five models.

 

To your second point - what are you talking about? What exactly do you think the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Ravenguard, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, or White Scars lost that would make you think that becoming part of the Codex: Space Marines would cause you to lose things? There's zero comparison or evaluation to even be made there. You are assuming through some kind of false equivalency that GW will somehow make the Space Wolves, who they have developed for decades, into the equivalent of Chapters they have given virtually no development time to over that same time.

 

There's zero evidence you can point to of that being the intent, other than the assumption that the brand new line of bigger Space Marines that have been out for just three-ish years and are likely not even basic model complete means the Space Wolves will never get anything at all other than those models.

 

Primaris Marines aren't even as far in the Marine release phase as classic Marines were when we got a handful of unique Space Wolf model.

 

Swiftclaws, Long Fangs, Skyclaws, Wolfguard, HQs even the likes of Lords, etc.

 

If you can only use the spare bits of the box to create Wolf Scouts I am somewhat at a loss I confess.

 

Heck, the rulebooks even show that stuff being modeled using bits from the box.

 

I also dont recall saying they would go extinct, I said that I would not expect much until I saw a GH-style box and that if you only wanted rules it was a good way of being marginalized. 

 

I also intended no slight, which you respectfully seem to have taken. 

Edited July 31, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Bryan Blaire]

Yes, you can use them on other things - that doesn't mean that it's the intent of the box - after all, is the intent of the Devastator box or Assault Squad box to make Tactical Marines?

 

I'm not sure why you think folks should take you seriously when you don't even have the name of the box correct.

 

I mean, shockingly, you can use/convert lots of the bits in that box to Wolf-enhance Primaris units as well - is that the intent of the box - to make Primaris units?

 

It's interesting that you didn't bother to try and refute the other points.

[StrangerOrders]

Yes, you can use them on other things - that doesn't mean that it's the intent of the box - after all, is the intent of the Devastator box or Assault Squad box to make Tactical Marines?

 

I'm not sure why you think folks should take you seriously when you don't even have the name of the box correct.

Umm... I would think not.

 

But then again I am not aware of the sample art from codexes using Devastators to make Tactical Marines. In the vein the Wolf Codexes have.

 

And I am not privy to which box I am naming wrong, nor why you think the ability to recall it is tantamount to the value of my point.

 

I also sense that you are fairly adamant in your stance, and I respect that. But I am not sure why you are so offended by my own or its opposition to your own.

[WickedJester1013]

I think chapter specific box upgrades is well within the team of realism. Wasn’t it black Templar’s some years ago that had an upgrade book or I’m I thinking of something else. If you had a few chest plates that fit the current intercessors back on the torso, a few shine guards, then the usually weapons, heads, shoulder pads . And toss in some fur Pelts because why not.