Anti tank in 9th?

[Jacques Corbin]

Greetings brothers, how are you all? So, what are we all doing for anti tank in 9th, what with new tanks coming out, and Eradicators, and all? Not to mention there are not only tanks, but monsters and battle suits to deal with.

 

Are Lascannons on Devastators still worth it? Maybe Lasfusil Eliminators? What about Eradicators with SftS or even MoA?

 

Anybody getting new Gladiator tanks? If so, the Lastalon variant or the heavy Laser Destroyer variant?

[duz_]

The tread head in my wants several new Gladiators.... However then my RG army will start looking like my IG army :sweat:

 

AT I've enjoyed using my Executioner and good ol lascannon devs

Lasful Eliminators did an OK job

 

Not sure on the new Eradicators aesthetically yet. I've semi pigeonholed them with Centurions, which is: not in my RG force

[Frater Cornelius]

Whether Gladiators amount to anything really depends on battlefield role, models per slot and cost. Given that vehicles can't benefit from terrain anymore in 9th, if I am recalling correctly, then the Stealthy trait from RG will be great for backfield tanks, which is what the anti-tank Gladiator seems to be.

 

Beyond that, I have a good feeling about Eradicators. SftS on a single unit of 3 will almost guarantee a tank kill, invulnerable saves notwithstanding, and then presents a threat. At 24" range, they can easily drop into terrain to benefit from RG traits. I think that at least a one-off Eradicator unit will do nicely in RG lists, unless you are strapped for HS slots, which is precisely my issue. I still like to keep 2 units of Eliminators, which still allows a unit of Eradicators. However, that means if Gladiators end up being HS as well, that would cost 2-3 CP to get those up and running. Is that worth it? We will see.

 

There was a short moment where Las Fusils didn't look so bad. However, that is 10ppm more than the sniper and I still think that the bolt sniper rifle is the more efficient weapon. Still, you could make the argument that 3 Eradicators and 6 Las Fusils will do good work. That's 360 points for 9 models though. Sounds 50 shades of wrong, but it may turn out to be good.

 

If you are less inclined to shoot and more happy to charge, Aggressors, Invictors, Mace of Redeption bike Chaplain, PFs on troops and all that jazz should do well.

[Lukoi]

My current list of AT assets are 2 x Erads teams, one RCD with 2xTwin Lascannon, and while technically not AT, a RLD with levclaw+multimelta and a storm cannon array.

 

A team of Suppressors can add some mild chipping, and my Assault Cents + Smash Captain can melee an armored threat to death exactly one time from deepstrike probably.

[MajorNese]

Tarantulas will be my next try. Now twin HB got increased costs, the lascannon variant is just 10p higher. Can't be locked in CC, at least according to the old rules. Don't think they updated something that specific, gotta check.

 

Las-Fusil Eliminators will be one of the next tries in my book too. With the changes to vehicles and heavy weapons, autocannon invictors and redemptors might be useful too, since moving doesn't have any drawbacks now. We'll see.

[Riddlesworth]

Drowning in dice.

Combat

Eradicators SFTS

[Frater Cornelius]

Drowning in dice.

Combat

Eradicators SFTS

Let's elaborate on combat, since RG are probably the only SM chapter that can really capitalize on it. MoA Aggressors, MoR Primaris bike Chaplain, Invictors, SftS PF Intercessors. That is a lot high power melee attacks and even more anti infantry dakka to clear the chaff. The Chap can provide a mobile +2" charge litany.

 

But man, this sounds risky. Whiff your rolls and you are well within 12", so no bonuses for you, and the opponent will have a field day.

[Alcyon]

I do think there are some anti-tank combat options in a pinch, I particularly expect the Bike Chaplain to be good at it, and a 5-man squad of Terminators (Tartaros with Chainfists) or a 3-man squad of Aggressors (with Captain re-rolls) can destroy a 10w t7 vehicle in one round of combat on average. Keep in mind an Invictor only has 5 attacks even with Shock Assault, so even wounding on 2s and D3 the most damage it'll do on average is 7 wounds. I do think we can make those charges pretty reliably even out of deep strike using the Raven's Blade and Canticle of Hate. 

Outside of that there are a lot of options. I do like Las-fusil Eliminators conceptually but I got my Eliminators charged out of DS in recent games. You can invest in the Instigator bolt carbine for the Covering Fire rule but now it'll cost CP to run from those attacks. You're also paying 110pts for camo cloaks and two Las Fusils which'll only do about 3w a turn to a t7 vehicle on average. In contrast Eradicators are only 10pts more for a unit that'll do 12 wounds on average to a t7 model. Knights do present a problem with their invulnerable saves, to the point I'm almost considering a Phobos Chief Librarian with Psychic Mastery and Null Zone. 

 

Other options include the Xiphon, it's weapons can do an average of 6.5w to a t7 vehicle, it's pretty robust with Hard to Hit and gets +1 hit for shooting other flyers. The Stormtalon is surprisingly almost as good for 45pts less, doing just under 5w average to a t7 vehicle if you give it Lascannons thanks to Strafing Run (and assuming you fire the Assault Cannons too.) In comparison, Devastators with 4 Lascannons do just over 5 dmg at 135 pts.

 

Eradicators 120pts for 11.92 dmg, 10pts/dmg (one dead vehicle)

Hellblasters (5x rapid-fire overcharged) 165pts for 8.88 dmg, 18pts/dmg - with Captain re-roll they can do 10.37 and kill a vehicle

Devastators (4x Lascannons) 135pts for 5.185 dmg, 26pts/dmg

Eliminators (2x Las Fusil) 110pts for 3.472 dmg, 32pts/dmg

Xiphon 220 pts for 6.518 dmg, 33pts/dmg

Stormtalon (Lascannons) 175pts for 4.90 dmg, 35pts/dmg

 

I think the discount price per wound for the Eradicators (and Hellblasters) is reflected in their comparatively short range and low maneuverability, but boy is it cheap. I think with SftS especially we are well set-up to compensate for those weaknesses, though it's certainly worth noting people will see it coming and try to zone you out. Not quite sure how to compensate for this risk.

 

I think your choice between these is really dependent on your army style and setup. For what it's worth, with the new smaller board sizes and increased cover, I don't think range is as worth it as it was - plus, enemy armies can still get up in your face unless you zone them out really well. I'm running Hellblasters and Eradicators and may expand to a Stormtalon later on.

 

Re: the Gladiator - we don't have a points cost so hard to say on that front. I think the Valiant version with Las-talons and Multi-meltas is the coolest one by far, I love a tank that wants to close the range, but I think it's poor in RG because it loses cover.

One thing I do love for RG is the idea of a sniper tank, so the Lancer probably makes the most sense but we'll have see the cost and whether you can put anything useful in the sponsons. It does seem like a lot of tank to run one big gun, similar sort of issue to the 160pt Predator Annihilator vs. the 135pt Devastators with the same loadout and better use of cover. We do have the Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer, which I've always had a soft spot for. It costs I think 203 points and has two modes, both pretty bad:

 

Overcharge (hit rolls of 1 cause 3 MW) - 5.333 dmg 38pts/dmg

Volley fire (shooting twice if not moved) - 4.444 dmg vs. t7, 45pts/dmg

Edited July 30, 2020 by Alcyon

[Riddlesworth]

 

Drowning in dice.

Combat

Eradicators SFTS

Let's elaborate on combat, since RG are probably the only SM chapter that can really capitalize on it. MoA Aggressors, MoR Primaris bike Chaplain, Invictors, SftS PF Intercessors. That is a lot high power melee attacks and even more anti infantry dakka to clear the chaff. The Chap can provide a mobile +2" charge litany.

 

But man, this sounds risky. Whiff your rolls and you are well within 12", so no bonuses for you, and the opponent will have a field day.

Goodness yes it is.

 

That bike chaplain though. With benediction of fury and mantra of strength, you've got a minimum of 6 attacks on the charge at S7, ap-2, 4D. 8 damage fairly consistently to vehicles. Pay the CP to fight again if necessary.

 

This is without considering whether the bike chaplain

Gets the +2 attack rule the outriders get.

 

Again - until we get a smash captain primaris equivalent, the bike chaplain can do a job for primaris armies

[superwill]

Awesome write-up Alcyon.

 

Eradicators are a tricky one. Coming in T2 and being a melta suicide squad, you’d want there to be a significant damage boost over some of the other options which can be active from T1 and either hide well or maintain manoeuvrability.

 

They’re certainly not a guarantee to kill a tank. At 11 damage on average against a T7 tank with no invuln, that actually leaves an almost 50% chance you roll below odds and don’t kill it. And that’s just light tanks. Even the impulsor, which is basically a light tank with an invuln, will still be on half its wounds. Anything medium, like a Leman Russ or a Land Raider, or anything heavy, like a knight or a baneblade, will not care that much. Even 3 squads of Eradicators will only half-health a knight on average. Of course at that stage you’re probably running them near a chapter master or a Lt and they’ll be doing more damage, but I guess the point is just that they’ll still need a lot of support for anti-tank. And where some of the other options will get many turns of shooting in, you’d expect that in most games the Eradicators are getting only one turn in classic suicide melta fashion.

 

In terms of the rush list with Chaplain, outriders, invictors, etc, that was how I ran my first game of 9th on the weekend. It was okay, because I went first. But it’s so hard now that we don’t know who’s going first... Do you drop the Invictor on their doorstep? There isn’t always perfect places to hide a big dreadnought, and he can always just get charged if you lose the roll for first. Hmmm...

[AenarIT]

Grav Devastators and Eradicators in my opinion.

Grav Devs in a Pod or with SftS/outflank, using the Gravitic Amplification strat. They deal a ton of damage for 120 points (183 with the pod).
Eradicators cost the same amount of points and are vastly undercosted right now. 12" (13.5" with long-range marksmen) melta range, T5 W3 each... They shoot twice so in a successor chapter with Master Artisans get 2 free rerolls to hit and 2 free rerolls to wound, statistically likely to force 6 saves. Insanely good right now. 

I'd put a cent on the Eradicators receiving an even better loadout when the multi part kit comes out. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Talking about RG specifically, not a successor combination, I find them rather counterintuitive at times. On the one hand, they want to stay 12" and 18" away to get their benefits, but on the other hand, they make one of the better board control and forward deploying chapters.

 

And actually, I am this close to saying that screw hard anti-tank. Armour isn't that good at the objective game. Use massed anti-infantry to clear all the chaff and then play a slow game by crippling one tank at a time. You should win by points. And if the armour is threatening at range, kill the chaff and use fast units like Shrike or Bikes to bad touch them. It'll keep them busy shooting into melee for long enough.

Having said that, the Lancer seems like a fun thing to include for RG, so let's see where that one goes.

 

Once we find out the full set of rules, the new Firestrike Turret and ATV can also be half-decent.

 

Firestrike Turret with Las. Boys clear the drop site and the big boom drop it. Almost thematic, if you ask me.

 

MM Invader ATV. It costs 85 for the MM variant and you can take 1-3 per FA slot. They can benefit from Stealthy and zip about quite nicely.

 

So many options and each seems just as mediocre as the next one :D

 

Edit: We are also forgetting one major point about RG. Most big vehicles like IK and IG tank commanders are Characters. During T2 and T3, most of your weapons become rather threatening against those.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Frater Cornelius

[Riddlesworth]

In terms of the rush list with Chaplain, outriders, invictors, etc, that was how I ran my first game of 9th on the weekend. It was okay, because I went first. But it’s so hard now that we don’t know who’s going first... Do you drop the Invictor on their doorstep? There isn’t always perfect places to hide a big dreadnought, and he can always just get charged if you lose the roll for first. Hmmm...

Charged or blown off the board. I crutched invictors in 8th. Increasingly for me over 4 or 5 games im struggling to get value out of them. In trialling a list on saturday where I've taken the 330 points spent on invictors and converting it to 15 intercessors and making an eliminator unit an eradicator unit. Maybe skewing into pure infantry or pure mech is the way forward again

Edited July 31, 2020 by Riddlesworth

[Alcyon]

Awesome write-up Alcyon.

 

Eradicators are a tricky one. Coming in T2 and being a melta suicide squad, you’d want there to be a significant damage boost over some of the other options which can be active from T1 and either hide well or maintain manoeuvrability.

 

They’re certainly not a guarantee to kill a tank. At 11 damage on average against a T7 tank with no invuln, that actually leaves an almost 50% chance you roll below odds and don’t kill it. And that’s just light tanks. Even the impulsor, which is basically a light tank with an invuln, will still be on half its wounds. Anything medium, like a Leman Russ or a Land Raider, or anything heavy, like a knight or a baneblade, will not care that much. Even 3 squads of Eradicators will only half-health a knight on average. Of course at that stage you’re probably running them near a chapter master or a Lt and they’ll be doing more damage, but I guess the point is just that they’ll still need a lot of support for anti-tank. And where some of the other options will get many turns of shooting in, you’d expect that in most games the Eradicators are getting only one turn in classic suicide melta fashion.

 

In terms of the rush list with Chaplain, outriders, invictors, etc, that was how I ran my first game of 9th on the weekend. It was okay, because I went first. But it’s so hard now that we don’t know who’s going first... Do you drop the Invictor on their doorstep? There isn’t always perfect places to hide a big dreadnought, and he can always just get charged if you lose the roll for first. Hmmm...

Thanks man, all credit to the Mathhammer web calculator. 

 

I think Eradicators are more reliable by far than the other options just because their potential output is so high. Keep in mind the math here doesn't factor in any re-rolls to hit or CP re-rolls, and with such a high ceiling I think your chances of getting a high damage roll on 2d6 pick the highest is very good even if you only get a couple shots through. But we'll have to see, I've yet to paint mine.

 

I agree with the aggressive approach too. From what I've been reading I think we don't want to focus as much on trying to storm the enemy DZ as much as trying to take and hold mid-board objectives, and I think that approach can leave us less exposed in comparison. Infiltrators and an Invictor in the mid-board might be tough to shift assuming they have cover, and the same for units we can MoA into similar areas. Then the Outriders etc. can back them up. If you do end up with first turn, you can look to close the range and try and box the enemy in, but I expect fewer attacks to be successful t1 generally and the main reason to take first turn is the leg up you get on objectives.

[Frater Cornelius]

What do we think about the Plasma Inceptors? 300pts for 6 dudes. Deep strike without CP, can hide in cover and land near a reroll bubble.

 

Same question about infiltrating Hellblasters. Is it finally their time to shine?

[AenarIT]

What do we think about the Plasma Inceptors? 300pts for 6 dudes. Deep strike without CP, can hide in cover and land near a reroll bubble.

 

Same question about infiltrating Hellblasters. Is it finally their time to shine?

Short term they’re very good for their points, imho.

When the codex comes out their plasma is likely to overheat on unmodified 1s (if plasma rules change following Indomitus rules) so I’m less intrigued by them as they’d kill themselves very quickly.

[Dracos]

6 Inceptors, 24 plasma shots = 6 “1s” each turn of shooting = 4 dead Inceptors

 

Assume you drop Shrike with them still equals 1 dead Inceptor for couple turns imo

 

Or the equivalent of killing 100 points of your own guys.

 

Having said that I still like the idea :)

 

 

 

PS: might as well kiss the reroll to hit on Artisans goodbye in October.

[superwill]

Have the new successor tactics been leaked, or you just mean that they probably won’t keep that option?

 

Such a shame that we can’t use MoA on the Biker Chaplain, he would’ve been perfect to throw forward.

[Dracos]

Since that's the confirmed change to the Salamander Chapter Tactic Master Artisan is based on yeah come October no rerolls for to hit just to wound

[Jacques Corbin]

Right now, the Lancer Gladiator looks really tempting. I hope it has the same move speed as an Impulsor. I like the idea of being able to reposition it swiftly.

 

Also, it seems we are discussing anti armor (that's right, no "U", cuz 'Murica) units in a bubble. I am thinking a Gladiator Lancer and a unit of Lasfusil Eliminators. The biggest issue with Eradicators is that if we infiltrate them, then after they fire, they either hug cover, or or are shot off the board. I mean, as soon as an opponent sees Eradicators in a Raven Guard list, they will not clump up their tanks/transports/monsters. Even if they do, after the Eradicators fire once, assuming first turn, then the Eradicators will draw every bit of fire the opponent can throw at them. A Gladiator Lancer has long range, and can reposition, and those sweet new rules for vehicles moving and firing heavy weapons. The Lasfusil Eliminators are static as well, but will be camping comfortably in a sniper nest in your deployment zone, and will have range, and hopefully great sight lines.

 

Also, what are our chaff clearing options? You all know what I mean. :cuss-ing Tau! Riptides with their Shielded Missile Drones, and Broadsides with Shield Drones, etc. I mean, tyranids also have bodyguard bugs for a lot of their monsters as well.

 

I also like the idea about "bad touching" enemy tanks. But now that they can shoot into melee, it's a dicier prospect than in previous editions.

 

Also, how much anti tank in our lists? Is the standard still enough to destroy 1 knight per turn, or are we just crippling enemy armor now? I mean vs Raven Guard, characters that can repair are at even greater risk than ever, so they are not a concern.

 

I think also, that in traditional Raven Guard lists, our opponents have had to deal with their own anti armor being "wasted" on a list that is all/mostly infantry. If we add the Gladiator Lancer to our lists, and it is the only vehicle, then it will draw a lot of fire.

[Karhedron]

What do we think about the Plasma Inceptors? 300pts for 6 dudes. Deep strike without CP, can hide in cover and land near a reroll bubble.

I am liking the look of Plasmaceptors. They pack quite a lot of punch for their points but apparently also have the Blast rule now. That means that against units with 6+ models, they get as much shooting as their bolter version which gives them some serious flexibility if you don't need to overcharge.

[Frater Cornelius]

After running against Harleys with 5 Starweavers, I can say the following. Seeing as I mostly had either S4 or S8, killing 2 4++ Starweaver is essentially like killing one traditional T7 10-11W transport.

 

Eradicators were gangsta. Given that the opponent had limited long ranged options, I didn't even bother to SftS on them. They took down whatever they looked at and considering that most other units were sitting on objectives on turn 0, the opponent had to let them be for a short while.

Are they good? Sure. Are they worth it over other HS options? That's a harder question.

 

Eliminators are good soft anti-tank. The sniper can knock off the last few wounds fairly reliably, but is definitely no replacement.

 

Aggressors can open cans very well in melee, but they have the average life expectancy of a Demon on Titan. They will open one transport and then die promptly afterwards.

 

Invictors have been answered almost immediately. I may have overextended against an army with 20+ fusion pistols. In theory, good soft anti tank, but shouldn't be a main event.

 

Bolters are good if focused and if Shrike is there to give rerolls. You can always open 1 or 2 T7 or lower cans by hosing them. This is your light anti tank. They won't open anything that's T8 or above.

 

Verdict? Transport spam is manageable, but we need around 2 reliable ranged heavy tank busters. Melee is nice and well, but works better with successors and a dedicated melee setup. I will mirror some of the sentiments above and say that the Lancer looks tempting.

 

Here's the other issue. Having enough boots on the ground is super important this edition. We can't go all out on super fancy Aggressor plays and not commit to a melee push. If we want to make good use of the RG CT, we need to consider going heavy on Troops and anti tank options with adequate range.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Frater Cornelius

[Jaipii]

Do we already have the points cost for Multi-melta attack bikes? If they are around the same points cost as the Outriders, I might convert a couple of those. Three of them would have the same durability as the Outriders and 3 Multi-meltas with no penalty to hit after moving thanks to new heavy weapon rules.

[Frater Cornelius]

Do we already have the points cost for Multi-melta attack bikes? If they are around the same points cost as the Outriders, I might convert a couple of those. Three of them would have the same durability as the Outriders and 3 Multi-meltas with no penalty to hit after moving thanks to new heavy weapon rules.

Yes, it is 80 for the Onslaught and 85 for the MM version. No datasheets yet though. For can take 1-3 per FA slot.

 

That's 255 for 3 MM shots. Is that really worth it, when Eradicators do 6 shots for 120? Maybe they have some other crazy rule, but as it stands, I am not convinced just yet.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Frater Cornelius

[Jaipii]

Hi Frater!

 

I was actually talking about the oldmarine Attack Bikes. The ones with the sidecar, not the ATV buggies. They seem to be 30pts/model in 9th without the multi-melta. So around 45-55pts/model in total?

Edited August 3, 2020 by Jaipii