MarineRaider Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Horus has been useless for the last 5-7 books. I forgot the name of the editor that sort of changed things around but on another forum he clearly stated as he was helping ADB editing MoM that E was not all that broken but a perfect body sitting on the throne. I remember asking/saying then what about all this Corpse Emperor that is stated in nearly every 40k book? His reply was " The New Man push was accepted by all the writers and the E was healed in body, his arm was not torn out from his fight etc etc. He was the new hotshot and was retconning everything....I wonder how much of that has happened and will continue to happen. I think with every book in HH/SOT and frankly the new 41k books they are moving in different directions than most ever thought would happen.I really don't care as I don't play the game and basically just read the books for entertainment. I think Loken and the others do sacrifice themselves, The E himself knew there was a reason Loken does not go to Titan, he must know of the importance of Loken during the siege. From what I have read in the siege books no one on the traitor side really believes Horus is going to win anyway lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5592987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Horus has been useless for the last 5-7 books. I forgot the name of the editor that sort of changed things around but on another forum he clearly stated as he was helping ADB editing MoM that E was not all that broken but a perfect body sitting on the throne. I remember asking/saying then what about all this Corpse Emperor that is stated in nearly every 40k book? His reply was " The New Man push was accepted by all the writers and the E was healed in body, his arm was not torn out from his fight etc etc. He was the new hotshot and was retconning everything....I wonder how much of that has happened and will continue to happen. I think with every book in HH/SOT and frankly the new 41k books they are moving in different directions than most ever thought would happen.I really don't care as I don't play the game and basically just read the books for entertainment. I think Loken and the others do sacrifice themselves, The E himself knew there was a reason Loken does not go to Titan, he must know of the importance of Loken during the siege. From what I have read in the siege books no one on the traitor side really believes Horus is going to win anyway lol. And yet in Saturnine he does if John Grammaticus and Oll Perrson do not arrive in Terra in time. John accidentally ended up on Terra six months too late and saw destruction on a scale he never saw before. The Cabal's plan was folly from the beginning Horus winning or not doesn't matter for the Chaos Gods. They only cared about taking the Webway Project and the Emperor out of the chessboard by any means necessary. If they don't care that Horus wins then wouldn't they be also indofferent to Abaddon winning? Feels like they are retconning Horus into the 40k version of the First Everchosen. Abaddon is just the latest in a line of Everchosens chosen by Chaos. Roomsky 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 (edited) It's still 8 months, not 6. All the character said was that it was "too late", but *not* too late for what exactly. For all we know, the result was simply mutual destruction, a super unfavorable thing, Terra being blown up, a sack rice on one of those orbital plates falling from the sky and causing a Jurassic-level extinction event, whatever. The Cabal vision specifically stated that Chaos would "burn itself out" - not that Chaos would be gone immediately if Horus won, but that Horus would reign for a little bit and Chaos would go down the gutter as humanity tore itself apart, thus weakening Chaos sufficiently to be barely an issue anymore. Please read Legion sometime soon. --------------- I honestly hope we'll get a real wrap-up anthology at the very least, once the 8th book is over. There are various scenes that could be repackaged, with added context and chronology, like the Two Metaphysical Blades and Leman Russ: The Great Wolf scenes on Terra, post-Siege. Other bits, like the varying reactions of the Blood Angels, split between Azkaellon, Raldoron and Amit, have been hinted at but not shown in detail. The survivor's guilt of Dorn and the Lion would be interesting to explore in the short term as well as in the future Iron Cage / Black Crusade / Caliban stuff. On the flipside, stuff like AD-B's Extinction could be a good fit for an anthology as well, alongside other stories showing the traitor fleets rushing to the Eye. You can showcase a lot of this briefly at the end of the final book, but I feel there are enough plotstrings, enough survivors and reactions that are worth highlighting. Edited August 28, 2020 by DarkChaplain Roomsky, Felix Antipodes and Scribe 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted August 28, 2020 Author Share Posted August 28, 2020 A wrap up would be appreciated, I'm sure that there are still side plots that could be cleaned up. I still think we could wrap this in 3 books, especially if they are 500 page door stoppers. Lions Gate, Palace, and Vengeful Spirit. Then something to offer closure for the loose ends (that didn't need to exist) and perhaps set a stage for a Scouring that I probably am not interested in at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 I don't need a Scouring "series" either, to be frank. So many stories already deal with key events or aspects of that era, that a few disparate novels to cover remaining key elements are good enough, whenever they happen. Hopefully there'll be a proper Grey Knights novel though, since they pop up not too far into the post-Siege era and go on a merry errand to close the Damnation Cache on Pythos (leaving Severian as Epimetheus behind - still bloody annoyed Swallow and editor both messed the name up in The Buried Dagger, listing it as Epithemius). There's a lot of potential in fast-tracking the post-Buried Dagger situation on hidden Titan towards one of their first large-scale missions. Lots of legacy HH characters having to cope with sitting out the finale on Terra and creating a new Chapter for a future they don't know anything about, following on from a present that is obscured from them, too, unable to interfere. There's got to be plenty of anxiety there, wondering if the Imperium is even still standing by the time they return to normal time. And the Damnation Cache is most certainly a Heresy plotline that'll be missing its midpoint until this is wrapped up. We know the beginning and the end (for now), but not the middle part that puts the lid on. mc warhammer and Noserenda 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 The Scouring could just be a setting/era they explore with various works rather than a long-running series Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted August 28, 2020 Author Share Posted August 28, 2020 The Scouring could just be a setting/era they explore with various works rather than a long-running series Yes I would think so. Nothing outside of the Dorn/Pert 'Rumble in the Siege II' followed by 'Death of Dorn, 1000 Stabs in the Dark' even strikes me as worth more than a single book. Don't even bother pretending to make a Scouring series, just declare it a setting and print a few stories. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTheLion Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 I'd rather see it naturally evolve out of something like the HH black books, with more detail as to the campaigns, how they're waged, maps, orders of battle, etc. Something more focused at encompassing the events in detail. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 While I don't think a long-running series is necessary for The Scouring, this era is absolutely full of potential to be explored. A lot of significant developments during this period. This is the birth of the Imperium as we know it, run by mortals, not transhumans or demigods. I think a Dune-style (less action, more politicking) approach would be perfect for something like the splitting of the Legions and Guilliman's ascension to the first Lord Commander and tensions among the surviving Loyalist Primarchs. Also the growth of nascent Imperial institutions could justify a few books each. The modern Imperium is a sham relative to the Emperor's true vision. This is the birth of that sham. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted August 28, 2020 Author Share Posted August 28, 2020 I think you have to get rid of the Primarchs first. With them around it's not quite the same. That's actually a nagging complaint I have about Dawn of Fire. Outside the side story of the girls adventure in paperwork, it's all just starting to bleed together with 30K. I don't want that gap bridged even further. Roomsky 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 it might still be cool to see the primarchs there and beginning to realise they can't hold it together shortly before their disappearance play with their realisation/denial that they were failed gods Scribe 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted August 28, 2020 Author Share Posted August 28, 2020 it might still be cool to see the primarchs there and beginning to realise they can't hold it together shortly before their disappearance play with their realisation/denial that they were failed gods It's my favourite stuff really. The quiet acceptance, the dawn of understanding that fundamentally it's all gone to cuss, and they were wrong the whole time. I don't know, I think I'm overtired and Dawn of Fire sat with me poorly, perhaps I'm just wanting the Heresy to find its 'point' and get to it. Dragging the whole of the 40k mythos through more of the Primarchs angst...just give me humans in hives trying to make it through the day. mc warhammer 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 yeah, fair call. i can agree that there's been primarch overexposure to the point where it can sometimes distract from the setting but i could see a short story where a primarch reflects that his time is past, he's failed and it's time to pass into memory would still interest me. a tears in rain type moment Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted August 28, 2020 Author Share Posted August 28, 2020 I think that is how both Russ and Corax were intended to go out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 yeah i typed up some stuff about corax and deleted it, since he's now on more of a vengeance vendetta thing...and he was the most likely to be written with on-the-nose angry melodrama russ seems a bit melancholic but takes it on the chin, like a champ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted August 28, 2020 Author Share Posted August 28, 2020 Yeah, the original arc for the Raven Guard was fine (the Poe stuff...come on, we dont need that) and the retcon absolutely ruined that for me. Legion Shattered - Check Corax desperate, broken, and over confident - Check Turn's his son's into monsters as he failed to do better than the Emperor - Why couldn't this have been the arc? Sorrowful, Regret, accepts his failure and moves on. - Thats an appropriate arc! Instead its...well what Thorpe pushed on us. Just unnecessary. Russ taking off could be an interesting story, I think it was discussed in a small way in Battle of the Fang? I seem to think Bjorn muses on it, but maybe thats another short somewhere. Roomsky 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobss Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 it's all just starting to bleed together with 30K. We lost that battle years ago You remember when Typhus starts ranting to Dragan in The Lords of Silence about Primarchs rubbishing everything? That's me. All the time Scribe and Roomsky 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted August 28, 2020 Author Share Posted August 28, 2020 it's all just starting to bleed together with 30K. We lost that battle years ago You remember when Typhus starts ranting to Dragan in The Lords of Silence about Primarchs rubbishing everything? That's me. All the time Yeah, we absolutely crossed an event horizon at some point, and now you may as well bail out the ocean with a tea cup. I think that's why Bloodlines hit me so well, or one reason. Just good, proper, older, 40K. No Primarchs, Custodians, Legions, Primaris, or even Guard! Just humanity, standing bleak in the darkness, nobody to blame but itself. (Everyone should read it!) Roomsky, Bobss, DukeLeto69 and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 it's all just starting to bleed together with 30K. We lost that battle years ago You remember when Typhus starts ranting to Dragan in The Lords of Silence about Primarchs rubbishing everything? That's me. All the time And it being the Black Legion's founding rationale. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 I'm calling Omegon rocking up for all of 5 minutes in the last book, walking up to Dorn, "I am Alpharius", drops him and walks off with a "for the Emperor" for good measure. And with the stuff that'll actually happen, very much looking forward to the Khans final big fights as long as they're well written. And Sigismund actually doing a Sigismund. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5593734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 I want to see when Sigismund becomes the Emperor's champion. I'm also one of the few crazy who are keeping a candle burning for Saul Tarvitz. I think he has to be reunited with Garro, on Terra, alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5594166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 (edited) That orbital bombardment at the end of Istvaan needs to have killed someone. It's supposed to be a tragedy, it stops being that when everyone we care about there pops up later saying "I'm actually ok, guys! Some plot armour rubble saved me from the weaponry capable of destroying planets!" EDIT: Not to mention that the ending of Tarvitz was so moving because he didn't hide from it. He and his warriors stood out in the open and faced their end with dignity. They didn't seek shelter, they didn't try to run. They faced their death head on, as proud warriors of the Emperor. To change that to "and the moment they were off-camera they absolutely legged it for cover and cowered in a bunker" entirely debases that scene, it's less than pointless. Edited August 31, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion Felix Antipodes, Brother Lunkhead, DarkChaplain and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5594168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 I hope that Sigismund is written by ADB. French did him not well and showed him to be weak until yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5594197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 I think Tarvitz should stay dead, but can live with his miraculous survival...just not my preference. I was also on the fence about Loken, but I think Tarik's demise was sufficient. I was expecting more from the Loken vs. Aximand duel though The fight didn't have to be super drawn out, but Loken deleted him a bit too quickly IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5594200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 I hope that Sigismund is written by ADB. French did him not well and showed him to be weak until yet. Where has John French written Sigismund to be weak? Roomsky 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366111-speculative-the-rest-of-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-5594215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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