Best Primarchs

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Horus even more so he was in fact a monster in every sense of the word.

 

its amusing the people that have to explain why not Sanguinius.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Scribe]

 

 

Despite liking Imperial Fists a lot and finding Rogal Dorn to be awesome (see this for details), I think that Sanguinius is the best.

He is the hope embodied, the one who remained loyal despite being so deeply flawed, the slayer of the dragon, Saint Michael of WH40k.

Best...at what.

 

Simple the best at existing? At being a Primarch? If so, why not he instead of Horus as Warmaster and de-facto leader of the Crusade while the Emperor retreated?

Horus and Sanguinius discuss this in Fear to Tread.

 

Sanguinius is too noticeably "different" from humanity to be the figurehead of the Imperium of Humanity.

 

Rik

 

 

Yes, I read it, and it rings hollow. He's worshiped as a Saint in current (40K) times, and was set up by Rob in his little side show as the new Emperor.

[Scammel]

Horus even more so he was in fact a monster in every sense of the word.

 

its amusing the people that have to explain why not Sanguinius.

It's not Sanguinius because he's not even alive in the most famous artwork depicting him.

 

I'm not even sure why threads like this end up being controversial. It's clearly Horus, then Sanguinius has some sort of X-factor about him that may place him a pip above the rest, then the obvious authorial intent is that everyone else has their own strengths, weaknesses and psychodrama that makes the whole thing a wash.

[Xenith]

 

It has been some time since I started to get interested in the infantry too, at this moment I am very passionate about the figure of the primarch. So I asked myself, who are the most powerful primarchs, and what are their abilities?

 

 

OP, you started a discussion on a 99% subjective topic then disappeared.

 

Please can you clarify what you mean by "best". As you can see, people's interpretation of 'best' also varies. 

 

There is a vast, vast amount of literature on the nature and abilities of the various primarchs - from what you have read, what is your opinion on the question you posed to yourself?

 

As this seems to be pretty much a VS thread on something totally subjective which has been covered a thousand times, I'll be keeping an eye on it. 

 

PS. We all know it's Sanguinius. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Xenith

[smileyjim]

Curze could take any of them bar the angel

[Karhedron]

Curze could take any of them bar the angel

When he fought Sanguinius, it was a stalemate. When he jumped Dorn, he clobbered him. When the Lion came after him prepared, he broke Curze's back. Circumstances play a big role in it.

 

I agree that there is no absolute ranking. Horus' elevation to Warmaster had much to with him being found first giving him a certain seniority plus his charisma and leadership skills. It seems there was no one else the majority of other Primarchs would have followed. He had the right balance of skill and charisma to be first among equals.

[Whitelion]

sorry guys, i haven't disappeared, my job keeps me very busy, and in the workplace i am not allowed to write, now i'm on my lunch break ( at 3pm today....yes i'm a slave) and i can write.

 

My question was intended for a 1v1 match, considering individual physical and psychic abilities.

 

I didn't want to create a problematic discussion, it's just that I know very little or nothing about the primarchs and the infantry, and I wanted to post a topic to find out more by comparing the various combat powers of the various primarchs, based on their achievements.

 

I thought the strongest fighters were alpha plus level psychics

[Xenith]

Ok, so in terms of the best fighters - there are a few Primarch battle in the lore, some of which have been described in this thread. bear in mind that if you havent read much of the lore, these are massive, massive spoilers. It's actually pretty hard to use the lore, because the person that wins the fight is whoever is needed to drive the plot forwards. Example is Horus is one of the Imperiums best fighters, but he gets bloodied by a possessed guardsman with a knife. 

 

Horus (empowered) > Sanguinius (Siege of terra)

Fulgrim > Ferrus (istvaan)

Johnson > Curze (thramas)

Curze > Dorn (preeresy)

Russ + null maidens > Magnus (burning of prospero)

Daemon Angron + Lorgar Ascended > Guilliman (nunceria)

Normal Angron > Russ (night of the wolf)

Lion ~ Russ (The lion and the wolf)

Jaghati ~ Mortarion (Path of Heaven?)

 

My own personal opinion on top 3 in a straight fight with psychic powers would be:

 

Horus (empowered) > Sanguinius (Rage Mode) > Daemon Angron

[Dwango]

Now if you want a completely unbiased view, one that was no way influenced by recent/upcoming releases, you can take a look at the 3 warcom articles here for in game effects

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/?s=Primarch+vs

 

If you mean 'in universe' then I leave it to my frater brethren as they will have much more knowledge than I. Although, as mentioned already, this is very very subjective.

[Rik Lightstar]

1 on 1 with no outside assistance, in an "arena" type environment, with all their physical and psychic abilities?

 

If it's before any Chaos type empowerment too.

 

It's likely that Magnus would be able to dominate almost all of them. With Russ as a possible exception.

 

If there are no psychic powers involved, then my money would be on Angron in an Arena Deathmatch.

 

Now, if it's in any other type of situation then there's too many unknowns.

 

In an environment with lots of cover, Corax or Nighthaunter.

 

With their Legions to back them up, Guilliman, Horus or the Lion would out-general the others.

 

Rik

[Scribe]

"The demands of the novel will dictate the result."

 

That said, any list that doesn't have Horus at 1, Angron/Sang at 2 or 3, is flawed, multiple books have stated that those are the in universe opinions of the Primarchs in a mythical 1 vs 1.

[Ishagu]

Tier S Primarchs: These guys win wars as well as the hearts and minds of the populace. They smite Daemons, Xenos and other warriors without a problem, but that's only one of their many talents. They effortlessly dominate the political landscape in their own way, and get what they want.

 

-Horus

-Guilliman

-Sanguinius

 

Tier A Primarchs: Great General and leaders, but lack something the above have. This could be flexibility in war, combat or shortfalls in charisma, personality or stability.

 

-Dorn

-The Lion

-Ferrus

-Magnus

-Fulgrim

 

Tier B Primarchs: These Primarchs lack certain useful attributes. They might be great generals or charismatic leaders in war, but they lack the vision to go beyond that.

 

-Vulkan

-Corax

-Russ

-Khan

 

Tier C Primatchs: Selfish fools who lack the mental fortitude or stability compared to their brothers. They are defined by their flaws, hypocrisy, unreliability, personality failings, noticeable achievement shortcomings, or beliefs.

 

-Mortarion

-Lorgar

-Perturabo

-Alpharius

-Curze

 

Useless Primarchs: Their contribution even during the Crusade was an overall drop in the performance to the effectiveness of their Legion. No charisma, no personality, no Tactical acumen.

 

-Angron

 

 

PS: A case can be made that Lorgar is a higher tier, as his ability to manipulate events and his lasting legacy cannot be understated. Unfortunately he himself was manipulated by lesser men.

 

In terms of best fighter, this is a useless category in most cases. Obviously the Daemon Primarchs are stronger. Guilliman has now seen more action than his loyalist brothers due their MIA/KIA status, and has more impressive victories over notable opponents than any of them. This includes Greater Daemons, Daemon Primarchs, etc (He's triumphed over invincible Daemons of Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch, Mortarion himself and even Magnus). During the Great Crusade era the Lion, Sanguinius, Horus and Russ were probably the best fighters.

Angron, despite being a near unbeatable berserker, cannot claim this title as he is easy to trap or out-think. Basically he would lose to any of his brothers outside of a straight duel in a fighting pit. This isn't a likely scenario in actual combat.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Ishagu

[Scribe]

Angron should be at C, and Dorn should be at A or Rob should be at B, but otherwise I like Ishagu's list from a 'total view' perspective.

[Ishagu]

Guilliman has the most useful talent by far. Administration and micro management on a galactic scale.

 

Dorn is great at defensive warfare. Not as valuable.

 

The topic asks who the best is. There are MANY criteria, of course, but Guilliman is probably the only one who can run the entire Imperium whilst organising a Great Crusade sized warplan. Basically he stepped into the Emperor's shoes, by himself, and is getting the job done. None of his brothers could do this as well. The lion would fail on the political battlefield, and does not inspire trust or loyalty.

 

Sanguinius was so Angelic and majestic, that he inspired devotion like no one else. Horus was probably the best politician of the bunch - again this was his most useful attribute. The others had failings or shortcomings, or simply weren't as effective in the ways that matter most. Both Horus and Sanguinius would best Guilliman in a duel, but could they defeat him in a war? Probably not.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Ishagu

[Scribe]

You downplay what else Dorn was doing, or you overemphasize Rob's ability. All but the cognitively impaired Primarchs could do Admin work. They are all insanely gifted mentally, and Admin work is just Admin work.

 

I think Dorn and Rob are far closer to the same, given equal opportunity and motivation.

[Ishagu]

You downplay what else Dorn was doing, or you overemphasize Rob's ability. All but the cognitively impaired Primarchs could do Admin work. They are all insanely gifted mentally, and Admin work is just Admin work.

 

I think Dorn and Rob are far closer to the same, given equal opportunity and motivation.

And all could fight like no one else, or get angry like no one else, Yes.

 

Of course they could all do a better job than any regular human, even the aloof ones like Corax or the Khan, if they had to. There's a reason why Ultramar shames every other Primarch, and even the Lion felt jealousy at Guilliman's accomplishments.

 

Let's not forget that even when it comes to War, under Guilliman the Ultramarines had the greatest number of victories and in combination with lower losses than most.

 

Dorn is close to Guilliman, but the Iron Cage incident showed his shortcomings. He threw his sons away over vengeance. This showcased that, unfortunately, he can be quite short sighted.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Ishagu

[WrathOfTheLion]

I agree for the most part, but would put Guilliman below S at A.

 

He is lacking the charisma of Horus or Sanguinius, who could inspire their own brothers to follow them in a conflict.

 

He is also comparatively weaker in martial ability and possibly ability to prosecute a war, with Jonson and Horus decisively better.

Edited September 7, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Ishagu]

I agree for the most part, but would put Guilliman below S at A.

 

He is lacking the charisma of Horus or Sanguinius, who could inspire their own brothers to follow them in a conflict.

I don't think he lacked Charisma. He's pretty inspiring to all in the current setting. I feel that some of his brothers wouldn't follow him out of jealousy more than anything.

 

Horus was definitely the most charismatic, but he also had significant insecurities that were exploited in his downfall. This lower mental stability is why he isn't greater than Guilliman or Sanguinius.

 

We can't understate this. Guilliman KNOWS the Emperor didn't love him or his brothers, he KNOWS the horrible truths of the Warp, he experienced more betrayals and souls crushing feelings, but he didn't waiver, and it didn't affect his thinking. Ultimately he's more reliable than Dorn and he never became self destructive.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Ishagu

[Scribe]

A returned Dorn would be just as inspiring to the Imperium. WrathOfTheLion is right, Rob was not seen as a leader of his peers, Horus, and Sanguinius could have been or were.

 

Horus and Sanguinius should be the only 2 at the top.

 

I'd also drop Ferrus to B I think.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Scribe

[Ishagu]

Ferrus was super reliable and trustworthy. Mentally he was a rock too. That's a great benefit to everyone around him. Edited September 7, 2020 by Ishagu

[Scribe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was not stable, got himself out of position, was terrible to his mortal troops, and ended up isolated and decapitated.

[Ishagu]

I forget how the book described it, but I recall it as him being pinsired between traitors. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Scribe]

Yeah, I thought it was he didnt fall back when he was supposed to, saw those that did as weak (The Flesh is Weak) and the rest is history.

 

There was also a short, where he (or his legion?) was shown to be terrible to the human troops under his command, because again, the Flesh is Weak.

 

Either way, hair splitting at this point. Good discussion. :D

[Ishagu]

That flesh is weak thing is not part of Ferrus's character at all. That became the defining ideology of the Iron Hands after his death and is actually divergent from what he intended.

[Scribe]

That flesh is weak thing is not part of Ferrus's character at all. That became the defining ideology of the Iron Hands after his death and is actually divergent from what he intended.

 

Ehh..some of that is retcon when they decided to push things differently around what, 6th edition Space Marines? He absolutely had part of that cold demeanor, but I admit I have not read the Primarch's entry for him.