Charlo Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Tbf, his indomitible spirit was just simply worn down over the course of the Heresy. Loss after loss, little purpose left in a war he was no longer sure why he was fighting. Typhus' "trap" to turn the Legion fully to Nurgle was the straw that broke the camel's back in Mortarion's instance. And in that moment he lost his mind and became a being of raw, unfathomable Chaos. Which is what makes him so cool an interesting. His flaws were brought to the forefront and ultimately took over his character. The big wings are just a distraction from that :) Special Officer Doofy, Blindhamster and quasistellar 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 I agree. Its entirely subjective. And yes was a typo for khan. I can only go on material i have read and from the various wiki sources and my own "stereotypical" views on the legions. But i think my list fits my viewpoint rather well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Officer Doofy Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 He ran, with Guilliman screaming for him to stand and fight. He was also only willing to battle Guilliman if he was able to trap him with warp magic, not even a clean fight. Mortarion was a hypocrite who advocated strength and endurance ahead of everything, and yet when he was truly tested he gave up and pledged his soul to Chaos. He also fully embraces warp magic even though he was the biggest opponent of it, and is very petty on top, unable to let go of the past. Overall strong of body but very weak of spirit and character. He did "run", but again it was not because of Guilliman at all, it was because of Nurgle asking/telling him to. He is a warp entity now, and was always psychic, so those are tools at his disposal, yes. I admitted he was hypocrite in my first sentence about Mortarion, that actual adds to his character. His whole downfall and transition of taking on the traits of those he despised is cool and the making of a classic villian. You keep talking about character like it only applies to the righteous. Character makes someone unique and interesting, something Guilliman lacks completely. Sorry his uniqueness is his administration and logistics skills, kind of makes him by far the most boring primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) I don't recall Nurgle telling him to do anything. He fled because his plan was ruined and the Daemons were losing their bottle. Also he knew Guilliman could kill him for real. It's ironic that Mortarion didn't like doing the bidding of the Emperor, yet instead gave himself up to being a complete slave in totality for all eternity to Nurgle. And he clearly wasn't indomitable if he was worn down over a relatively short period. The whole Heresy took place over 7 years, and the Crusade before that was only two centuries at most. Certainly not an impressive feat of mental resilience from an immortal being bestowed with incredible genetic gifts. Guilliman has already suffered through more in the current setting, alone and isolated. As I said, Mortarion was very weak in terms of spirit and character, and is arguably a coward on top. All pretty poor aspects if you judge him - but being a petty, cowardly hypocrite are good traits for a villain to have! Not every bad guy in 40k is a tragic hero, and that's perfectly fine. Edited September 10, 2020 by Ishagu Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Officer Doofy Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) Nevermind. You're just straight up trolling my dad can beat up your dad at this point. Edited September 10, 2020 by Putrid Choir quasistellar, Charlo, Gederas and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) Not at all. I don't care about the martial prowess of the Primarchs. It's their least valuable attribute. I'm outright stating that Mortarion is a self obsessed, hypocritical and petty villain. He boasted about his endurance, Nurgle then put him to the test and he failed. He could have chosen the freedom of death, instead he chose eternal slavery - something that he had also complained about prior. The setting needs villains like this as much as anything. I like this about him - there is ultimately no redeeming attributes to him. Edited September 10, 2020 by Ishagu BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTheLion Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Characters do not need redeemable attribures to be interesting. I play Word Bearers, I know this ;). Guilliman as well has some insecurities weighing him down. However, I think he need only endure until another loyalist primarch returns. The loyalist ones in general will stand higher and stronger now. Even though they do not have the warp power that an ascended daemon primarch may have, they will organize and prop each other up. The daemon primarchs will only ever have tenuous alliances, if not fully at war. This is why it is vastly easier to return daemon primarchs to the setting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 I'm sorry Ishagu, but you're just showing and utterly fundamental misunderstanding of Mortarions character here. He is 100% tragic. The Death Guard are a grand tragedy, part of the grander one in the Heresy. Have you read the Buried Dagger? If not, I suggest getting on it - it's the best look at Mortarion of all the books and really shows the depth of his despair and succumb to Nurgle. It gives a lot more context than "they got sick on the way to Terra lulz". Raktra 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 "Best Primarchs", six pages long... Hmmm, naaah... Raktra 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) I'm sorry Ishagu, but you're just showing and utterly fundamental misunderstanding of Mortarions character here. He is 100% tragic. The Death Guard are a grand tragedy, part of the grander one in the Heresy. Have you read the Buried Dagger? If not, I suggest getting on it - it's the best look at Mortarion of all the books and really shows the depth of his despair and succumb to Nurgle. It gives a lot more context than "they got sick on the way to Terra lulz". I have no doubt he felt crushing despair, but that's not a unique feeling in the setting of Warhammer that no one else has experienced, and lesser people have dealt with it better. After he fell to Nurgle he spent 6 thousand years searching the warp for his xenos "father" just so he could torture his soul. This is the kind of spite we're dealing with here. Mortartion is not a fallen hero. He was arrogant and deluded before his fall, and he actually believed he was in the running to be the warmaster. For the record I actually really like Mortarion (in the way I like a comic book villain or a Sith character in Star Wars), but I don't empathise with him and his point of view is ridiculous and petty compared to some of his brothers. Edited September 10, 2020 by Ishagu BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitelion Posted September 10, 2020 Author Share Posted September 10, 2020 a question, a user on reddit wrote that in the Vulkan Lives novel, it is stated multiple times that this Vulkan is the most powerful of the primarchs ... based on what to be said? I mean, what powers does Vulkan have to put him above the others to even state this in a novel? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snazzy Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) Here’s the order in which the Emperor discovered his Primarchs: Fascinating that Dorn was discovered 7th, while being head of the 7th. Destiny! Didn't read the whole thread but I was just reading about Konrad in the wikis sort of for the first time, and I have to say, he really seems--by almost any metric--one of the least successful primarchs. Ruled his homeworld by fear and violence, hated his own legion for the murderers and criminals they were, blew up his own homeworld, betrayed the Imperium and got taken out by a human assassin he knew was coming. Not the most stellar primarch CV. He was haunted by barely understood prescience and lived as a wild animal and vigilante terrorist on a nightmare world of perpetual near darkness. Of course he didn't accomplish much. Edited September 10, 2020 by Snazzy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 I get the impression that the night hunter had some sort of prescience based sickness or insanity that got worse as time went on. There was a period of time where he was lucid and actually carried out the Crusade to plan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 He has no redeeming values. Mort killed half his legion and destroyed his home world. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTheLion Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Wasn't Barbarus destroyed by the 1st Legion along with Chemos? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Here’s the order in which the Emperor discovered his Primarchs: Fascinating that Dorn was discovered 7th, while being head of the 7th. Destiny! Bear in mind that the list of discovery orders is occasionally at odds with the novels. BL didn't write down the order in which the Primarchs were discovered before starting the HH series. Consequently, some of the novels contradict each other slightly. The list is an attempt to straighten things out but is imperfect. Mercy of the Dragon and Lord of Drakes both suggest that Vulkan was discovered much later than Ferrus rather than shortly after. In Mercy of the Dragon, Ferrus is an experienced general who is tutoring Vulkan in much the same way that Horus tutored Fulgrim. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Curze knew when and how everyone he met was going to die, his prescience led him to see the worst outcomes of any individual over their better path as he was never taught otherwise, he probably learned to take it this way when he was bringing himself up and saw what happened when he let someone live. His prescience was also somewhat similar to Sevatars that allowed him to mostly evade capture or getting shanked by Sanguinius, lord knows why it didn't work with the Lion but writers. Whilst the active part of that ability probably made him sick, as it did Sevatar and Talos, the level of criminal insanity was Probably due to overexposure to his own legion (thankyou Skraivok). However, when it comes to Death, Curze always knows. Always. In addition to answer to OP he had some kind of EMP and shadow merging, and maybe a bit of supernatural speed depending on Author. Whitelion 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitelion Posted September 10, 2020 Author Share Posted September 10, 2020 Was Curze's foresight also used in battle to predict with what kind of blows and when he would be hit? If so he would be a tough opponent to beat, if I know where the punch goes and what kind of punch it comes to me then I can avoid it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Was Curze's foresight also used in battle to predict with what kind of blows and when he would be hit? If so he would be a tough opponent to beat, if I know where the punch goes and what kind of punch it comes to me then I can avoid it There's him fighting the Lion, once to a standstill, once got his neck slit, and had his back broke He also nearly killed both Guilliman and the Lion but they escaped because of a maguffin Then he fought Hulk Vulkan and subsuequently a daemon and came out ok, but got sparked by regular Vulkan However he went blow for blow with Sanguinius and again that was a stalemate due to the prescience of both. It works when the writer wants it to, it's hard to quantify Whitelion 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Sang wasn’t wearing any armor when Kurse tried to jank him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Sang wasn’t wearing any armor when Kurse tried to jank him. I've spelled it correctly for you above, if you can manage the name of 18 other primarchs right, Curze isn't a challenge. Meanwhile, it doesn't matter if either was armoured or not, Sanguinius has bloody wings, neither was getting the upper hand, it was their mutual love of predicting the future Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Wasn't Barbarus destroyed by the 1st Legion along with Chemos? Yup, and he loved his sons that remained with him after Istvaan. Can only think the mixup is with Pert. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Sang wasn’t wearing any armor when Kurse tried to jank him. I've spelled it correctly for you above, if you can manage the name of 18 other primarchs right, Curze isn't a challenge. Meanwhile, it doesn't matter if either was armoured or not, Sanguinius has bloody wings, neither was getting the upper hand, it was their mutual love of predicting the future Don’t have a tizzy. It showed how underhanded he was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Sang wasn’t wearing any armor when Kurse tried to jank him.I've spelled it correctly for you above, if you can manage the name of 18 other primarchs right, Curze isn't a challenge.Meanwhile, it doesn't matter if either was armoured or not, Sanguinius has bloody wings, neither was getting the upper hand, it was their mutual love of predicting the future Don’t have a tizzy. It showed how underhanded he was. What showed how underhanded he was was dangling an unconscious Azkaellon out the window. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 I’m glad M’Shen deep sixed him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366353-best-primarchs/page/6/#findComment-5598951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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