UM Aura's getting "Cored".

[Prot]

So it's not unique to us, and hopefully it pertains to all armies of 40K, but it's definitely not a positive change for the potency of Marines.

 

I don't want to get into a debate on whether it's good for 40K or not, but rather how do you anticipate changing your HQ builds, or even your army builds:

 

1. Do you foresee changing HQ choices now that they can't benefit from their own inspiring auras? 

+ I probably will drop Calgar  unless there is a notable drop in points.

 

2. Do you foresee changing your lists? 

+ I see making two types of lists... some with min Core units, with no adherence to a "Core Aura" ability. IE: Fast, all over the place. Lots of vehicles. And another list, heavily (almost exclusively?) Core based.

 

 

 

Just curious how you guys see this affecting your list building.

[emperorpants]

Marines are certainly taking a hit with this. That said, this is how I hope it will shake out:

 

-Guillimans aura unchanged. He still buffs all hits and wound rolls of 1 for everything. Would help make him relevant in 9th and worth his points.

-Calgars aura unchanged. He buffs hit rolls for everything.

-chapter master upgrade. Re roll all hit rolls for core units.

 

This would allow for more granularity in buffs and make each variant worth taking. Guilliman has the best aura bar none. Calgar plus LT can no longer match it. You pay for it to the tune of 380 points though.

 

Calgar has a great aura that you pay less for, but even with a LT it can never totally match Guilliman. He is middle of the road in points cost.

 

Chapter master upgrade would be the weakest, but the cheapest points wise. Good if you are fielding mostly core units.

 

If it all shakes out this way I'll be pretty happy, as it would be a good way to differentiate strategic skill.

 

As to how I'll run my army, it all depends on how core units shake out. Depending on how many units get core, I may switch to more infantry heavy than I normally would.

 

If Guilliman, Calgar, etc get their auras nerfed to core only then they absolutely will not ever be in serious consideration and not see the light of day, unless they get point drops or buffs in other ways.

Edited September 16, 2020 by emperorpants

[Captain Idaho]

It's mildly entertaining to me, since GW is making changes to the game along the lines of units and methods of play I usually exhibit. Are they watching me at all times? Can they see me typing this now? I'm not convinced that isn't the case.

 

Anyway, what I'm saying is my army doesn't rely on shooting units that get bolstered by character auras. Sure, I had shooting units, but as an example my old tournament list had 2 Hunters (in-built rerolls), Dreads and Land Speeders all that gave fire support whilst my more aggressive elements careened up the table to get to grips with objectives and bolters, complete with characters.

 

Where a unit needs rerolls I can't give with a character I use Sons of Guilliman or Avenge the Fallen to spread my coverage. Wisdom of the Ancients likely won't work on non-Core going forward but is an option.

 

In 9th I'm enjoying a solid core of Terminators (and haven't even got the extra wound yet!) who do a lot of fighting and thus often end up being assaulted. They are often supported by Dreadnoughts of various types and additional infantry where possible. This means a Captain in amongst them is very useful and not wasted.

 

Since it's very much a frontline situation for the Captain, he needs to be tough and dish out some damage in return. This could mean a biker Captain with Vengeance of Ultramar, or a Terminator Captain.

 

Variants of this would include Aggressors and the Indomitus Captain I imagine.

 

So in short, a combined arms response that provides critical rerolls across the board where needed is my staple and I think Ultramarines can do very well with that.

 

Core units will get bonuses that others don't thus be very possibly useful compared to the usually more favoured elites. Early days but maybe.

[Ishagu]

If our unique characters don't receive significant price reductions or rule alterations then I simply don't see the value in them.

 

What upsets me is the fact that GW haven't announced new supplements for the Ultras and other chapters, and from experience the FAQs won't take the place of these supplements. I fear the only updates will be to change the auras to match the new codex, and to tidy up any confusion.

 

I'm not upset about the direction, but if experiensive characters are less worthwhile then this chapter becomes less special.

If GW don't create compelling rules I'll simply play my army as a different or custom chapter with superior rules and strats.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

If our unique characters don't receive significant price reductions or rule alterations then I simply don't see the value in them.

What upsets me is the fact that GW haven't announced new supplements for the Ultras and other chapters, and from experience the FAQs won't take the place of these supplements. I fear the only updates will be to change the auras to match the new codex, and to tidy up any confusion.

I'm not upset about the direction, but if experiensive characters are less worthwhile then this chapter becomes less special.

If GW don't create compelling rules I'll simply play my army as a different or custom chapter with superior rules and strats.

What I don't understand is, assuming Guillimans aura is nerfed, why GW thinks he is worth 380 points. Especially if the silent king rumors are true and he provides all those awesome things while being cheaper than Guilliman. I mean, what could the reasoning be?

[Ishagu]

They are known to leave units in limbo until they get updated in a new book, unfortunately.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have played many games with my smurfs... I have used Guilliman and Calgar often but not always so to me it’s not a big deal plus I play all infantry so no issues with most vehicles not being core units. The "Chapter Master" is the current boogeyman on the internet everyone loves to hate but with the way the new missions work now castles are done and I see lots of games with no Chapter Master. I have never used one for Iron Hands and its never been an issue - for me there are better characters to choose from. Guilliman and Calgar both hit on 2+ - I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. Plus you need some serious beat sticks to counter tough enemy melee units - I’ve seen so many games where a generic Chapter Master got trashed coz he was cheap as chips Primaris Captain with just a power sword for melee... lolz.
 

There are so many good things we know are coming in the new codex... this just doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to me and as has been noted we have lots of nice tricks to generate rerolls... prolly more than any other faction I reckon.

 

Another thing is this will affect a lot of factions and if ninth is like eighth the flood gates are gonna with a lot of new codices being released.

[L30n1d4s]

Sons of Guilliman should give a specific character rerolls of 1s when you need it (i.e. a critical round of combat), just will cost a CP now.

[Aspecti]

Unless they change the relic storm bolter & Paragon of War warlord trait interaction, I won't be changing anything. I've never used Calgar or Guilliman and aside from using a Master of the Forge to buff vehicles, I don't really rely on auras. In any case, I'll just wait for the codex and see what changes I have to make when we get the book. 

[Captain Idaho]

There's plenty of flavour to taking Ultramarines aside from special characters. Everyone is entitled to play how they want but I urge Ultramarines fans to try alternative ways to get the most character from their games before giving up on them.

 

If it's rerolls and bonus to hit you want, we do get quite a few from non-Captain models too - Avenge the Fallen, Wisdom of the Ancients, Sons of Guilliman, Chaplains, Masters of the Forge (could change), Seal of Oath...

[emperorpants]

There's plenty of flavour to taking Ultramarines aside from special characters. Everyone is entitled to play how they want but I urge Ultramarines fans to try alternative ways to get the most character from their games before giving up on them.

If it's rerolls and bonus to hit you want, we do get quite a few from non-Captain models too - Avenge the Fallen, Wisdom of the Ancients, Sons of Guilliman, Chaplains, Masters of the Forge (could change), Seal of Oath...

Sadly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if all those sources of re rolls get faqed to only buff core units as well. Regardless, I'll still play Ultras. But I think we can all agree that it's looking pretty grim for our special characters. If it's as bad as feared it really sucks for people who like to play special named characters. It just seems like there are better ways GW could have gone about nerfing marines you know?

 

Still, I also say don't give up on Ultras. Nothing stays bad forever, and even if we end up sucking (Which we might not! Remember we don't have the full picture yet) after the codex drops, it won't stay that way. Just look at 8th. Marines sucked and then became great. We will have our time in the sun again. I just hope it lasts longer than a year this time. Those pesky Eldar got to be great for how many editions? Lol.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe if we take more Core units we will be okay? Terminators and bikes confirmed to have Core, so I believe it's likely Aggressors and maybe even Centurions and the veteran units will likely have Core too.

[Riddlesworth]

Unless they change the relic storm bolter & Paragon of War warlord trait interaction, I won't be changing anything. I've never used Calgar or Guilliman and aside from using a Master of the Forge to buff vehicles, I don't really rely on auras. In any case, I'll just wait for the codex and see what changes I have to make when we get the book. 

 

I just started playing with Captain Dakka. at best his re-roll aura affects him and a screening unit of outriders or inceptors. If that combo is still around, I don't mind not getting the re-rolls. If bolter fusilades goes away for successors I might even play ultramarines proper.

[superwill]

Marines are certainly taking a hit with this. That said, this is how I hope it will shake out:

 

-Guillimans aura unchanged. He still buffs all hits and wound rolls of 1 for everything. Would help make him relevant in 9th and worth his points.

-Calgars aura unchanged. He buffs hit rolls for everything.

-chapter master upgrade. Re roll all hit rolls for core units.

 

*snip*

 

Surely that would be way, way worse an outcome than how it is right now? The main problem at the moment is that it's kind of lame and dorky to have a mighty captain sit cowering in a corner just so he can inspire some tanks. Lists that encourage people to have a PRIMARCH or even the mighty Marneus sitting in a corner is even worse. And if they did change it to what you're suggesting, you can bet your sweet bippy that's exactly what would happen. People wouldn't start running core units, everyone would just be running RG hiding in a corner surrounded by massive guns. That's kind of exactly what they're trying to get away, not push people even further into.

 

I say this as a fella whose most successful tournament list ever was running Trajann and a banner babysitting 3 telemons and 2 caladius'. Was it effective? Well yeah I went 5-0 at a tourney with almost 100 people. But when the mighty Trajann only swung his axe in 1 out of 5 games, that's kind of lame and not how it should be. This change forces the game to be way more fluffy. Competitive lists will adapt, but fluff wins and I love it.

[Prot]

Well I don't think that Guilliman is cheap enough to sit in a corner inspiring other units (and not himself). It just doesn't make sense.

 

With Trajann (which I have played many times myself) you are almost creating the same scenario. But he's far cheaper and is more fragile, and less punchy than Guilliman (Trajann desperately needs an axe update).

 

I do agree with the rest of the sentiment though; that is to say the build I am favouring (as mentioned in my opening post) is to get a dirt cheap, HQ that never engages opponents. 

 

This is VERY reminiscent of old 40K years ago (3rd-4th edition era). It worked. I won a pretty large tournament back then with that ideal and I think with the Core idea, it's going to make more sense to put the big guns/big swords on the Core units, and hide the HQ's behind that wall. Thus it won't make sense to take named characters in that role (unless they further enhance core units with a special named character relic or something.)

 

I think this premise of "Core" units getting Aura help only is a good thing, however not allowing characters the benefit has a real downside to the game in my opinion. 

 

The good news for me is it actually puts me in a stronger position to field my cheap Indomitus Captain. 

 

I personally believe a piece of this Core idea comes from the limitation of -1 to hit in 9th. There isn't a situation where you will be facing -3 to hit anymore. But at the same time the -1 to hit ability on any unit now gets a larger benefit (Against NON-Core units (no rerolls?) and characters)

 

Core rules and Guilliman is a bit of a different discussion, because it goes far outside this aura change. I keep saying this but I keep facing Tau that are using -massive- damage army builds in my meta where I would be crazy to use anything over 150 points with 'monster' or 'vehicle' status. (Those units just auto disappear now.) Guilliman's issues are bigger than the Core conversation now. (imho).

 

This whole Core thing makes me more inclined to play my Deathwatch or White Scars where by habit I build very large 'core' unit based armies, and super cheap HQ's.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Prot

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I agree with that - either go cheap with your Captain in a support role or go for something that can trade blows on the front line.

 

I suspect it'll mostly be non-Vehicle units that are Core, so I'm confident our infantry will get bonuses from character support.

 

Of course it sucks characters don't get their own rerolls. Combat effectiveness will definitely decrease for them, though I'm sure we're just not seeing the whole picture and will see other benefits etc.

 

Guilliman might need a points decrease, but that is potentially a subject for elsewhere.

[emperorpants]

To expound on what Prot was saying about Guilliman having issues, the core thing adds to Guillimans issues. The more I think about it the more sure I am that he too will be "cored." One of the reasons he has been pointed so high is his aura. He has since had that aura totally nerfed into the ground so far that it just popped out in Hong Kong (If we are counting being cored). His melee has always been strong, but that has taken a hit too now. Being unable to re roll his attacks and wound rolls of 1 is a bigger hit than many think. He also most likely can't be buffed by psychic powers so no might of heroes.

 

So what are we left with? A model 20 points shy of 400 with dramatically reduced buffing and good instead of great melee, who is surprisingly fragile in many ways, 3 up invuln notwithstanding. The problem stems from, imo, this: He is pointed for his old op aura and hasn't seen the points drop that would be needed with the auras nerfing. He was made to be a force multiplier first and melee threat second. His points reflected that. Auras in general are now nerfed hard, but sadly Guilliman hasn't gotten the points drop to reflect his auras nerf. His beatstick potential has also taken a hit due to not getting re rolls himself. There is literally NO WAY he is worth 380 points like this. He might not even be worth 250 in this state. He is way too expensive for what he brings.

 

So what does he need? 1 of 2 things: a massive points drop or a complete rules rewrite. Maybe his aura could change to targeting one or two units only of your choice to get full re rolls, who knows. The fact is though it needs a change. He is simply not worth his massive points cost and it feels wrong to have a primarch cost as little as what his in game abilities would actually reflect. So I feel a complete rules rewrite to make him worth his points cost would be needed. He at least needs to re roll his own attacks.

 

Of course, this could all be wrong and they let him keep his aura as is and he buffs everything. If that happens he will very much be worth 380 points. I don't think that will happen based on the article from GW and their rational though. Any rules rewrite would likely be quite far away though, so hardcore Guilliman players should think about possible adjustments. There may still be ways to make him work. Anyway, just my 2 cents on the current state of Guilliman with the core keyword change. This isn't meant to rag on Guilliman or be overly pessimistic. It is simply an honest assessment of the models abilities and state in game.

Edited September 17, 2020 by emperorpants

[Ishagu]

If the aura is nerfed and he remains a lord of War, the cost should drop to 230 points.

 

Calgar should drop to 180, others lowered too. Characters are:

 

1: Less Resilient

2: Less impactful to the armies they are in

Edited September 17, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You think Guilliman has it bad - Mortarion and Magnus are nuclear radioactive hawt garbage now.

 

As far as taking cheap HQs you get what you pay for... just seems like people are overreacting a bit.

[emperorpants]

You think Guilliman has it bad - Mortarion and Magnus are nuclear radioactive hawt garbage now.

As far as taking cheap HQs you get what you pay for... just seems like people are overreacting a bit.

I agree, those two are really getting shafted. Im sure Mortarion will get some help in their codex. We will probably have to wait till our supplement gets re done. Oh well. It's the way it goes sometimes. I know some people's playstyles and lists won't be affected much, and that's great, but there are also plenty of people who will see massive negative impacts on their armies. Some people can only afford a 2000 point list, and if that list gets nerfed hard, I can understand their frustrations at such sweeping changes.

 

Honestly, this may change a lot and it may change very little. It really depends on what units get core keyword. However it shakes out, I'll still play Ultras. :)

 

I also feel it's important to give new players an idea of how good units may be. Right now it's looking like Guilliman won't be a competitive option, at least to me. So I want to give my reasons why i feel that way so new players can plan accordingly and make informed decisions about army building.

 

Sorry if my post was what you were referring to about overreacting. I honestly didn't mean it that way. It's perfectly possible Guilliman will be fine, they may have buffed him, etc. It did happen with the Lord of War slot issue after all. I just don't think it's likely. I hope it will happen though! :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Look at all the good thing SM are getting like additional wounds for firstborn. Jebus ...

[emperorpants]

Anyway, what units do you guys foresee having the core keyword? I'm hoping aggressors still have it, but I'm not sure. I heard a rumor that units that abused re rolls with tons of shots would get nerfed. Do you guys think the ATVs will have It? The article said bikes would have it and they have the bike keyword... Edited September 18, 2020 by Captain Idaho
Removal of off topic content

[emperorpants]

Your thoughts on what else may have the core keyword? Any thoughts on possible list modifications? :) Edited September 18, 2020 by Captain Idaho
Removal of off topic content

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is too soon to say what my list will be going forward but I am stoked to build and paint some new units.

[Riddlesworth]

Is too soon to say what my list will be going forward but I am stoked to build and paint some new units.

 

This. I'm still playing fun 1k games as my local crew gets to grips with 9th. There's still Indomitus units and my primaris backlog to paint. theorycrafting when we don't have full grasp of the rules takes away too much time from bringing Captain Dakka and the Gravis Fun Bus out to play