BA Successor Chapter Tactics

[Paladin777]

I'm kind of with you on red thirst being less necessary when your heavy hitters are dreadnaughts. Master Artisans makes those dreads even nastier because a single reroll is more impactful on a Dreadnought then say, a ten man squad of DC with chainswords! I think you're definitely onto something with Artisans combo'd with Whirlwind. It might be worth it to give nearly every sergeant a thunder hammer (or at least a power fist) too!

[Morticon]

I've been playing successor BA almost exclusively recently. 

This is what I've found. 

 

The killyest combo has obviously been WWoR and BH (Born Heroes) - the combo allowing for devastating amounts of attacks - especially when rerolls are in the mix.  The way it mitigates THammer attacks is amazing too. 

 

However, in recent days, I've also found that more than the other chapters we have a stronger reliance on first-born marines.  DC, Vanvets, Sangguard, (even attack bikes) are all used extensively.  Because of this and because of the damage output of so many deadly lists (like Custodes or Monster Nids for example), the "mini-transhuman" Stalwart has been exceptional in preventing almost 17% more damage. 

I've been really impressed with this, despite losing out a little on Born Heroes.   

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I've been playing successor BA almost exclusively recently.

 

This is what I've found.

 

The killyest combo has obviously been WWoR and BH (Born Heroes) - the combo allowing for devastating amounts of attacks - especially when rerolls are in the mix. The way it mitigates THammer attacks is amazing too.

 

However, in recent days, I've also found that more than the other chapters we have a stronger reliance on first-born marines. DC, Vanvets, Sangguard, (even attack bikes) are all used extensively. Because of this and because of the damage output of so many deadly lists (like Custodes or Monster Nids for example), the "mini-transhuman" Stalwart has been exceptional in preventing almost 17% more damage.

 

I've been really impressed with this, despite losing out a little on Born Heroes.

That's the one where you can only ever be wounded on a 3 or better right?

 

I definitely think custom chapters have a lot of merit right now, i haven't had the opportunity to play with them yet however.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

I've been playing successor BA almost exclusively recently.

 

This is what I've found.

 

The killyest combo has obviously been WWoR and BH (Born Heroes) - the combo allowing for devastating amounts of attacks - especially when rerolls are in the mix. The way it mitigates THammer attacks is amazing too.

 

However, in recent days, I've also found that more than the other chapters we have a stronger reliance on first-born marines. DC, Vanvets, Sangguard, (even attack bikes) are all used extensively. Because of this and because of the damage output of so many deadly lists (like Custodes or Monster Nids for example), the "mini-transhuman" Stalwart has been exceptional in preventing almost 17% more damage.

 

I've been really impressed with this, despite losing out a little on Born Heroes.

That's the one where you can only ever be wounded on a 3 or better right?

 

I definitely think custom chapters have a lot of merit right now, i haven't had the opportunity to play with them yet however.

 

Successor tactics can be very good, being able to pick and choose like that. I do think that the Deathwing/Ravenwing Dark Angels rules have actually staved off custom tactics is a testament that they were fairly well designed. When they first came out and people wanted them nerfed, what they didn't really get was that people wouldn't take the nerf and play that way, they would just switch to picking the custom successor tactics. If the Deathwing was only the equivalent of Stalwart, why not just take Stalwart across the whole army and be done with it?

 

That hasn't quite been the case for things like SW and maybe BA, where the tactics may be good, but the lack of forced incentive doesn't speak to the longevity of adherence. Being able to take Born Heroes and Whirlwind of Rage for instance just gets that extra power and you basically have nothing to lose in return.

Edited February 14, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Paladin777]

Well, taking Born Hero's and WWoR does make you lose something: the red thirst. Just how big of a deal that is really depends on your build. SG and BGV's love Red Thirst, as do LC VV's, but it's probably not as potent on TH VV's, Assault termies, and dreadnaughts as the WWoR+born hero's/master Artisans would be.

[Xenith]

 

The killyest combo has obviously been WWoR and BH (Born Heroes) - the combo allowing for devastating amounts of attacks - especially when rerolls are in the mix.  The way it mitigates THammer attacks is amazing too. 

 

Just an aside you already probably know, but for the benefit of others is that Born Heroes doesnt stack with WWoR to proc extra hits on a 5+, it's still on unmodfied 6's. 

 

Statistically the 2 are identical, but I prefer wwor with rerolls to fish for additional 6's. BH also doesn't stack with sanguard +1 to hit, which I use a lot.

 

I've been running only successors since march lst year - WWoR is my favourite, to keep some killy, but Master Artisans (essentially a free CP per unit, per turn) and Tactical Withdrawal are favourites. TW allows so many movement shenanigans, yo ucan really dominate the board. Between that and strike and fade, my entire army could disengage then get back into melee. Stalwart is also decent if facing a lot of high S weapons.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So I really like aggressors, when I'm looking at squads of 5 dudes with powerfists, red thirst doesn't mean much for me when exploding 6s and a free re-roll is more important, same with my redemptors etc.

[Paladin777]

So I really like aggressors, when I'm looking at squads of 5 dudes with powerfists, red thirst doesn't mean much for me when exploding 6s and a free re-roll is more important, same with my redemptors etc.

That's the exact point I was trying to make, though my examples were thunder hammers instead of fists... they're similar enough though.

[Xenith]

Yea, +1 to wound is moot when you have a unch of high S weapons anyway. For me, +1 to wound wasn't as necessary when they made power swords +1S, and as we have access to claws. 

[Morticon]

While it may seem counter-intuitive, Its super, super important to note that BH and WWOR nets either the same, or better results across the board vs all targets as Red Thirst. 

 

(Generally speaking regular attacks are about the same - never worse- while specialist weapon attacks like hammers or claws net much better results). 

 

 

More importantly is that in subsequent turns, WWOR remains, while BH (and +1 to wound) only last first round of combat (though the one is when you charge vs charge and charged).

 

While you cant stack the +1 to hit (with SG for example) in the first turn, you can do it in Subsequent phases.  

 

You lose the +1 to charge, but if you're needing it, you should probably be relying on the chaplain instead. 

 

Losing RT is sadly no biggie and the successor combo is unarguably better if you're not using/relying on BA relics. 

[Xenith]

Seeing as each chapter tactic seems to be part of the main chapter ones, I think you can build stronger combos than the BA one, even from the preview. If successors get the doctrine bonus also, it'll be hard to justify BA rules once again.

 

The +1 to advance and charge combined with the exploding 6's in combat trait seems really strong. I'll probably use that combo with my Flesh Eaters.

 

I'll just leave that there. It's kind of sad that BA traits/relics are outclassed - essentially at the drop of the codex. I think unless you want Dante/Meph//Wrath of Baal, you're better with a successor. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The thing about Blood Angel characters is they aren't the auto includes they once were.

 

You get so much more mileage out of generic HQs. Mephiston just isn't the man he once was. Nor are any of the boys in red to be fair.

 

Astorath is outshined by a biker chaplain, Corbulo is worse than a regular priest, etc.

 

That's not necessarily bad. Before they gave us so much customization it was bad to be a successor chapter.

[Paladin777]

I still maintain that the Red thirst is hardly bad though.

 

If it's easier to hit then he RT is better. If it's easier to wound than BH/WWoR is better (though BH and WWoR is hellish when put together, but that depends on how much you value the +1 to charge/advance). If they're the same than it's a complete wash. So WWoR/born heroes is better with fists/hammers/normally dreadnaughts, and RT is better in most other cases.

 

One last thing though, WWoR is categorically better than born heroes for two reasons. The first is that you still get benefit from WWoH when you have a native 2+ to hit (and aren't suffering from any negative modifiers) when born heroes doesn't, and WWoR is activates when the unit charged, is charged, or does a heroic intervention whereas. Born heroes only activates when the unit charges.

 

Otherwise they're exactly the same.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Paladin777

[Xenith]

I still maintain that the Red thirst is hardly bad though.

 

If it's easier to hit then he RT is better. If it's easier to wound than BH/WWoR is better (though BH and WWoR is hellish when put together, but that depends on how much you value the +1 to charge/advance). If they're the same than it's a complete wash. So WWoR/born heroes is better with fists/hammers/normally dreadnaughts, and RT is better in most other cases.

 

One last thing though, WWoR is categorically better than born heroes for two reasons. The first is that you still get benefit from WWoH when you have a native 2+ to hit (and aren't suffering from any negative modifiers) when born heroes doesn't, and WWoR is activates when the unit charged, is charged, or does a heroic intervention whereas. Born heroes only activates when the unit charges.

 

Otherwise they're exactly the same.

 

Couple of observations, +1 to hit and +1 to wound are statistically identical, and 2 hits on a 6 is identical to +1 to hit. It matters when you already hit on a 2+ (characters) or wound on a 2+ (hammers, fists), in which case the additional benefit is wasted.

 

WWoR is also better due to another factor, which is luck. With BH, you can only get a number of hits equal to your attacks. Regardless of luck, your units operate at 100%.

 

With WW, if a model randomly spike 2-3 sixes to hit, which is not uncommon, they're suddenly running at 130% damage output. My Sanguard use this to great effect with their bucket of attacks. Likewise claws.

[Paladin777]

+1 to hit and +1 to wound are definitely not statistically identical.

 

Regardless as to whether it's a bit or wound roll, when you get a +1 to the roll when the success is on 2's there's no benefit, 3's you get a 25% increase, 4's is 33%, 5's is 50%, and 6's is 100%.

 

This means that if you need 3's to hit and 4's to wound, getting the bonus to wound is better because you'd get a 33% increase in overall damage output as opposed to the 25% you'd get from the bonus to hit.

 

So unless you can guarantee you are going to roll the exact same number of 2+, hits and wounds, 3+ hits and wounds, 4+ hits and wound, etc, then either +1 to hit or wound will end up being statistically superior. The challenge comes in figuring out which that will be.

 

I hav already agreed that if you're running more fists/hammers/dreads than low Str/high volume attacks than BH or WW is better, but for anything S7 or less I'd say that RT is better unless you're fighting gobs of T3 targets (which is certainly local meta dependent, and seriously; how many S6-7 melee attacks do we really have? Axes I guess, but thats about it!). S5 attacks (SG and BGV) love RT because they're never wounding on twos which makes them at least on par with WW/BH against T3/4 (when either +1 to hit or wound results in a 25% output increase), and better against T5 (RT results in a 33% overall damage increase whereas the other two result in a 25% increase) or more.

 

So, which one is better truly depends on your list. Got dreads and hammers/fists coming out your ears? Go WW. Are you throwing buckets of chainsword attacks or MC power/encarmine swords (or if you face a lot of Death Guard for that matter!)? Go with RT!

 

Lightning claws throws a wrench into all this math and I'll agree BH/WW is probably better most of the time. I haven't run those numbers.

 

Edit: with the LC rerolls you get an 18.5% benefit if you need a 4+ to wound normally, and a 35% benefit if you need a 5+ normally. So assuming you normally hit on 3+'s (and therefore get a 25% benefit from WW), if the target is T4 or less, then WW is better. If the target is T5 or more, then RT is better.

 

The luck argument is really pretty irrelevant because luck is luck... Let's say you rolled 12 dice and got 3 sixes and 3 twos amongst the other dice. You got 3 bonus hits from WW, but you missed those 2's. Someone else who took BH didn't get the bonus hits from the sixes, but they did hit with the twos. Statistically they're identical unless you already need 2+'s to hit, in which we agree that WW is definitely better.

 

 

However, if you want absolute maximum melee damage output at the expense of any other trait bonuses then WW and BH together is the way to go. If you've got a native 2+ you get only a 20% damage output increase (but that's really only captains and you can give them hammers!), but at a native 3+ you get a 50% increase and at 4+ you're at a whopping 66% increase in overall damage!

Edited February 16, 2022 by Paladin777

[Morticon]

 but for anything S7 or less I'd say that RT is better unless you're fighting gobs of T3 targets (which is certainly local meta dependent, and seriously; how many S6-7 melee attacks do we really have? Axes I guess, but thats about it!). S5 attacks (SG and BGV) love RT because they're never wounding on twos which makes them at least on par with WW/BH against T3/4 (when either +1 to hit or wound results in a 25% output increase), and better against T5 (RT results in a 33% overall damage increase whereas the other two result in a 25% increase) or more.

 

 

Hate to be "that guy"  but, again, I feel it important need to clarify some things.

 

BH/WW is better (or equal), not worse than RT in every single attacking situation.   The only time it's not is when you're charged.   

 

As a quick example, I'm going to use the baseline of Incursors charging (with Savage Echoes). 

 

21 Attacks

 

VS MEQ 

 

RT:   6.2 wounds

WW/BH: 7 wounds

 

VS GEQ

 

RT: 11.6 wounds

WW/BH: 14 wounds

 

VS GravisEq and Monster (T5+,3+)

RT: 4.6 Wounds

WW/BH: 4.6 Wounds

 

 

 

Throw lightning claws or hammers in here and they massively outstrip RT in every situation.  

 

In addition, in protracted battles, RT loses out as WW keeps netting benefits.  (Although being charged is different). 

 

We have precious little that already hits on 2s and don't need to waste combo stacks with Quake Bolts or Heirs of Azk. 

 

 

 

So, at the risk of sounding contrarian, the statement: ", which one is better truly depends on your list" is just not true in terms of which units/loadout you take and raw damage output - but rather what relics you take and how your playstyle is (ie: will you get charged, or do the charging) 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Morticon

[Paladin777]

Sorry to tell you this, but your math is incorrect. Here's the actual results on those 21 attacks (3+ WS, S4. Armor save is irrelevant in this comparison)

 

Edit: I finally figured out how you did your math and while you're math isn't wrong, I firmly believe that putting two damaging chapter tactic abilities up against one isn't a fair comparison. You may feel that +1 to advance and charge is irrelevant, but in the game of positioning that 9th has become I find that I disagree.

 

21 attacks vs GEQ

Neither ability: 2/3 chance of hitting for 14 hits, 2/3 chance of wounding for 9.33 wounds (gives us our baseline that we can establish our percentage increases from)

 

RT: 2/3 chance of hitting for 14 hits, 5/6 chance of wounding for 11.66 (for my predicted 25% increase)

 

WW/BH: 5/6 chance of hitting (I believe we agree that WW/BH have the same mathematical benefit as long as you're not already hitting on 2's, which incursers are not) for 17.5 hits, 2/3 chance of wounding for 11.66 wounds (also having my predicted 25% increase because when you both hit and wound on 3's, a +1 bonus to either is going to have the same results)

 

Vs MEQ

Neither ability: 2/3 chance of hitting for 14 hits, 1/2 chance of wounding for 7 wounds (gives us our baseline again)

 

RT: 2/3 chance of hitting for 14 hits, 2/3 chance of wounding for 9.33 wounds (for my predicted 33% increase)

 

WW/BH: 5/6 chance of hitting for 17.5 hits, 1/2 chance of wounding for 8.75 total (which is my predicted 25% increase for going from hitting on 3's to hitting on 2's!)

 

Vs monster/gravis

Neither ability: 2/3 chance of hitting for 14 hits, 1/3 chance of wounding for 4.66 wounds (gives us our baseline again)

 

RT: 2/3 chance of hitting for 14 hits, 1/2 chance of wounding for 7 wounds (for my predicted 50% increase from the baseline)

 

WW/BH: 5/6 chance of hitting for 17.5 hits, 1/3 chance of wounding for 5.833 total wounds (which is again my predicted 25% increase from the baseline for going from hitting on 3's to hitting on 2's!)

 

 

I don't know how you got your answers, but I'm sorry to tell you that however you were doing it was incorrect.

 

Besides, I double checked the conditions for WW and you need to have charged, gotten charged, or heroically intervened for it to activate, just like RT. So unless WW has been errata and I don't know about it, your comment about WW being useful in protracted battles when RT isn't is also false.

 

If you want me to elaborate on my calculations, feel free to ask.

 

 

On a final note: you can stop bringing up hammers because I already agree that WW is better on them! You have a net 33% gain from the WW/BH (with the -1 to hit on models that normally hit on 3's)and RT is only better against T9!

 

However, on a captain with a hammer/fist, it's the same when hitting T5-7 targets, and RT is actually better against T8... just saying.

 

 

Edit: For completion's sake, here's the breakdown for lightning claws as fielded on terminators and vanguard vets (3+ to hit and S4). As before I'm ignoring saving throws because it doesn't effect the comparison. For the sake of nicer numbers I'm going to start with 36 attacks.

 

Vs GEQ

 

Neither benefit for our baseline:

2/3 chance to hit for 24 hits, 8/9 chance to wound for 21.33 wounds.

 

RT: 2/3 chance to hit for 24 hits, 35/36 chance to wound for 23.33 wounds

 

WW/BH: 5/6 chance to hit for 30 hits, 8/9 chance to wound for 26.66 wounds

 

Vs MEQ

 

Neither benefit for our baseline:

2/3 chance to hit for 24 hits, 3/4 chance to wound for 18 wounds.

 

RT: 2/3 chance to hit for 24 hits, 8/9 chance to wound for 21.33 wounds for the predicted 18.5% increase

 

WW/BH: 5/6 chance to hit for 30 hits, 3/4 chance to wound for 22.5 wounds for the consistent 25% increase.

 

Note: I already said that with lightning claws WW/BH was better than RT when fighting T3/4. However, let's see what happens when bump it to T5-7...

 

Vs gravis/monsters

 

Neither benefit for our baseline:

2/3 chance to hit for 24 hits, 5/9 chance to wound for 13.33 wounds.

 

RT: 2/3 chance to hit for 24 hits, 3/4 chance to wound for 18 wounds (for the predicted 35% increase from the baseline)

 

WW/BH: 5/6 chance to hit for 30 hits, 5/9 chance to wound for 16.66 wounds for the still consistent 25% increase from the baseline.

 

Since the only models that can take lightning claws are S4, against T5 RT is better with a 35% output increase as opposed to WW/BH increase of 25%. Note: models with a 2+ WS (such as captains. I don't know if anyone else is using them, but I think blenders are fun!) get even less benefit from WW (only 20%) and no benefit from BH at all when using lightning claws.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Paladin777

[Dont-Be-Haten]

What is the percentage of a re-roll by comparison. Obviously the 8th edition rule was so much better, but MA still seems like a solid choice. Especially with first born tactical squads with Lascannon or Melta.

[Paladin777]

On what unit? Since it's a single reroll per squad it depends on a couple of factors. Specifically the number of attacks, and the to-hit roll.

 

However, if you are rolling enough attacks to just about guarantee you'll miss at least one it's pretty much the same as having one extra attack.

 

So I guess for a squad of 3 Aggressors (which you've said you like. I like them too) it would be a 7.7% increase on the charge, 5.9 if it's in the assault doctrine, and 10% after the first round when shock assault isn't active.

 

I'd say that MA would be most felt on squads that have only 1-2 heavy hitting weapons at both melee and range (like a squad with a sergeant with both a thunder hammer and a plasma/inferno pistol).

Edited February 16, 2022 by Paladin777

[Rhavien]

Sorry to tell you this, but your math is incorrect. Here's the actual results on those 21 attacks (3+ WS, S4. Armor save is irrelevant in this comparison)

Did you factor in the extra hits on 6s for whirlwind?

Edited February 16, 2022 by Rhavien

[Paladin777]

 

Sorry to tell you this, but your math is incorrect. Here's the actual results on those 21 attacks (3+ WS, S4. Armor save is irrelevant in this comparison)

Did you factor in the extra hits on 6s for whirlwind?

He didn't say his numbers were for both WW and BH (though those numbers were wrong too), and neither did I. On incursers WW and BH have an identical numerical benefit so I lumped them together.

 

Edit: his numbers were for both WW and BH together, and they were correct in that way. However, it would have been nice for him to have explained what his numbers were supposed to fully represent.

 

Also, using both WW and BH is stacking two chapter tactic benefits against one of RT's benefits which I thought wasn't a fair comparison. RT gives you the bonus to advance and charge too, which you wouldn't get if you took both BH and WW.

 

However, if you wanted to use both the WW and BH then there would be a total increase of 50% from the baseline calculations for incursers (and all units with a 3+ to hit). Units with power fists would be at a 66% increase from their baseline (assuming a native 3+ for a net 4+ to hit), and units with a 2+ would have a paltry 20% increase because born heroes doesn't have any effect on them.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Paladin777

[BluejayJunior]

So I really like aggressors, when I'm looking at squads of 5 dudes with powerfists, red thirst doesn't mean much for me when exploding 6s and a free re-roll is more important, same with my redemptors etc.

What about Born Heroes and Bolter Fusillade? (Assuming you're running bolter Aggressors) Give them a bonus to both shooting and melee and don't need to be babysat by a captain. 

[Paladin777]

Bolter fusillade provides a 16.66% increase to bolter shots as a flat rate. Not a bad pick if you're spamming bolter units. Do bolter inceptors count? I like those too. Imagine dropping 6 of them down and popping descent of angels for 35x S5 AP-1 HITS on the deep strike! Edited February 16, 2022 by Paladin777

[BluejayJunior]

I'm beginning a narrative Crusade campaign soon and was looking through potential options (though Red Thirst is still in the mix as I just love the default tactic). This is a combination that jumped out to me. Gives your chapter a bonus to both shooting and melee. I'm planning on using narrative units from my 4th company. So plenty of tactical marines and intercessors, plus bolter aggressors and inceptors. So I would be able to get the most out of both.

[Rhavien]

I guess it's RT against both whirlwind and heroes. I'm happy to see RT compete against BH that good, because I refuse to play my BA as anything other than BA. But the original thought was that +1 charge and advance is such a minor bonus that you can't rely on it to even begin with. So just swap it out, too. I for myself would not say this is 100% true. You can't have a chaplain around everywhere handing out +2 charge range. Also the chaplain is a big investment pointswise and makes you more predictable as your opponent can already see the threat range he is providing.

Could someone run the math succeeding a more than 9" charge using +1 charge range with reroll against just +2 charge range?