BA Successor Chapter Tactics

[Paladin777]

Here you go

 

In order to calculate the success rate with a +1 to the charge range just go to the next bracket and for +2 go to the one below it.

 

12" charge~2.77% success rate

12" charge with reroll~5.478% success rate

 

11" charge~8.33% success rate

11" charge with reroll~15.97% success rate

 

10" charge~16.66% success chance

10" charge with reroll~30.55% success rate

 

9" charge~ 27.77% success chance

9" charge with reroll~47.8% success chance

 

8" charge~ 41.66% success chance

8" charge with reroll~ 66.97% success rate

 

7" charge with reroll~58.33% success rate

7" charge with reroll~82.63% success rate.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Paladin777

[Dont-Be-Haten]

On what unit? Since it's a single reroll per squad it depends on a couple of factors. Specifically the number of attacks, and the to-hit roll.

 

However, if you are rolling enough attacks to just about guarantee you'll miss at least one it's pretty much the same as having one extra attack.

 

So I guess for a squad of 3 Aggressors (which you've said you like. I like them too) it would be a 7.7% increase on the charge, 5.9 if it's in the assault doctrine, and 10% after the first round when shock assault isn't active.

 

I'd say that MA would be most felt on squads that have only 1-2 heavy hitting weapons at both melee and range (like a squad with a sergeant with both a thunder hammer and a plasma/inferno pistol).

I was thinking PF or TH sergeants etc.

[Paladin777]

 

On what unit? Since it's a single reroll per squad it depends on a couple of factors. Specifically the number of attacks, and the to-hit roll.

 

However, if you are rolling enough attacks to just about guarantee you'll miss at least one it's pretty much the same as having one extra attack.

 

So I guess for a squad of 3 Aggressors (which you've said you like. I like them too) it would be a 7.7% increase on the charge, 5.9 if it's in the assault doctrine, and 10% after the first round when shock assault isn't active.

 

I'd say that MA would be most felt on squads that have only 1-2 heavy hitting weapons at both melee and range (like a squad with a sergeant with both a thunder hammer and a plasma/inferno pistol).

I was thinking PF or TH sergeants etc.

Then consider it the same as them simply having an extra attack, it should be close enough as long as they have at least 3 attacks.

 

Edit: if the sergeant has 3 attacks then it's a 29.16% increase. 4 attacks is a 23.4% increase, 5 attacks is 19.375, and 6 attacks is 16.4% increase.

 

Looking back at your other posts, a single free reroll on a squad of 5 aggressors doesn't get you very far. You'd definitely be better off with the combination of WW and bolter fusillade... though that also depends on the rest of your army.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Paladin777

[Morticon]

Apologies for the confusion - yeah, I didn't think anyone would factor only one of the SCTs in (unless they were looking to pair with Stalwart).
They come in sets and theyre chosen together so I don't see any value of just comparing one. In that regard BH/WWoW (together) *ALWAYS* net better (or equal) results on the charge.

 

For sheer standalone damage output there's no debate.  That's not to say it's an easy choice. 

 

 

I guess it's RT against both whirlwind and heroes. I'm ha. You can't have a chaplain around everywhere handing out +2 charge range. Also the chaplain is a big investment pointswise and makes you more predictable as your opponent can already see the threat range he is providing.
Could someone run the math succeeding a more than 9" charge using +1 charge range with reroll against just +2 charge range?

 

I think this is a valuable point echoed by Rhavien above and brought up by Paladin. 

For me though, I've not found the reliance on +1 to charge to be necessary and I haven't factored it into battle strategy.

 

That being said, you're absolutely not wrong about positioning being important.

 

( With that in mind, the last request is an odd one, because you'd never ever need to compare those two things (+1 to charge with RR vs "just" +2 to charge).  If you have the reroll for the +1 you have it for the +2.) 

 

But, if our battle plan relies on us making 8" charges out of DS, I don't believe theyre good battle plans. 

 

 

In my experience (other than aesthetics personal sensibilities), there are a few reasons to go standard BA:

 

1: If you're using Dante, Sanguinor (or any other named char - though I don't see why you would competitively)

2: If you're using 2 relics (or your build is starved for CP.)

3: If you play around buffing units with +1 to hit. (which requires investment of more points and has the problem Rhavien mentioned above).

 

 

That last one is a valuable point, I want to touch on, in more detail.  Our ability to use quake bolts, and the (expensive) Chapter Ancient, along with a WL near can make for some very strong combos with a bunch of +2 to hit. (Thus removing the benefit of BH, and pushing RT into the lead for damage). (Though, once again, this has the "Chaplain" problem mentioned by Rhavien/Paladin) 

 

In fact, all of the top tournament winning BA in the last year have been VERY similar builds - Dante at the helm, Ancient and 3 or so SG units. It plays in a very particular way, making cagey use of terrain until it can hop out and smack.   

Personally, I don't use SG that much (as my meta has too much -1dam and high AP - seeing them get smashed far too quickly).   The benefit that the SCT have brought to my games is the opportunity to play BA competitively with more of my models and more varied units . I don't feel hemmed into using 3 squads of SG and an Ancient and Dante in an already limited competitive set of marine choices.

 

For that reason alone, I think it's important to tout the benefits and strengths of the SCTs.   

[Paladin777]

I'm all for discussing the virtues of SCT. I thought it sounded like you were saying that RT was largely useless by comparison, which I vehemently disagree with so I felt the need to defend it.

 

If you don't use SG (which is understandable), what do you tend to use instead?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'm all for discussing the virtues of SCT. I thought it sounded like you were saying that RT was largely useless by comparison, which I vehemently disagree with so I felt the need to defend it.

 

If you don't use SG (which is understandable), what do you tend to use instead?

He mostly uses VV & incursors, or he used to. Not sure anymore.

[XeonDragon]

 

So I really like aggressors, when I'm looking at squads of 5 dudes with powerfists, red thirst doesn't mean much for me when exploding 6s and a free re-roll is more important, same with my redemptors etc.

What about Born Heroes and Bolter Fusillade? (Assuming you're running bolter Aggressors) Give them a bonus to both shooting and melee and don't need to be babysat by a captain. 

 

 

 

Bolter fusillade provides a 16.66% increase to bolter shots as a flat rate. Not a bad pick if you're spamming bolter units. Do bolter inceptors count? I like those too. Imagine dropping 6 of them down and popping descent of angels for 35x S5 AP-1 HITS on the deep strike!

 

It works well. I've run RG successors  with BF/WWOR and a unit of 5 or 6 aggressors (or terminators for that matter) with re-rolling 1s to hit on all those bolter shots plus exploding 6s in combat is pretty sweet. Even better with a Lt to give re-roll 1s to wound. 

 

I wouldn't say it is massively overpowering however. As I explained to a newbie at my FLGS league last week, BF/WWOR is a very "consistent" combination. The re-rolls really help smooth out bolter shooting performance, and WWOR (in my experience) does something similar to melee.

 

However, to make that combination work in anything semi-competitive you really, really, REALLY need to "lean in" hard on units with lots of bolter shots and decent melee. So Aggressors, assault centurions, terminators, relic terminators, incursors all benefit substantially from that combo as they all have bolter shots, and good melee. Assault centurions in particular benefit as they normally can't get re-rolls.

 

BGV, assault intercessors and regular intercessors with a melee weapon on the sergeant can some benefit. In the case of BGV and assault intercessors, not much of a boost to shooting (only 1 pistol shot per model), but decent boost to the melee. Normal intercessors the same. Bolter inceptors can some benefit as well.  

 

Dreadnoughts that like combat and have storm bolters will also benefit, as the re-rolls apply to all bolter weapons, not just infantry. 

 

So, having played like 30+ games with BF/WWOR, I can assure it works well. Not super powerful, but very consistent and reliable. But, at the risk of repetition, you really, REALLY need to build your list around it. You also need to understand that almost every unit will be wanting to shoot one thing and charge another, as your melee will be your most viable anti-tank and monster in that build.

 

Now, I switched to BH/WWOR recently and have done about 10-12 games with that, mostly as RG successor but some as BA successors as well. I can confirm that it is much more powerful than BF/WWOR but, at leas to me, it feels more 'swingy' and less consistent. If I can get units into combat, it kicks ass, 100%. But that is the challenge - getting into combat reliably. 

 

I think BF/WWOR is more 'forgiving' as if you mess up your moves, you can at least still shoot something with thousands of bolter shots, whereas with BH/WWOR if you mess up your movement then.... yeah.... not good.

 

So, as I explained to the newbie player last week, BF/WWOR is a great 'beginner' combo - flexible, consistent, and adaptable, albeit not super powerful. BH/WWOR... in the right hands, played well, it is super powerful. For BA successors, it's awesome. For RG successors it is a bit swingier, but with movement shenanigans can make for a truly amazing alpha strike turn 1 

Edited February 17, 2022 by XeonDragon

[Morticon]

 

If you don't use SG (which is understandable), what do you tend to use instead?

 

Almost all my lists are largely based around multiple squads of vanguard and incursors as mentioned above . Troops are almost always phobos (for Guerilla Tac) and forward deploy - and in recent months ive found a need for infiltrators again. 

 

I think most recently I used something like:

 

Biker Chap

Jump Priest

DC Hammer Cap on Bike

 

2x5 Incursors

1x5 Infiltrators

 

2x5 VanVet -1TH/SS,4LC/SS.

1x10 Vanvet- 2TH/SS,8LC/SS

 

2x 2 Attack Bikes - mm

1x2 ATVs - mm

 

 

- I do occassionally swap out one of the Vanvets for a single SG squad, but as said, the prevalence of Damage reduction and high AP in my area sees me being a bit frustrated with them.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

So I really like aggressors, when I'm looking at squads of 5 dudes with powerfists, red thirst doesn't mean much for me when exploding 6s and a free re-roll is more important, same with my redemptors etc.

What about Born Heroes and Bolter Fusillade? (Assuming you're running bolter Aggressors) Give them a bonus to both shooting and melee and don't need to be babysat by a captain. 

 

 

 

Bolter fusillade provides a 16.66% increase to bolter shots as a flat rate. Not a bad pick if you're spamming bolter units. Do bolter inceptors count? I like those too. Imagine dropping 6 of them down and popping descent of angels for 35x S5 AP-1 HITS on the deep strike!

 

It works well. I've run RG successors  with BF/WWOR and a unit of 5 or 6 aggressors (or terminators for that matter) with re-rolling 1s to hit on all those bolter shots plus exploding 6s in combat is pretty sweet. Even better with a Lt to give re-roll 1s to wound. 

 

I wouldn't say it is massively overpowering however. As I explained to a newbie at my FLGS league last week, BF/WWOR is a very "consistent" combination. The re-rolls really help smooth out bolter shooting performance, and WWOR (in my experience) does something similar to melee.

 

However, to make that combination work in anything semi-competitive you really, really, REALLY need to "lean in" hard on units with lots of bolter shots and decent melee. So Aggressors, assault centurions, terminators, relic terminators, incursors all benefit substantially from that combo as they all have bolter shots, and good melee. Assault centurions in particular benefit as they normally can't get re-rolls.

 

BGV, assault intercessors and regular intercessors with a melee weapon on the sergeant can some benefit. In the case of BGV and assault intercessors, not much of a boost to shooting (only 1 pistol shot per model), but decent boost to the melee. Normal intercessors the same. Bolter inceptors can some benefit as well.  

 

Dreadnoughts that like combat and have storm bolters will also benefit, as the re-rolls apply to all bolter weapons, not just infantry. 

 

So, having played like 30+ games with BF/WWOR, I can assure it works well. Not super powerful, but very consistent and reliable. But, at the risk of repetition, you really, REALLY need to build your list around it. You also need to understand that almost every unit will be wanting to shoot one thing and charge another, as your melee will be your most viable anti-tank and monster in that build.

 

Now, I switched to BH/WWOR recently and have done about 10-12 games with that, mostly as RG successor but some as BA successors as well. I can confirm that it is much more powerful than BF/WWOR but, at leas to me, it feels more 'swingy' and less consistent. If I can get units into combat, it kicks ass, 100%. But that is the challenge - getting into combat reliably. 

 

I think BF/WWOR is more 'forgiving' as if you mess up your moves, you can at least still shoot something with thousands of bolter shots, whereas with BH/WWOR if you mess up your movement then.... yeah.... not good.

 

So, as I explained to the newbie player last week, BF/WWOR is a great 'beginner' combo - flexible, consistent, and adaptable, albeit not super powerful. BH/WWOR... in the right hands, played well, it is super powerful. For BA successors, it's awesome. For RG successors it is a bit swingier, but with movement shenanigans can make for a truly amazing alpha strike turn 1 

 

Good to know it can be very effective. I'm just doing a Crusade so nothing too competitive, but it sounded like a fun combo. 

[Xenith]

+1 to hit and +1 to wound are definitely not statistically identical.

 

 

My mistake there, been a while since we ran through this and I was getting confused with the old power weapons, which I recall were?

 

Either way, 2+ to hit/3+ towound MEQ vs 3+/3+ boils down to 15/36 or 16/36, so negligible. 

 

In this edition though, it's much easier to find things to boost your strength than tings that boost your to hit roll, which evens the odds a lot. If you have a weapon that will boost your S to a breakpoint vs your target, then I'd say +1 to hit is better. 

 

Sanguard making 6A with a sword on MEQ:

 

WW = 5 hits, 2/3 to wound = 3.33 wounds. 1/6 saves = 2.77 wounds -> 5.55 damage.

RT = 4 hits, 5/6 to wound = 3.33 wounds. 1/6 saves = 2.77 wounds -> 5.55 damage

 

Either way, it doesn't change that, if rolling well, in all cases with RT and BH your models only perform at 100%, while WW allows them to perform above 100%. And that's the reason we take stuff, right?

 

In my experience (other than aesthetics personal sensibilities), there are a few reasons to go standard BA:

 

1: If you're using Dante, Sanguinor (or any other named char - though I don't see why you would competitively)

 

 

Different discussion, but there's been some tourney winner(s) recently using BA with Dante and Wrath of Baal. Dante is a decent beatstick for his points, cheap and saves a lot of CP compared to beefing up another character. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

+1 to hit and +1 to wound are definitely not statistically identical.

 

My mistake there, been a while since we ran through this and I was getting confused with the old power weapons, which I recall were?

 

Either way, 2+ to hit/3+ towound MEQ vs 3+/3+ boils down to 15/36 or 16/36, so negligible.

 

In this edition though, it's much easier to find things to boost your strength than tings that boost your to hit roll, which evens the odds a lot. If you have a weapon that will boost your S to a breakpoint vs your target, then I'd say +1 to hit is better.

 

Sanguard making 6A with a sword on MEQ:

 

WW = 5 hits, 2/3 to wound = 3.33 wounds. 1/6 saves = 2.77 wounds -> 5.55 damage.

RT = 4 hits, 5/6 to wound = 3.33 wounds. 1/6 saves = 2.77 wounds -> 5.55 damage

 

Either way, it doesn't change that, if rolling well, in all cases with RT and BH your models only perform at 100%, while WW allows them to perform above 100%. And that's the reason we take stuff, right?

In my experience (other than aesthetics personal sensibilities), there are a few reasons to go standard BA:

 

1: If you're using Dante, Sanguinor (or any other named char - though I don't see why you would competitively)

 

Different discussion, but there's been some tourney winner(s) recently using BA with Dante and Wrath of Baal. Dante is a decent beatstick for his points, cheap and saves a lot of CP compared to beefing up another character.

Are you referring to Chris Clines GT list?

 

I saw that breakdown and the rationale from his side. It was interesting to say the least. I think it's more on Chris being a good table general who loves BA and knows how to work them. I really need to get some volkite dreads.

 

Also Mort, are you still in China? How different is competition from South Africa or other regions you've played in?

 

Is it MEQ heavy and thus you need the BH + WWoR combo, or is that just your go to for all around play?

Edited February 18, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Paladin777]

 

 

+1 to hit and +1 to wound are definitely not statistically identical.

 

My mistake there, been a while since we ran through this and I was getting confused with the old power weapons, which I recall were?

 

Either way, 2+ to hit/3+ towound MEQ vs 3+/3+ boils down to 15/36 or 16/36, so negligible.

 

In this edition though, it's much easier to find things to boost your strength than tings that boost your to hit roll, which evens the odds a lot. If you have a weapon that will boost your S to a breakpoint vs your target, then I'd say +1 to hit is better.

 

Sanguard making 6A with a sword on MEQ:

 

WW = 5 hits, 2/3 to wound = 3.33 wounds. 1/6 saves = 2.77 wounds -> 5.55 damage.

RT = 4 hits, 5/6 to wound = 3.33 wounds. 1/6 saves = 2.77 wounds -> 5.55 damage

 

Either way, it doesn't change that, if rolling well, in all cases with RT and BH your models only perform at 100%, while WW allows them to perform above 100%. And that's the reason we take stuff, right?

In my experience (other than aesthetics personal sensibilities), there are a few reasons to go standard BA:

 

1: If you're using Dante, Sanguinor (or any other named char - though I don't see why you would competitively)

 

Different discussion, but there's been some tourney winner(s) recently using BA with Dante and Wrath of Baal. Dante is a decent beatstick for his points, cheap and saves a lot of CP compared to beefing up another character.

Sure, against GEQ and MEQ WWoR (without BH) and RT are identical, but once you start hitting T5+ (DG, crisis suits, Custodes, vehicles, etc) the red thirst pulls ahead pretty substantially.

 

Remember: having a native 2+ to hit is a 20% boost to output with WWoR.

 

If you need a 3+ to succeed, getting a +1 to the roll is a 25% boost

4+= 33% boost

5+= 50% boost

6+= 100% boost.

 

WW shares those numbers.

 

WW, however, can be paired with other fantastic SCT like Stalwart, Born Heroes and Bolter Fusillade, and that's where I think it shines most. However, if you like the +1 advance and charge, RT is as damaging, if not more, to most targets than WWoR (which is categorically as good or better than BH in every way) unless you're spamming PF/TH/dreads.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Paladin777

[Morticon]

 

Also Mort, are you still in China? How different is competition from South Africa or other regions you've played in?

 

 

 

The Chinese meta is still young, but very strong. There are broadly speaking two groups- foreign and local. The local players and the internationals dont mix aaaall that much on account of language difficulties and also differences in tournament playstyle (local players dont enjoy wysiwyg, while the internationals prefer it).  That being said, there's a very strong and solid community in both groups.  Shanghai has some of the best foreign players at the moment, while Shenzhen has some of the best Chinese players I've seen (really, really good players).  Beijing is also comparable, though the most active tournament style gamers are definitely in the Shanghai circuit. 

There's a lot more meta chasing here than in South Africa on account of the costs involved.  Far more money here - so people can switch to flavour of the month quite readily, where as in SA is a long and slow build, so you get more faction loyalty on account of it.  

 

 

In my experience (other than aesthetics personal sensibilities), there are a few reasons to go standard BA:

 

1: If you're using Dante, Sanguinor (or any other named char - though I don't see why you would competitively)

 

 

Different discussion, but there's been some tourney winner(s) recently using BA with Dante and Wrath of Baal. Dante is a decent beatstick for his points, cheap and saves a lot of CP compared to beefing up another character. 

 

Yeh!! sorry, i re-read my comment and realised its a little ambiguous.  What I meant about non competitive was in relation to characters that are NOT Dante or Sanguinor.  (Lemmy, Mephy, Astorath etc). Dante appears in the vast majority of BA lists that win, it seems. 

[Majkhel]

One thing I think is missed in regards to RT and WWoR/BH comparison - how do those fare when we encounter something similar to transhuman (like Twisted Helix GSC)? I found that especially SG and BGVets (so swords) immediately loose all CC benefits RT gives.

[Paladin777]

Yeah, those would certainly negatively impact the RT pretty badly.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

As I dive deeper into some of the top table units I can see how successor tactics give options that wouldn't be as viable in a direct red thirst build.

 

Successor tactics really allow more flexibility in list building and experimentation on the table top.

[Paladin777]

I certainly agree with that.

[Rhavien]

Worst offender is DA deathwing. So annoying to play against them with RT.

[Jolemai]

Thread added to BA Resources

[Morticon]

I was having a chat in another group today and it reminded me that I totally forgot to add one interesting thing to the mix of the successor chat above!! 

I forgot to mention that I usually play a Chaplain with +1 to wound litany.   That means I benefit from all the goodies on key assaulting units. 

Really makes a difference.   

[Xenith]

 

Are you referring to Chris Clines GT list?

 

I saw that breakdown and the rationale from his side. It was interesting to say the least. I think it's more on Chris being a good table general who loves BA and knows how to work them. I really need to get some volkite dreads.

 

Jack Harpster, as I recall - Dante, Unkillable chaplain, priest, sang ancient, 3x sanguard, death co, other stuff. He basically uses characters as angels sacrifice pawns to keep the sanguard alive.

 

As has been mentioned, there's so many ways of ignoring the +1 to wound, like THP, similar rules, etc, and then so many ways of getting round them, that I feel we can forgoe RT totally. Lightning claws being a prime example, extra A and reroll to wound works well with WWOR, and I found the fall back and charge to be a major mobility booster. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

This is why I believe RT needs a rework.

[Xenith]

Yea, something like army-wide Fights First wouldn't be broken at this point, and actually one hell of a reason to take actual BLOOD ANGELS. There's precedent in that the old Red Thirst/Furious Charge used to grant +1 Strength and +1 Initiative, so we'd generally fight before other stuff anyway. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Xenith

[Paladin777]

Honestly, the 'no matter what modifiers' aspect of transhuman and similar (like Deathwing) is stupid. Amending them to 'modifiers allowed' would be one hell of a balancer, and I really don't think it would be too broken. They'd still make hammers with RT wound on 3+ instead of 2+, and that's still significant.

 

We both get to benefit from our traits, which means no one gets left out in the cold!

Edited March 9, 2022 by Paladin777

[Morticon]

Yea, something like army-wide Fights First wouldn't be broken at this point, and actually one hell of a reason to take actual BLOOD ANGELS. There's precedent in that the old Red Thirst/Furious Charge used to grant +1 Strength and +1 Initiative, so we'd generally fight before other stuff anyway. 

 

I've been thinking about the exact same thing, actually.