Ultra Concerns: Supplement?

[Ishagu]

On the topic of Ultras and our units, what's happening with our supplement? That's my question.

We have units that clearly need new datasheets (eg: Tyrannic War Vets) and various rule and strats that require updates. Are we getting a massive Errara that re-writes it? That would be horrible but preferable to not getting anything for a while.

 

 

=][= I have split off topic posts into a new topic regarding concerns of the (non) existence of an Ultramarines Supplement. Please be respectful of each other. Thank you.

- Prot. =][=

Edited September 30, 2020 by Prot

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’ll be a faq but don’t expect much .

[Azekai]

I will accept nothing less than getting all his re rolls back including re roll to wound. If he doesn't then that is crazy when looking at the SK

Ah, except they already sold a fair few Bobby G's, and the Silent King needs to be impactful to sell.

[Subtleknife]

 

I will accept nothing less than getting all his re rolls back including re roll to wound. If he doesn't then that is crazy when looking at the SK

Has you let geedub know ?

I've sacrificed 20 astropaths to get the message to gdubs...nothing heard back....

[WrathOfTheLion]

There'll be an FAQ for UM, but I wouldn't expect too much. Not saying it isn't a valid concern, but having been there playing SW/DA, you'll have to make do with an FAQ a while. The last of the current announced supplements is to be released like 4 months out from now, so even factions getting their whole codex invalidated to be merged in isn't that much of a priority. So I wouldn't expect to see even any hints of a republished supplement until months into 2021.

[Ishagu]

Yeah, I imagine there will be no point in playing Ultramarines until the next supplement.

 

I expect them to nerf the various auras, adjust some points and move on.

 

I'll just pick and chose whatever rules are strongest in the meantime.

[WrathOfTheLion]

They might FAQ the datasheets, not really certain. I would think they will.

 

On the DA side, we'll have strategems that are oddly scoped to only Deathwing terminators (not bladeguard) and a bunch of other crazy things, and will have to make due for many months with dozens of messed up datasheets, so just saying not get expectations high. No way to see one this year, as the release schedule of the existing 4 (DA/SW/BA/DW) is already going into next year.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, I imagine there will be no point in playing Ultramarines until the next supplement.

 

I expect them to nerf the various auras, adjust some points and move on.

 

I'll just pick and chose whatever rules are strongest in the meantime.

True Ultramarines players take the rough with the smooth.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

I love the lore and universe more than anyone, and I always try to make thematic lists that also maintain a strong level of power - my desire to keep my lists thematic is something I put ahead of winning all games, tournaments, etc.

 

If my efforts aren't being rewarded with fun and dynamic rules, but are in fact punished, then I see no reason to submit myself to that experience.

 

Hopefully GW will surprise us all with a well thought out and inspiring FAQ/Errata so I won't have to use my Ultras as another more interesting, fun, competitive and dynamic chapter.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Ishagu

[WrathOfTheLion]

I wouldn't expect much inspiring on it. Might be cynical, but they really have not treated us well on our side. Could be wrong, but I wouldn't expect them to do a ton with it in the near term.

 

Waited 6 months for a campaign supplement to have to buy into combat doctrines... just to get the nerf from SM/IH like a week later. Still have no Deathwing or Ravenwing keyword for Bladeguard or bikes until next weekend when codex drops, even though they marketed the boxset that way. Codex DA completely invalid for over a year now since previous SM codex, will be another 3-4+ months to new book. Still running old 2017 Chapter Master rules for Azrael instead of 2019 codex ones.

So I wouldn't expect substantial changes until a new publication, as past experience isn't promising. If it does happen, then it's exciting. But wouldn't be too bothered by it or get expectations really high. I'll be glad if on our side they have the courtesy to at least invalidate Codex: DA/Codex: SW so I don't have to carry 4 books or something just to play them.

Edited September 29, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Yeah, I imagine there will be no point in playing Ultramarines until the next supplement.

I expect them to nerf the various auras, adjust some points and move on.

I'll just pick and chose whatever rules are strongest in the meantime.

A true Ultramarines players the rough with the smooth.

THIS

[Ishagu]

No one can lecture me on how to play my army lol. I've been in the hobby since the 90s, and have played and spent far more than most.

 

If one set of rules for the units I own isn't as enjoyable as another, and the things I like most - thematic units that are linked to stories and lore (our unique characters) - are made less playable, then I certainly won't limit my enjoyment of the hobby.

It's hard enough to get games in during the Covid period - I want them to be the most fun they can be.

 

Hopefully all this will be irrelevant if GW actually do a good job updating the rules in our supplement.

If they don't then I'll use the more interesting and fun rules they've given to other chapters until we get a new one.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

No one is lecturing you on how to play. Certainly not in the way you lecture others on this forum.

[crazyterran]

With Primaris having come out since after chapter tactics were a thing, people have had a chance to paint their dudes in successor chapter colours. So someone running blue and gold Loyalist marines and then saying they are dark angels would get a raised eyebrow.

 

That being said, that’s personal opinion, and generally we shouldn’t be lecturing each other here.

 

I honestly don’t see Guilliman or any one else in the codex getting any major rule changes belong the changes to Core and maybe a few wording changes to make things work better in the 9th codex, but beyond that?

 

I could see the super doctrines getting changed to only effect Core units, while the baseline doctrines will work on any model. Though I imagine they would have said something by now to appease the hordes of anti-marines we have nowadays

[Prot]

Guys at the end of the day some people will play the most powerful chapter, each and every release/chapter approved/codex update. We know this.

 

The rest of us? Well I assume that's why most of us are here. Some will come and go with the flavour of the month, and that's their prerogative.  

 

It doesn't matter if you've spent more, played longer, etc, we all 'vote' with our dollar. We all have our own reasons for staying or leaving our chosen chapter. 

 

IF we don't see a supplement, this doesn't mean we don't get unique datasheets, or won't see a supplement in the future.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to see a new supplement for the Ultramarines, so it can be brought into line with 9th with Crusade rules and other nuances.

 

That and I want Sicarius to have an upgrade.

[Lykke]

I think they will update the characters in an faq, or gman and the rest of the special space marine boys will really not fit what GW is going for with there new "aura" mechanic in 9ed. Especially if the sups. Are fare off. It will be interesting to see if that's the ONLY thing GW choose to change about all the special characters which they must know will kill a lot of people interested to play warhammer, as the whole "herohammer theme" is what drives people's motivation to immersed themself in the hobby and the 40k univers. Edited September 30, 2020 by Lykke

[crazyterran]

Other than changing the wording on auras and maybe one or two small things attached I don’t see much else being done. There won’t be new data sheets or the like.

[Johanhgg]

+theoretical: Ultramarines Will not perform as well. Practical: enjoy the Ultramarines anyway+

 

At least thats how i Will deal with the future :)

[Blindhamster]

your rules hardly suck, I've been a blood angels player since the end of 2nd edition, trust me, I've seen far darker times over that period than the ultramarines will see if they don't have Guilliman/Calgar modified.

Dante compared to Calgar was a joke all through 8th edition lol.

If you love ultramarines (you've always said you do), play ultramarines, don't play blue and gold dark angels with ultima symbols lol.

[Prot]

Let’s not play the “who has it worse” game.  I can go back to days gone by where I would get hammered in tournaments with Blood angel deep striking Landraiders and scouts turning into fist toting Death Company. 
 

The point here is we don’t know the rules. The concerns many are expressing here are just the fear of getting ‘short changed’ rules with the lack of a supplement. Personally I don’t share this concern. 
 

The only way I would have a problem with it is if every Marine chapter has full use of the main codex -plus- all the extras of the supplement.  To me that would just go back to the days where everyone seemed to play a supplement marine army. I don’t think GW is that obtuse though. 
 

As far as characters, since 9th came out I’ve played dozens of games with my UM and White Scars and I just don’t find the objectives really lend themselves to slow, expensive characters. I finally gave up on Calgar, and his Gravis armour and that was before the core aura modifications.  
 

I believe we are just looking at growing pains and learning how to adapt. GW is obviously attempting to claw back on rulebook creep. But I’m sure we can agree that everything is going to experience codex creep and rules bloat leading to the next edition reset. 
 

[Captain Idaho]

After reading Knights of Maccragge, all I want is updated Firstborn Chapter Champion and Sicarius rules. That'll do me. :) Edited September 30, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Blindhamster]

Let’s not play the “who has it worse” game.  I can go back to days gone by where I would get hammered in tournaments with Blood angel deep striking Landraiders and scouts turning into fist toting Death Company. 

 

The point here is we don’t know the rules. The concerns many are expressing here are just the fear of getting ‘short changed’ rules with the lack of a supplement. Personally I don’t share this concern. 

 

The only way I would have a problem with it is if every Marine chapter has full use of the main codex -plus- all the extras of the supplement.  To me that would just go back to the days where everyone seemed to play a supplement marine army. I don’t think GW is that obtuse though. 

 

As far as characters, since 9th came out I’ve played dozens of games with my UM and White Scars and I just don’t find the objectives really lend themselves to slow, expensive characters. I finally gave up on Calgar, and his Gravis armour and that was before the core aura modifications.  

 

I believe we are just looking at growing pains and learning how to adapt. GW is obviously attempting to claw back on rulebook creep. But I’m sure we can agree that everything is going to experience codex creep and rules bloat leading to the next edition reset. 

 

but... isn't EVERY marine army a supplement army now, even ultramarines? 5th ed Blood angels were silly good, but we did go through 4th ed with a white dwarf codex that sucked, and through 6th ed using the 5th ed codex and 7th where we didn't get stuff like the marine codex till right near the end, and it was STILL worse :P, where even black templars got a proper codex.

 

Anyway, the point I was making, is even if calgar and guilliman do get a little worse, they are far from bad characters. Or bad choices. They still do great things for the ultramarine army, things other chapters can't do.

 

I'm sure Ultramarines will be just fine after the FAQ drops when the codex comes out.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Blindhamster

[Prot]

Sure, and a lot of these perceived issues can be resolved with proper points adjustments. 
 

The really interesting thing in my mind is the strats. That is to say we all know what chapter tactics we are stuck with ( for good or bad). I saw some people here ( who shall remain nameless) decree the sky was falling for ultras when the Big Guns Never Tire rule was initially announced. 
 

To me a big piece of the puzzle are those army specific strats and relics/warlord traits. I guess that’s why I don’t really see the lack of supplement as an automatic ’sky is falling’ moment. Units themselves will be turned up and down through a series of Chapter Approved adjustments and FAQs. 

[Ishagu]

@Blindmaster

 

Guilliman is a pretty sub-par choice, not outright bad but a single nerf away from being useless. He's about 100 points over-costed as he isn't a HQ.

 

Calgar is better, but expensive and slow.

 

Both harder to protect in 9th.