emperorpants Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 i fail to see how blood angels are "better", they play differently to different strengths, and actually the main codex melee units are better than the blood angels ones now I'd say. The +1 to wound is obviously a big help for blood angels, but they have to actually get into melee first. Tbh rather than certain chapters being better, i'd suggest that they encourage certain play styles. Blood Angels encourage very aggressive play as just about everything in their rules favours close combat, Wolves play a bit more dynamically with both close combat and ranged abilities, dark angels are a very static army (unless you go ravenwing) and will now discourage other armies charging them. Ultramarines should probably be played surprisingly mobile (seeing as you dont count as having moved) and focus on shooty stuff, knowing they can fall back from combat and shoot anyway - meaning they can't be pinned down as easily. But Ultramarines also have a number of close combat bits too and are the only way to get a legitimate primaris bodyguard unit which is nice too. They also have a bunch of characters, many of which aren't HQ so are totally valid to take in the same army, and one of the best marine psykers to boot, unlike the imperial fists, they aren't forced to favour bolt weapons to make the most of their chapter abilities either which is very nice. Salamanders took quite a hit in terms of power based on their updated chapter tactic too I thouight. It just feels like perhaps the way you want to play doesn't fit the style and theme GW are pushing UM toward, tbh, maybe even the way marines are being pushed toward... Also, fun is totally subjective, I have fun with my blood angels and I don't use death company or smash captains. I just love my guys in red and getting an army that isn't obviously setup for melee into a good ruck lol. Ultras do have some fun characters, for sure. I enjoy running chronus in a land raider sometimes. Is it competitive? Nope! But its fun having a land raider hitting on twos that self heals! I do feel Ultras are taking a disproportionate hit compared to other chapters, but they can still do well. They do lack a real identity that can't be replicated by other chapters I feel though. Other chapters can mimic our mobility quite well. Also, we shall see what happens with Guilliman, I'm holding out hope still. Lol. One thing guys, the ATVs? Think our re roll ones strat will work on them? I believe they have the bike keyword and that strat works on bikes...might be the only way to get re rolls on them. Also, anyone think their is play with 6 bladeguard and our relic banner for extra attacks? Can the bladeguard ancient use it? Might be some play there with all those master crafted power sword attacks hitting on twos getting re rolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 Being able to fall back and shoot is huge. I leverage this ability and is obvious Ishagu don’t.. We also have some very powerful strats. Reflecting on conversation here Ishagu and some others immediately became disillusioned when Gman no longer gave reroll all wounds. Leaving combat can be useful in some games, sure. In other games it might never come into play. It's re-active and situational, and that's why it isn't objectively powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxichobbit Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 It just feels like perhaps the way you want to play doesn't fit the style and theme GW are pushing UM toward, tbh, maybe even the way marines are being pushed toward... That pretty much sums up how I feel about Ultras at the moment. Their current play style is IMO very much infantry based mobile shooting. By mobile, I don't mean fast, because obviously Raven Guard (I think?), Scars and Blood Angels do that better. More that their ranged infantry is more mobile than most Chapters without loosing it's effectiveness. Kind of a walking gun line style of play. That's not necessarily bad, it's just not really the way I see Ultras, based upon decades of liking them and reading their lore. I don't feel like mobile infantry is their shtick and I'd prefer something more based upon adapting to different situations and army builds. When I think Blood Angels I think fast melee, when I think Raven Guard I think covert & sneaky, when I think Iron Hands I think tough, tech and vehicles, when I think Ultras I think adaptability. Out of those (and the other Chapters) the one that sticks out to me as having a play style that doesn't fit it's theme is Ultras. emperorpants 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) @ EC This is not true what you said to any real degree of accuracy plus why would anyone want to play their Templars like Ultramarines ? LOLZ Ultramarines have always been best as heavy infantry based. Edited October 2, 2020 by Black Blow Fly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) I think that's the problem, really. In the lore the Ultramarines are masters of tactics and have a plan against any foe before the battle even starts. That isn't shown on the table at all. They are a slow, infantry based chapter. There are no rules to really showcase their Tactical acumen. Raven Guard control the board better, White Scars get around faster, Iron Hands shoot better and are more durable, Salamanders are the same but allow for the creation of comically powerful custom heroes, etc, etc, etc All those chapters can shoot just as well as the Ultramarines, have better psychic powers and more dynamic strats. Iron Hands are better at heavy infantry lists, as are the Salamanders due to their great psychic and Strat support. Edited October 2, 2020 by Ishagu emperorpants 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 It just feels like perhaps the way you want to play doesn't fit the style and theme GW are pushing UM toward, tbh, maybe even the way marines are being pushed toward... That pretty much sums up how I feel about Ultras at the moment. Their current play style is IMO very much infantry based mobile shooting. By mobile, I don't mean fast, because obviously Raven Guard (I think?), Scars and Blood Angels do that better. More that their ranged infantry is more mobile than most Chapters without loosing it's effectiveness. Kind of a walking gun line style of play. That's not necessarily bad, it's just not really the way I see Ultras, based upon decades of liking them and reading their lore. I don't feel like mobile infantry is their shtick and I'd prefer something more based upon adapting to different situations and army builds. When I think Blood Angels I think fast melee, when I think Raven Guard I think covert & sneaky, when I think Iron Hands I think tough, tech and vehicles, when I think Ultras I think adaptability. Out of those (and the other Chapters) the one that sticks out to me as having a play style that doesn't fit it's theme is Ultras. Yeah thats fair. Maybe instead of having the current chapter tactic, they should have a chapter tactic that lets them change doctrines more easily, Think the trouble with adaptability is it's a harder one to create rules for that dont end up being broken. But interacting with doctrines seems an obvious thing for them to do. emperorpants 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) Ishagu - You are just repeating yourself now and it just seems like you aren’t really knowing how to play them proper . Edited October 2, 2020 by Black Blow Fly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 It's not just the tactic. They could make up for it with strats. Things that boost weapons against specific targets, strats that counter enemy reserves, etc Loads of ways to show Tactical flexibility. Ishagu - You are just repeating yourself now and it just seems like you aren’t really knowing how to play them proper . I know exactly how to play them lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxichobbit Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Yeah thats fair. Maybe instead of having the current chapter tactic, they should have a chapter tactic that lets them change doctrines more easily, Think the trouble with adaptability is it's a harder one to create rules for that dont end up being broken. But interacting with doctrines seems an obvious thing for them to do. That pretty much sums up how I feel about Ultras at the moment. Their current play style is IMO very much infantry based mobile shooting. By mobile, I don't mean fast, because obviously Raven Guard (I think?), Scars and Blood Angels do that better. More that their ranged infantry is more mobile than most Chapters without loosing it's effectiveness. Kind of a walking gun line style of play. It just feels like perhaps the way you want to play doesn't fit the style and theme GW are pushing UM toward, tbh, maybe even the way marines are being pushed toward... That's not necessarily bad, it's just not really the way I see Ultras, based upon decades of liking them and reading their lore. I don't feel like mobile infantry is their shtick and I'd prefer something more based upon adapting to different situations and army builds. When I think Blood Angels I think fast melee, when I think Raven Guard I think covert & sneaky, when I think Iron Hands I think tough, tech and vehicles, when I think Ultras I think adaptability. Out of those (and the other Chapters) the one that sticks out to me as having a play style that doesn't fit it's theme is Ultras. Yeah, my thoughts on it would be something interacting with the doctrines. Exactly what though, I don't know. It'd be a really hard thing to balance, because you wouldn't want Ultras to be better at melee than the melee heavy Chapters, more mobile than the speedy Chapters, better shooting than the shooting Chapters etc, even when they were focussing on that particular aspect. Ideally something that interacts with the doctrines and makes Ultras either better at melee than standard Marines, but worst than Blood Angels, Wolves etc, or better at shooting than standard Marines, but worse than Dark Angels, Imperial Fists etc. But the ability to switch between specialising in melee, shooting etc in game (not necessarily the ability to switch between Doctrines though, as that might encourage mono-build armies that sit in one Doctrine for most of the game). Something to encourage really varied lists with a mix of different stuff. emperorpants 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emperorpants Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) Yeah thats fair. Maybe instead of having the current chapter tactic, they should have a chapter tactic that lets them change doctrines more easily, Think the trouble with adaptability is it's a harder one to create rules for that dont end up being broken. But interacting with doctrines seems an obvious thing for them to do. That pretty much sums up how I feel about Ultras at the moment. Their current play style is IMO very much infantry based mobile shooting. By mobile, I don't mean fast, because obviously Raven Guard (I think?), Scars and Blood Angels do that better. More that their ranged infantry is more mobile than most Chapters without loosing it's effectiveness. Kind of a walking gun line style of play. It just feels like perhaps the way you want to play doesn't fit the style and theme GW are pushing UM toward, tbh, maybe even the way marines are being pushed toward... That's not necessarily bad, it's just not really the way I see Ultras, based upon decades of liking them and reading their lore. I don't feel like mobile infantry is their shtick and I'd prefer something more based upon adapting to different situations and army builds. When I think Blood Angels I think fast melee, when I think Raven Guard I think covert & sneaky, when I think Iron Hands I think tough, tech and vehicles, when I think Ultras I think adaptability. Out of those (and the other Chapters) the one that sticks out to me as having a play style that doesn't fit it's theme is Ultras. Yeah, my thoughts on it would be something interacting with the doctrines. Exactly what though, I don't know. It'd be a really hard thing to balance, because you wouldn't want Ultras to be better at melee than the melee heavy Chapters, more mobile than the speedy Chapters, better shooting than the shooting Chapters etc, even when they were focussing on that particular aspect. Ideally something that interacts with the doctrines and makes Ultras either better at melee than standard Marines, but worst than Blood Angels, Wolves etc, or better at shooting than standard Marines, but worse than Dark Angels, Imperial Fists etc. But the ability to switch between specialising in melee, shooting etc in game (not necessarily the ability to switch between Doctrines though, as that might encourage mono-build armies that sit in one Doctrine for most of the game). Something to encourage really varied lists with a mix of different stuff. Yeah, I feel that Ultras should be able to excell in any category, but not be the best at any. If the situation demands melee, boom we can excel at it, but not as much as blood angels or space wolves. The situation demands shooting? Boom, we excel at it but not as much as imperial fists, etc. The situation demands durability? Boom, we excel at it but not as much as iron hands. Ultras should have the flexibility to deal with any situation and not have an obvious deficit in any category, but also not be as good as other chapters at their speciality and thus not the best at anything, besides tactical flexibility. ;) On demand doctrine manipulation would fit that bill quite well, as has been said by others. Edited October 2, 2020 by emperorpants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 It's not just the tactic. They could make up for it with strats. Things that boost weapons against specific targets, strats that counter enemy reserves, etc Loads of ways to show Tactical flexibility. Ishagu - You are just repeating yourself now and it just seems like you aren’t really knowing how to play them proper . I know exactly how to play them lol . Apparently not well hence you’re belly aching. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Ultramarines do everything well that’s our stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Yeah thats fair. Maybe instead of having the current chapter tactic, they should have a chapter tactic that lets them change doctrines more easily, Think the trouble with adaptability is it's a harder one to create rules for that dont end up being broken. But interacting with doctrines seems an obvious thing for them to do. That pretty much sums up how I feel about Ultras at the moment. Their current play style is IMO very much infantry based mobile shooting. By mobile, I don't mean fast, because obviously Raven Guard (I think?), Scars and Blood Angels do that better. More that their ranged infantry is more mobile than most Chapters without loosing it's effectiveness. Kind of a walking gun line style of play. It just feels like perhaps the way you want to play doesn't fit the style and theme GW are pushing UM toward, tbh, maybe even the way marines are being pushed toward... That's not necessarily bad, it's just not really the way I see Ultras, based upon decades of liking them and reading their lore. I don't feel like mobile infantry is their shtick and I'd prefer something more based upon adapting to different situations and army builds. When I think Blood Angels I think fast melee, when I think Raven Guard I think covert & sneaky, when I think Iron Hands I think tough, tech and vehicles, when I think Ultras I think adaptability. Out of those (and the other Chapters) the one that sticks out to me as having a play style that doesn't fit it's theme is Ultras. Yeah, my thoughts on it would be something interacting with the doctrines. Exactly what though, I don't know. It'd be a really hard thing to balance, because you wouldn't want Ultras to be better at melee than the melee heavy Chapters, more mobile than the speedy Chapters, better shooting than the shooting Chapters etc, even when they were focussing on that particular aspect. Ideally something that interacts with the doctrines and makes Ultras either better at melee than standard Marines, but worst than Blood Angels, Wolves etc, or better at shooting than standard Marines, but worse than Dark Angels, Imperial Fists etc. But the ability to switch between specialising in melee, shooting etc in game (not necessarily the ability to switch between Doctrines though, as that might encourage mono-build armies that sit in one Doctrine for most of the game). Something to encourage really varied lists with a mix of different stuff. Yeah, I feel that Ultras should be able to excell in any category, but not be the best at any. If the situation demands melee, boom we can excel at it, but not as much as blood angels or space wolves. The situation demands shooting? Boom, we excel at it but not as much as imperial fists, etc. The situation demands durability? Boom, we excel at it but not as much as iron hands. Ultras should have the flexibility to deal with any situation and not have an obvious deficit in any category, but also not be as good as other chapters at their speciality and thus not the best at anything, besides tactical flexibility. On demand doctrine manipulation would fit that bill quite well, as has been said by others. issue is, the game isn't really granular enough to allow for quite that to work. stuff that messes with command points, enemy command points, reserves, enemy reserves, deployments, enemy deployments - that would be tactical flexibility. Ishagu and emperorpants 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) Ultramarines do everything well that’s our stick.Every other chapter does everything they do just as well lol, and many things better. @Blindhamster Yeah there are definitely ways they can show "Tactical flexibility" that go beyond just the core rules of the chapter tactic. Edited October 2, 2020 by Ishagu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emperorpants Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) Yeah thats fair. Maybe instead of having the current chapter tactic, they should have a chapter tactic that lets them change doctrines more easily, Think the trouble with adaptability is it's a harder one to create rules for that dont end up being broken. But interacting with doctrines seems an obvious thing for them to do. That pretty much sums up how I feel about Ultras at the moment. Their current play style is IMO very much infantry based mobile shooting. By mobile, I don't mean fast, because obviously Raven Guard (I think?), Scars and Blood Angels do that better. More that their ranged infantry is more mobile than most Chapters without loosing it's effectiveness. Kind of a walking gun line style of play. It just feels like perhaps the way you want to play doesn't fit the style and theme GW are pushing UM toward, tbh, maybe even the way marines are being pushed toward... That's not necessarily bad, it's just not really the way I see Ultras, based upon decades of liking them and reading their lore. I don't feel like mobile infantry is their shtick and I'd prefer something more based upon adapting to different situations and army builds. When I think Blood Angels I think fast melee, when I think Raven Guard I think covert & sneaky, when I think Iron Hands I think tough, tech and vehicles, when I think Ultras I think adaptability. Out of those (and the other Chapters) the one that sticks out to me as having a play style that doesn't fit it's theme is Ultras. Yeah, my thoughts on it would be something interacting with the doctrines. Exactly what though, I don't know. It'd be a really hard thing to balance, because you wouldn't want Ultras to be better at melee than the melee heavy Chapters, more mobile than the speedy Chapters, better shooting than the shooting Chapters etc, even when they were focussing on that particular aspect.Ideally something that interacts with the doctrines and makes Ultras either better at melee than standard Marines, but worst than Blood Angels, Wolves etc, or better at shooting than standard Marines, but worse than Dark Angels, Imperial Fists etc. But the ability to switch between specialising in melee, shooting etc in game (not necessarily the ability to switch between Doctrines though, as that might encourage mono-build armies that sit in one Doctrine for most of the game). Something to encourage really varied lists with a mix of different stuff. Yeah, I feel that Ultras should be able to excell in any category, but not be the best at any. If the situation demands melee, boom we can excel at it, but not as much as blood angels or space wolves. The situation demands shooting? Boom, we excel at it but not as much as imperial fists, etc. The situation demands durability? Boom, we excel at it but not as much as iron hands. Ultras should have the flexibility to deal with any situation and not have an obvious deficit in any category, but also not be as good as other chapters at their speciality and thus not the best at anything, besides tactical flexibility. ;)On demand doctrine manipulation would fit that bill quite well, as has been said by others. issue is, the game isn't really granular enough to allow for quite that to work.stuff that messes with command points, enemy command points, reserves, enemy reserves, deployments, enemy deployments - that would be tactical flexibility. Those would be good things to have as strats for Ultras. Would really help to make Ultras feel more tactical. I do think that some kind doctrine manipulation for our CT would help to though. Like perhaps being able to pick the doctrine for a set amount of units in the command phase. Edited October 2, 2020 by emperorpants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTheLion Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 The limited doctrine manipulation that the Dark Angels have available can be quite handy, although it's much less powerful than that. I think being able to manipulate it for too many things might be a bit too much. Not quite how certain how they would scope it though, I think it would have to be more subtle than what you propose to not end up nerfed. Fittingly the name of the Ravenwing warlord trait is 'Tactically Flexible.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emperorpants Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 The limited doctrine manipulation that the Dark Angels have available can be quite handy, although it's much less powerful than that. I think being able to manipulate it for too many things might be a bit too much. Not quite how certain how they would scope it though, I think it would have to be more subtle than what you propose to not end up nerfed. Fittingly the name of the Ravenwing warlord trait is 'Tactically Flexible.' Yup, which is why I think it shouldn't be army wide, but a set amount that can have the doctrine changed. The exact amount of units that can have the doctrine changed would be the question. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTheLion Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Chapter tactics should have the opportunity to affect the army, I think something scoped by number or an aura makes more sense as a warlord trait like the Ravenwing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emperorpants Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Chapter tactics should have the opportunity to affect the army, I think something scoped by number or an aura makes more sense as a warlord trait like the Ravenwing one. I can see that being the case too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 to be honest, the actual chapter tactic is arguably "good", the increased leadership fits ultramarines discipline, the ability to fall back and still shoot is actually tactical flexibility, you fall back and shoot the enemies you cannot beat in melee, or stand and fight the ones you can. It's not an option other marines get and is actually quite unique and flavoursome. Your devastators got charged by assault intercessors or tyranid warriors? no problem, fall back and shoot them. Clearly GWs logic was that it was tactically flexible. The doctrine is probably what is less appropriate, IMO i'd probably have had ultramarines not get a "super doctrine" but instead "simply" have the ability to choose which doctrine they're in each turn based on the needs of the army. But yeah, stratagems focused more on manipulating other parts of the game to give better benefits, and probably more things to switch doctrines would make sense. emperorpants 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxichobbit Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 There's been an update on Chapter Master. It affects Core and Character units, not just Character as was originally leaked. Pretty big difference and it will likely affect Calgar too. emperorpants and BLACK BLΠFLY 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 (edited) Blind hamster - Some players would always choose devastator doctrine. Edited October 3, 2020 by Black Blow Fly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTheLion Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 Definitely, that's why it has to be more subtle buffs than that. Would allow for the worst of the 8E doctrine problems to return, where people would just take that to spam heavy weapons. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emperorpants Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 There's been an update on Chapter Master. It affects Core and Character units, not just Character as was originally leaked. Pretty big difference and it will likely affect Calgar too. I'm glad that chapter masters can get re rolls for themselves if you want. Can make a difference in melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 Ultramarines have great strats like the redeploy and the one that lets a unit fall back/shoot at no penalty/charge - this is a game winner. Wouldn't be surprised to see Calgar get the new rules for CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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