Ultra Concerns: Supplement?

[WrathOfTheLion]

The book is only 1 year old, it really won't be too far out of date and can be easily handled with FAQs. I think their biggest priority is getting those chapters that are still running old 2017 codexes out of those, then getting the rest of the game up and running in 9E.

 

Since UM have more datasheets in them than the Salamanders, Raven Guard, etc., it is possible we could see something for them at the tail end of this supplement cycle, but that wouldn't be until March or so, and that's if they did one right after the DA supplement.

I cannot see them restarting a full supplement release after the DA one for UM, IF, RG, SA and IH, don't see them running SM releases for like 6+ months straight when Xenos and Chaos don't have codexes yet.

Edited September 30, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Prot]

One thing I’ve heard but not confirmed is that the current UM supplement would be valid until replaced. Is this true? Or is the current UM supplement invalid upon release of the space marines codex?

[WrathOfTheLion]

They said the current supplements will be valid with the new codex in their article when they announced the Dark Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves and Blood Angels supplements, along with PA: Faith and Fury for Black Templars.

 

From this however, we can probably reason that Faith and Fury isn't a permanent solution for the Black Templars. So they will either be released in their own supplement at a later time, or be merged into the Imperial Fists supplement, which would require a new book either way to achieve. Either way, we should end up seeing new ones at some point just from that piece of information, the main question is when.

 

Now on my end, I can only hope Codex: DA/Codex: SW are fully invalid so I don't have to carry a 150 page book for like 10 valid datasheets and a page of rules... Well, I'll be photocopying any remnants of those books that are valid if I have to use them for 4 months, I won't actually carry that.

Edited October 1, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think Ultramarines will continue to be quite potent, our style is tactical. We are truly blessed imo.

[Prot]

I just read some of the strange leaks on the rumour page. I wondered how much I would shift my ultras to a mobile assault army with the changes to core and certain units. The new Wisdom of the ancients adds some interesting depth to Dreadnoughts. 
 

Bladeguard going up to 6 and eradicators up to 6 makes for some interesting choices fir both my white scars and ultras. 
 

The leak did mention the CM upgrade is just pointing at a squad once per turn to allow full rerolls. Otherwise the auras is like a captains. This just might be the end ogpf Calgar fir my lists. I only tolerated him in my lists for the aura, but his speed combined with these new reveals is a problem for my lists. 
 

WL strat appears to allow one unit to act as if it has all doctrines running.... not bad if our other one still exists. But the source claimed there were very few new strats.

[emperorpants]

I just read some of the strange leaks on the rumour page. I wondered how much I would shift my ultras to a mobile assault army with the changes to core and certain units. The new Wisdom of the ancients adds some interesting depth to Dreadnoughts. 

 

Bladeguard going up to 6 and eradicators up to 6 makes for some interesting choices fir both my white scars and ultras. 

 

The leak did mention the CM upgrade is just pointing at a squad once per turn to allow full rerolls. Otherwise the auras is like a captains. This just might be the end ogpf Calgar fir my lists. I only tolerated him in my lists for the aura, but his speed combined with these new reveals is a problem for my lists. 

 

WL strat appears to allow one unit to act as if it has all doctrines running.... not bad if our other one still exists. But the source claimed there were very few new strats.

I wonder if the chapter master upgrade will allow that chosen unit to be a non core one. That could be a way for the chapter master aura to have a use. Otherwise, allowing a single unit to re roll 1s and 2s instead of just 1s doesn't seem worth the extra points quite honestly.

[Ishagu]

I'm perfectly fine and on board with GW nerfing auras as long as the character costs are dropped accordingly, or their rules are updated in other ways.

 

If this doesn't happen then our overpriced heroes become worthless. Take those away and the things unique about the Ultras are diminished.

 

As I said, if the FAQ is a proper update to the existing rules then GW are doing a good job. If they leave us in Limbo until a supplement update that may or may not come out in the near future they are not.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Ishagu

[Blindhamster]

I'd prepare yourself for a cursory job. Nothing great, that's the standard FAQ treatment. If points are likely to drop dramatically I'd be shocked if that happens before the next chapter approved

[Ishagu]

Yeah 'm bracing for the worst to be honest lol.

 

And I really do mean what I say. I'm very happy with GW to move away from bubble hammer and to make a big deal out of the command phase, but when they nerf the auras, whatever takes their place has to be as good/compelling in it's own way.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't believe they do. If every army has balance and weaker auras, that's a win.

 

The characters themselves need adjustments. Calgar is so slow and running a footslogging assault unit will always struggle unless their move is at least 8".

 

I don't much care for better auras etc. How about Calgar allows for a discount on Strategums, or provides a couple new ones? Or can give units a Doctrine of your choice that might count in addition etc?

 

Plenty of interesting options. Re-roll auras are boring and slow the game down. ;)

[Blindhamster]

id assume whatever the full chapter master rules are, calgar will get those.

In general, I'd like to see the various named chapter masters brought roughly in line with eachother, right now there is quite a bit of disparity between them.

I wouldn't be surprised if ultramarines get an update in whatever the next campaign series is either tbh.

[Ishagu]

I don't believe they do. If every army has balance and weaker auras, that's a win.

 

The characters themselves need adjustments. Calgar is so slow and running a footslogging assault unit will always struggle unless their move is at least 8".

 

I don't much care for better auras etc. How about Calgar allows for a discount on Strategums, or provides a couple new ones? Or can give units a Doctrine of your choice that might count in addition etc?

 

Plenty of interesting options. Re-roll auras are boring and slow the game down.

 

So you think if the auras are nerfed the characters should still cost what they do? I'd be happy if the rules stay the same but the costs are reduced to something that represents their ability - 150 for Calgar, 240 for Guilliman.

 

If not they won't be worth it and my army will be better in every measure, not to mention more fun, when I run them as a custom chapter making use of better strats and rules. Take the characters away and the Ultras offer very little, and they have the absolute worst psychic discipline of all the Codex chapters on top.

 

There is a real lack flavour at the moment compared to some other chapters, imo, with really indirect rules that may or may not be useful. Our retreat and shoot is close to worthless against Guard and Tau, for example, and the extra LD only helps larger squads that aren't even the most efficient way to play. We have 3 good strats, one of which is pre game and again, might not be used.

 

This isn't about being negative, it's about being honest so we can enjoy the game. If GW want to shake up the army they have my blessing, but if they leave it in Limbo for an extended period, with sub par units and rules then I will voice my displeasure.

This idea that we should be eternally grateful because the Ultras paint scheme is on the boxes of kits, or because we have some character model support, simply doesn't hold up.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Ishagu

[Blindhamster]

 

I don't believe they do. If every army has balance and weaker auras, that's a win.

 

The characters themselves need adjustments. Calgar is so slow and running a footslogging assault unit will always struggle unless their move is at least 8".

 

I don't much care for better auras etc. How about Calgar allows for a discount on Strategums, or provides a couple new ones? Or can give units a Doctrine of your choice that might count in addition etc?

 

Plenty of interesting options. Re-roll auras are boring and slow the game down.

 

So you think if the auras are nerfed the characters should still cost what they do? I'd be happy if the rules stay the same but the costs are reduced to something that represents their ability - 150 for Calgar, 240 for Guilliman.

 

If not they won't be worth it and my army will be better in every measure, not to mention more fun, when I run them as a custom chapter making use of better strats and rules. Take the characters away and the Ultras offer very little, and they have the absolute worst psychic discipline of all the Codex chapters on top.

 

There is a real lack flavour at the moment compared to some other chapters, imo, with really indirect rules that may or may not be useful. Our retreat and shoot is close to worthless against Guard and Tau, for example, and the extra LD only helps larger squads that aren't even the most efficient way to play. We have 3 good strats, one of which is pre game and again, might not be used.

 

This isn't about being negative, it's about being honest so we can enjoy the game. If GW want to shake up the army they have my blessing, but if they leave it in Limbo for an extended period, with sub par units and rules then I will voice my displeasure.

This idea that we should be eternally grateful because the Ultras paint scheme is on the boxes of kits, or because we have some character model support, simply doesn't hold up.

 

You think Calgar should cost 20 points less than Dante? Really?

 

Calgar has excellent weapons, provides extra CP and is crazy tanky with artificer and gravis combined together AND halving all wounds taken.

 

This isn't me saying Calgar won't have gotten worse, but if ALL chapter masters got worse, why would they necessarily go down in points, or if they did are you really saying that rerolling 1s and 2s instead of just rerolling 1s and picking a unit a turn to get 1s and 2s is really worth 50 points? Should Dante really be 120 points at that point??

 

Calgar as a primaris marine in gravis armour has one major issue which is mobility, because the only thing that can transport him is a repulsor, but who knows maybe transport options will open up a bit?

 

p.s. I use Dante as the example, because Dante is an example of a pretty rubbish chapter master these days, even if lore wise he shouldn't be, and more importantly he's the one I've the most experience with.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Blindhamster

[Ishagu]

Not at all. I think characters from ever chapter should be made to be compelling.

[Blindhamster]

lets wait to see:

a) the specifics of the chapter master rules
b) the specifics of named character chapter masters

before we stress too much then :)

[Captain Idaho]

I haven't even mentioned points values. It's almost pointless talking about those at this point, since they change all the time.

 

Calgar should be worth taking. To do that, he needs to be more than just a Chapter Master who is powerful in close combat. I can do that with a Captain on a bike or Jump Pack or Terminator armour and be more useful.

 

So what does he bring that other choices don't? If it's down to pure points values he'll either be too cheap or too expensive compared to other choices, which is terrible.

 

He needs something else.

[Ishagu]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. The Ultras are generally very uninspired in terms of rules.

 

Other chapters can replicate many of their abilities on more efficient units whilst making use of their own more dynamic and competitive rules and strats.

 

This is why I'm saying that I'm happy for GW to nerf the auras, but they need to aggressively lower the costs of these characters, or update their rules with new and dynamic abilities so they remain compelling.

Even Guilliman's close combat ability can be replicated on far cheaper units.

 

To put it bluntly: Other chapters are way more fun to play, even ignoring the difference in power level.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Ishagu

[Blindhamster]

I haven't even mentioned points values. It's almost pointless talking about those at this point, since they change all the time.

 

Calgar should be worth taking. To do that, he needs to be more than just a Chapter Master who is powerful in close combat. I can do that with a Captain on a bike or Jump Pack or Terminator armour and be more useful.

 

So what does he bring that other choices don't? If it's down to pure points values he'll either be too cheap or too expensive compared to other choices, which is terrible.

 

He needs something else.

he grants bonus CP and takes half damage - you cant do those with other chapter masters, even most of the other named ones pale in comparison

[Ishagu]

Nice abilities, sure, but there are ways to reduce damage on custom characters.

His weapons aren't the most amazing either, and he's slow, expensive, has no unique deployment options, lacks good psychic support, etc

 

The CP bonus is good, but not amazing. Marines have a lot more CP now. 17 per game on average.

He is the most expensive Primaris character by some margin, and ultimately is underwhelming.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Ishagu

[Subtleknife]

Yep,it does seem throughout 8th our differences that we got from having special characters has been eroded somewhat through strats etc.

[justicarius6]

Ultras for life, yo.

 

Paint 'em blue, play 'em blue I say.

 

But it's your choice at the end of the day. If you can't make a fun and decent list from the options Ultras have (which let's face it will still be a lot better than a good percentage of other codexes out there) then maybe your just trying to min-max a little too hard.

 

For G Money to be really good he'd need a rules re-work or a chunky points decrease. Calgar is in a similar boat due to his very low mobility. Dante might seem worse stats wise but the fact he can "use" his stats more effectively makes up for it.

[Dracos]

:) I love a lot about the tactical nature of the Ultras but it’s hard for a Chapter that has exactly one Special Character feel bad for Chapters off the hook with multiple named characters. It’s definitely a 40k first world complaint :) Edited October 2, 2020 by Dracos

[Ishagu]

Now that all chapters share the same book, it's the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves that are treated best by a significant margin. Its not even a contest.

 

Biggest model support, most unique rules and characters, etc.

[Captain Idaho]

Apparently they've got a lot of restrictions which will remain to be seen.

 

Regarding Ultramarines, I think the edition really helps us. We have a tactical and strategic styled army theme, with a bunch of elites units getting multiple wounds and thus will do well to use a combined arms approach. Going for melee and shooting options, we can do plenty on a table with obscuring terrain.

[Ishagu]

I think Salamanders got the biggest boost.

 

They have fantastic rules and strats that make them both deal more damage, and become more durable. Great psychic discipline too, with powers that can give entire squads boosted durability.

 

Their weakness was having no extra mobility, but the smaller boards and the way objectives are places has boosted them in the same way Death Guard benefitted.