Ultra Concerns: Supplement?

[Blindhamster]

Now that all chapters share the same book, it's the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves that are treated best by a significant margin. Its not even a contest.

 

Biggest model support, most unique rules and characters, etc.

how much "better" they are will depend on the way the expected restrictions are implemented, although it's worth noting that unique units != better units, like, vanguard are straight up better than sanguinary guard now, and probably better than death company too tbh. Ironclads and venerables are as good or better than furiosos, the new tanks are better than baal predators. Which really just leaves the special characters/characters to compare, and the ultramarine characters are pretty top tier of the marine characters frankly. I can't speak for wolves or dark angels, but IMO the unique units are flavour rather than mechanically better right now. Although we'll see what the supplements do in terms of rules both for restrictions and unit updates.

 

Won't dispute that they have excellent model support though.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Blindhamster

[Captain Idaho]

I think Salamanders got the biggest boost.

They have fantastic rules and strats that make them both deal more damage, and become more durable. Great psychic discipline too, with powers that can give entire squads boosted durability.

Their weakness was having no extra mobility, but the smaller boards and the way objectives are places has boosted them in the same way Death Guard benefitted.

I think this thread is going to be a difficult topic of discussion, if I'm honest. I think Ultramarines are just fine, with potential to be very powerful on the table. You've explained you want the most powerful and competitive, which means anything less will be a disappointment to you?

 

Salamanders might very well be most powerful. In my view, the margin is so small a good player can beat another good player in a competitive sense without a massive amount of luck.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Now that all chapters share the same book, it's the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves that are treated best by a significant margin. Its not even a contest.

 

Biggest model support, most unique rules and characters, etc.

Special Characters:

 

BA: 7

DA: 6

SW: 9

Ultras: 5

 

Yes, they have more named characters (marginally) and yes they have more unique models mainly because they were their own codexes. However, Ultras have had more releases than any other codex compliant chapter since the start of 8th and they've actually had more releases than the 3 codexes listed above: They all got 1 Lt and a special character, Ultras got Tigurius, Calgar+bodyguards and the LT from conquest. Technically Ultras have had more than double the amount of Primaris models than anyone else and are the only ones with a unique Primaris unit that is not a character.

 

Again, yes the three chapters above have more unique rules but that's because they don't/didn't follow the Codex Astartes to the letter. It makes sense they're unique and the Ultras are seen as standard, they follow the book that everyone else has been mandated to follow. In a meta that is slowly becoming more and more about "tagging" vehicles being able to fall back and still shoot for free is incredible, your super doctrine gives you a bonus that IH get for one turn. Ultras are masters of flexibility.

 

Ultras are also the most visibly supported too. Every new primaris unit that is not chapter specific is painted and shown off as Ultras first they're literally the face of GW

 

I won't deny that Calgar and G-man need help, as you've pointed out they're way over pointed for what they do. Calgar is no longer unique with his rules as other chapters can build a tougher or the same character for way cheaper.

 

I love the Ultras and their successors but it's laughable to suggest that they're one of the worst off even of the supplements, DA and SW have been left in the dark for so long. All 3 chapter masters haven't been updated and really don't do much except if you want to make a fluffy list.

 

tl,dr: Ultras have the most primaris models, the most visible GW support but currently lacking big-boy rules/points department

[Ishagu]

You seem to confuse model support with having good rules.

 

I've never said Ultras have been ignored - they have nice models, great lore, novels, etc etc

That doesn't mean they are a top performer on the tabletop. They are probably one of the worst chapters at the moment in terms of rules.

 

I think every chapter should get unique models. I would also never dismiss a person's complaint about army performance because their chapter might be well supported in terms of kits. These are different and valid points of concern. My army plays significantly better if I run it as different chapters, and significantly more fun too (the fun part is actually a bigger gripe).

 

So no, in this particular discussion the unique models they get are not the main point of contention. It's the rules of the chapter and those models.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Ishagu

[Blindhamster]

You seem to confuse model support with having good rules.

 

I've never said Ultras have been ignored - they have nice models, great lore, novels, etc etc

That doesn't mean they are a top performer on the tabletop. They are probably one of the worst chapters at the moment in terms of rules.

 

I think every chapter should get unique models. I would also never dismiss a person's complaint about army performance because their chapter might be well supported in terms of kits. These are different and valid points of concern. My army plays significantly better if I run it as different chapters, and significantly more fun too (the fun part is actually a bigger gripe).

 

So no, in this particular discussion the unique models they get are not the main point of contention. It's the rules of the chapter and those models.

we were countering the point because you literally brought up model support.

 

Rule wise, are ultramarines really that low down the marine pecking order now? It just doesn't feel accurate :/ And even if it does, they're still marines and as a result top tier regardless. The characters are still good, even if some of their stuff can be replicated. Lets face it, most special characters in marine armies aren't all that special anymore so it's not exactly a unique complaint.

 

Still, if you really cant work out how to make your ultramarines fun, perhaps it's time for a change? Or just enjoy them for what they are, I can't imagine the playstyle of preference has changed so dramatically that you can't still enjoy it, you just might not curb stomp in the same way as before.

 

Courage and Honour right?

Edited October 2, 2020 by Blindhamster

[TrawlingCleaner]

Echoing what Blindhamster said, my main point was about model support.

On the subject of rules I agreed that your 2 big characters were lacking in rules/point atm.

 

Ultras are far from a weak chapter, even within the supplements. Outside of the supplements the army is based on the strongest book in the game, no others are even close.

Leadership buffs are largely useless on SM, I understand that but being able to fall back and shoot for free on all models is very strong in 9th. The meta is shifting towards combat units that tag vehicles and units (orks, demons, BGV), being able to counter that for free is great. I will admit that this is largely useless against armies that have no reason to charge. The Super Doctrine is great and makes all of your infantry very flexible and mobile (arguably more mobile than most bar WS)

 

The competitve meta has not had time to wake up just yet and I think as more horde and combat units are played the stronger Ultras will look

 

Have you had a chnace to play much 9th yet? If you have, what armies have you played against?

[Ishagu]

Yeah I've played quite a bit of 9th, although for a few months during strict lockdown it wasn't possible.

 

I've played against AdMech, Death Guard, Multiple Marine chapters, Tau, Knights, IG

 

I've tested out multiple Ultras builds, also running the army as RG, Salamanders and Iron Hands. I've also personally had a few games with both AdMech and Knight against other factions.

 

I've played against Ultras on multiple occasions myself, so I've seen the army from multiple perspectives.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Ishagu

[Charybdis]

As this is purely hypothetical at the moment, what changes would people like to see in the Ultra's Codex?

 

I do think GW is moving away from 'Special Characters' in an effort to reign in the current Marine meta. In terms of game play enjoyed by the community as a whole, I think moving away from a 'Castle' style of gameplay will be a good thing. 

 

But I also believe that a lot of the Ultra's strength and flavour in 8th came from characters like the G-Man, Calgar, Tiggy etc. We'll be fine regardless, Ultra's have some wonderful strat's, but I would like to see something new added to our Codex, purely because it will add more fun to playing Macragge's finest.

 

If you could add anything to the Ultra's repertoire, what would it be? 

[Ishagu]

Looks like Aggressors have lost the double shoot for standing still.

 

The chapter most negatively affected by this is.... Ultramarines.

[emperorpants]

Reddit leaks say aggressors lost double tap...so another blow to marines in general, but particularly for Ultras. Double tapping aggressors was one of our best tricks with our super doctrine...i mean, I'm not trying to be negative here and I agree that ultras will still be good after the codex drops, but...

 

I think Ultras are one of the weaker and least unique chapters so far. I'm not really sure how it can be argued otherwise. Our strats are mostly reactionary, as is our CT. Our CT can be a big deal, but honestly there are plenty of games where it literally never gets used. Yes, in some situations it can be a game changer...but honestly I'll take a CT I can use every game that provides moderate benefits over one that you can go games without using that can sometimes make a good difference.

 

Our super doctrine is quite poor now, where it used to be great. It no longer affects vehicles (excluding the executioner which is terrible now anyway) for starters, and it longer does anything for aggressors. So what does our super doctrine do? Let's intercessors move and double tap. It lets units with heavy weapons shoot without -1 To hit. That's it. It's not nothing, but it's certainly not +1 to wound for melts, a flat damage increase, etc.

 

Sorry, but our super doctrine is weak, our CT is the very definition of situational, and our strats are mostly situational and reactionary. In addition, the one other thing we had over other chapters, our special characters, are most likely going to be pretty sub par, when before they were good.

 

I am not trying to be overly negative, and I'm not trying to start an argument. I do think I am well within my rights to express discontent with our chapter being so heavily neutered and losing any semblance of uniqueness that other chapters enjoy. This isn't solely about power, in fact, it's mostly about our chapter not having really anything much to set it apart from other chapters, no unique thing about how it plays that gives you incentive to play it.

 

I keep hearing how we are so flexible, and in some ways we are, such as our re deployment strat. However, that isn't enough to drive a chapter. We have no unique way to play, we just play as essentially a weaker version of other chapters that can re deploy if needed, and has some very situational abilities, most of which will go unused.

 

Again, I'm fine with our chapter being one the weaker space marine chapters, we are still marines and we won't be bad in the context of the game as a whole, and we were strong for awhile. I just hate that we have no uniqueness to us, nothing to hang our hat on really.

 

All that said, i love Ultramarines and I'll still play them even if we end up being terrible (which we WON'T). Also, things change, we will have our time in the sun again. Still, I feel that it's perfectly fine to not be happy with the current changes and we should be allowed to reflect that. That said, I've said my piece and I won't keep harping on it.

[emperorpants]

Just my feelings on how the changes affect Ultras. I'm sure this will change eventually. Like others have said, it all comes in cycles. It's our turn to take it on the chin a bit in comparison to other chapters. That said, I'm eager to get my hands on the dex and see what synergies we can find for Ultras. Edited October 2, 2020 by Captain Idaho
Reference to removed content

[Toxichobbit]

I'm pretty sad about Aggressors, but I dunno if I agree about our super doctrine being bad. No negative to hit for heavy weapons on turns 2 & 3 is a pretty big deal and can be very powerful. Especially with stuff like Eradicators with Heavy Melta-Rifles. And I've found that being able to keep up a good amount of Rapid Fire while moving with anything bolter or bolt rifle derivitive has been solid because it's when you want to be getting the most out of your Rapid Fire weapons due to the extra AP.

 

I still detest our Chapter Tactic though. I have done since 8th released. It's situational, which is the exact opposite of Ultramarines background. It isn't particularly thematic. And half of it may as well not exist (the Ld buff). We should have a Chapter tactic that can be adapted for different situations, not work well in some situations but be irrelevant in others. I'd love something that interacts and/or manipulates with the various Doctrines, something to let us adjust our tactics as the situation demands.

 

Edit: when I say sad about Aggressors, I'm specifically thinking boltstorm Aggressors. I think flamestorm are probably still fine.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Toxichobbit

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Just my feelings on how the changes affect Ultras. I'm sure this will change eventually. Like others have said, it all comes in cycles. It's our turn to take it on the chin a bit in comparison to other chapters. That said, I'm eager to get my hands on the dex and see what synergies we can find for Ultras.

This is crap. We are easily one of the best chapters. I have to laugh knowing you only can find enjoyment in things you don’t like.

[Ishagu]

 

Just my feelings on how the changes affect Ultras. I'm sure this will change eventually. Like others have said, it all comes in cycles. It's our turn to take it on the chin a bit in comparison to other chapters. That said, I'm eager to get my hands on the dex and see what synergies we can find for Ultras.

This is crap. We are easily one of the best chapters. I have to laugh knowing you only can find enjoyment in things you don’t like.

Salamanders

Iron Hands

Raven Guard

White Scars

 

These are definitely better. I don't have enough experience with Dark Angels. The chapters above all have better strats, psychic powers and chapter tactics.

 

Blood Angels are also better but I personally don't like heavily assault focused armies as much.

 

Let's not forget that other chapters can make a unit act as if it stood still anyways, and things like Grav Devs are far better with Iron Hands.

Ultras also have a situational chapter tactic. It never came into play during my last 3 games.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

I'm pretty sad about Aggressors, but I dunno if I agree about our super doctrine being bad. No negative to hit for heavy weapons on turns 2 & 3 is a pretty big deal and can be very powerful. Especially with stuff like Eradicators with Heavy Melta-Rifles. And I've found that being able to keep up a good amount of Rapid Fire while moving with anything bolter or bolt rifle derivitive has been solid because it's when you want to be getting the most out of your Rapid Fire weapons due to the extra AP.

 

I still detest our Chapter Tactic though. I have done since 8th released. It's situational, which is the exact opposite of Ultramarines background. It isn't particularly thematic. And half of it may as well not exist (the Ld buff). We should have a Chapter tactic that can be adapted for different situations, not work well in some situations but be irrelevant in others. I'd love something that interacts and/or manipulates with the various Doctrines, something to let us adjust our tactics as the situation demands.

 

Edit: when I say sad about Aggressors, I'm specifically thinking boltstorm Aggressors. I think flamestorm are probably still fine.

Agreed about boltstorm and our CT. Our CT can be helpful, under some circumstances. In those Circumstances it can be great, however, our CT usually goes unused and doesn't fit with what Ultramarines are supposed to be. Oh well.

 

Our super doctrine isn't totally poor, but I certainly don't think it's one of the stronger ones anymore. It's probably not the weakest either though, as yeah, deep striking and outflanking with it are strong.

 

Is anyone seeing anything good so far synergy wise for Ultras? Outflanking heavy eradicators looks like it can delete most things, especially if we use our re roll ones strat.

[Ishagu]

It's poor, let's be honest. It affects a handful of units now and can be replicated by other chapters that stack it on top of their other rules for a small CP cost (Iron Hands and Salamanders are more effective with it).

 

There is synergy with the new rules in 9th, but nothing unique to this chapter. Also every chapter is now able to generate CP with a new Warlord trait.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Ishagu

[Toxichobbit]

Gonna be honest, I'm not too concerned with the Chapter Tacitc's power. It may or may not be the worst, that's kind of difficult to call because you need to take into account so many other things each Chapter has access to and I personally don't feel I'm knowledgeable enough to make that call. Also, at least right now Marines are so good I'm not overly worried about Ultras power level. In fact I'd rather we weren't the best - I've had a year of feeling like an Eldar player (ie winning games without trying) and it's made me feel dirty. Caveat that Codex creep is a thing and if it goes the same way as 8th I will feel 100% different in 12 months time

 

What I dislike about it is it just feels wrong. it doesn't feel like it fits thematically and more importantly, it feels like utter when I play games where it never comes into play. Having a Chapter Tactic that is as good as having no Chapter Tactic in some games is juat a bad player experience. It's bad games design 101.

 

It's poor, let's be honest. It affects a handful of units now and can be replicated by other chapters that stack it on top of their other rules for a small CP cost (Iron Hands and Salamanders are more effective with it).

There is synergy with the new rules in 9th, but nothing unique to this chapter. Also every chapter is now able to generate CP with a new Warlord trait.

The new Warlord Trait is Chapter Master only. I have no idea if that makes a differnece to the point you're making, but it's worth mentioning.

[Ishagu]

Forget power levels, the problem with Ultras is that they really lack any rules spice in terms of fun and dynamism.

 

No fancy movement bonus, no specific weapon proficiency, no spicy psychic powers that have a massive impact on list building.

 

If they were as fun to play as many other chapters then I certainly wouldn't be complaining as much.

 

I applaud GW for driving Marines away from bubble hammer, but they have to replace that with something equally good. Our characters are all about that. Now they all need a new set of rules.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Ishagu

[Toxichobbit]

I can get behind that. They certainly feel less interesting and lack direction compared to other Chapters. And while some would argue that fits Ultras perfectly as they're the "bland" Chapter, I reckon we all know better.

 

I would love them to take Ultras in a direction that offers more flexibility in the way they play. Something to encourage a mixed arms list, with melee and ranged, fast and slow, infantry and vehicle. At the moment it feels pretty heavily skewed towards ranged infantry, at least for me.

[emperorpants]

I can get behind that. They certainly feel less interesting and lack direction compared to other Chapters. And while some would argue that fits Ultras perfectly as they're the "bland" Chapter, I reckon we all know better.

 

I would love them to take Ultras in a direction that offers more flexibility in the way they play. Something to encourage a mixed arms list, with melee and ranged, fast and slow, infantry and vehicle. At the moment it feels pretty heavily skewed towards ranged infantry, at least for me.

This is my point as well, you and Ishagu have summed it up quite well.

 

So with that weird change to chapter masters, I wonder how it will affect Calgar and Guilliman.

 

Sad that Relic terminators got done dirty. Really was looking forward to having that 4+ invuln on them. Oh well.

 

I do like the change to hellfire shells and flak burst missile though (I'm assuming those leaks are correct as everything else from that rumor is panning out.) Either one would make a good candidate for our auto hit strat in a pinch.

Edited October 2, 2020 by emperorpants

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

One thing to keep in mind following this discussion is Ishagu and the other one is a running theme since the supplement dropped that Ultramraines are the worst chapter and nothing we have is good enough. Ishagu claims all the other chapters are better but this is just him, he cannot speak collectively for everyone. I have had no problems beating the other chapters and am a bit more cautious versus Blood Angels.

[Ishagu]

Tell me what specifically makes the Ultramarines better than the other chapters I listed?

 

I can list very specific things which make the other chapters both more fun, and more powerful.

[Blindhamster]

i fail to see how blood angels are "better", they play differently to different strengths, and actually the main codex melee units are better than the blood angels ones now I'd say. The +1 to wound is obviously a big help for blood angels, but they have to actually get into melee first.

Tbh rather than certain chapters being better, i'd suggest that they encourage certain play styles. Blood Angels encourage very aggressive play as just about everything in their rules favours close combat, Wolves play a bit more dynamically with both close combat and ranged abilities, dark angels are a very static army (unless you go ravenwing) and will now discourage other armies charging them. Ultramarines should probably be played surprisingly mobile (seeing as you dont count as having moved) and focus on shooty stuff, knowing they can fall back from combat and shoot anyway - meaning they can't be pinned down as easily. But Ultramarines also have a number of close combat bits too and are the only way to get a legitimate primaris bodyguard unit which is nice too. They also have a bunch of characters, many of which aren't HQ so are totally valid to take in the same army, and one of the best marine psykers to boot, unlike the imperial fists, they aren't forced to favour bolt weapons to make the most of their chapter abilities either which is very nice. Salamanders took quite a hit in terms of power based on their updated chapter tactic too I thouight.

It just feels like perhaps the way you want to play doesn't fit the style and theme GW are pushing UM toward, tbh, maybe even the way marines are being pushed toward...

 

 

Also, fun is totally subjective, I have fun with my blood angels and I don't use death company or smash captains. I just love my guys in red and getting an army that isn't obviously setup for melee into a good ruck lol.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Blindhamster

[Ishagu]

Blood Angels have a chapter tactic which is pro-active instead of re-active.

 

They also have better mobility and much better phychic powers.

 

I'm not saying they are the strongest, but they are stronger than Ultras. They are also a lot more dynamic on the tabletop and have a real identity on top.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Being able to fall back and shoot is huge. I leverage this ability and is obvious Ishagu don’t.. We also have some very powerful strats. Reflecting on conversation here Ishagu and some others immediately became disillusioned when Gman no longer gave reroll all wounds.