Ultra Concerns: Supplement?

[emperorpants]

Definitely, that's why it has to be more subtle buffs than that. Would allow for the worst of the 8E doctrine problems to return, where people would just take that to spam heavy weapons.

 

Quite possibly. Perhaps only core units get to benefit from doctrine manipulation?

[WrathOfTheLion]

I was thinking something like the Ravenwing doctrine aura Warlord trait - but it affects 'Core' units instead of 'Ravenwing' units. Wouldn't be objectively better because Ravenwing keyword would include non-Core units like speeders, which is what they would typically want to buff.

 

Would also similarly scope it out of getting more buffs to tanks.

 

If they were to give UM any kind of manipulation to doctrines, they'll follow some rules I think. Big one will be not allowing a unit to perpetually be in a doctrine, especially tanks in dev doctrine.

Edited October 3, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Ishagu]

Forget the Doctrine manipulation, that really only impacts weapon AP.

 

Ultras need better strats and psychic powers, and a reworked chapter tactic of some kind.

 

We need unique strats, traits, etc that impact:

 

-Offense in some way

-Defence in some way

-Mobility in some way (We currently have 1 redeployment Strat that is good, but it's situational and pre-game)

-better psychic support

-some unique rules and abilities on our units that are not found in other chapterd

 

 

For example: Salamanders can make a whole unit (not just a model) gain +1 toughness. This is obviously very strong on something such as 10 Heavy Intercessors who are all now T6.

 

They can give any unit +1 to wound in combat or shooting. Again, this is clearly very powerful and can allow even humble Intercessors to reliably damage vehicles in shooting or assault, as an example.

 

Ultimately this makes them more flexible than what Ultras can do. Salamanders units can engage more targets, or you can put some resources in making something durable so you can hold an objective or part of the board.

 

Salamanders can emulate our doctrine for a CP cost, and this is on top of their far superior chapter tactic that gives every unit a free re-roll and reduced damage. Effectively they are better in shooting, combat and in durability.

 

These are just the most basic examples. More fun, more power, more flavour.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Ishagu

[Blindhamster]

most chapter or legion tactics can partially be emulated by others for CP, i don't see an issue there.

I think at this point it's clear you're just not going to be happy.

[Ishagu]

Someone please tell me about these magical Ultramarinesl rules that I'm not aware of? Lol, I joke.

 

I own all of the supplements, I've played with all of them, and I own literally every model in the codex in multiples.

 

I'm just calling it as it is, and I'm not going to pretend the internal Chapter balance of this faction is good.

If I've missed something I would love to be enlightened!

Edited October 3, 2020 by Ishagu

[Blindhamster]

I think "we" just don't think it's as bad as you make out either, sure ultramarines aren't the best chapter, they don't need to be. If it's salamanders, good for them. Ultramarines still don't suck, particularly working on the base marine chassis (which may have just taken a hit but still doesn't suck), these things go in ebs and flows, ultramarines aren't weak, you're just unhappy to not be top dog. If you're unhappy your preferred playstyle doesn't work as well, either suck it up because you like the faction, or make a new army.

The fall back and shoot is good, it requires finesse to use, but it's good and should protect units from protracted combat AND let them keep shooting where its needed. The leadership bonus isn't huge but is thematically appropriate, it also has a larger impact in 9th than it did in 8th. The doctrine is a bit of an oddball, but when it was usable for OP combos, I remember many players loving it, funny now that it's just useful and no longer crazy OP, it's an issue.

 

I'll admit that I've not paid much attention to stratagem support, but honestly with a few exceptions, as a BA player basically the core marine ones were the most useful anyway too generally. Maybe it's an area Ultramarines might like a little love in a supplement at some point.

 

Your characters are good, are they god-tier? maybe not, Guilliman will probably get some fixes to keep him roughly in line with the other setting heavy hitters tbh. Otherwise, they're all good, feel fluffy to their descriptions and whilst they maybe aren't as good as some of the custom jobs you can do, thats no different from the fact custom successors tend to be able to put together more powerful (but more focused) chapter tactics than any of the main ones too.

 

I've no doubt that any important fixes needed will come via errata or chapter approved relatively quickly, if not in this initial PDF wave, because GW seem to be getting better at it now. Clearly GWs view is that marines as a whole needed to be brought down a peg or two, and I don't think that's bad for the game, even if it means all our armies take a bit of a hit.

 

Ultramarines aren't in a bad place, they're still marines, they still have some of the best rules in the game for now purely by being marines, their own stuff might not be quite on the same level as some specific combos from some specific other chapters, but they don't suck, I don't believe you've been struggling to win based on posts in other threads over the past year, so clearly if it's a handicap playing your favourite chapter, it's a minor one.

 

Ultimately, you come across as very entitled and overly negative in this thread, which is a real shame because you're normally pretty positive. Play the army that you like, or if you care more about hyper competitive rules, play the army you think will let you win easiest.

[Captain Idaho]

For me, I find the Psychic Powers we have as Ultramarines fairly average or situational. I would like a rework. I've never liked "roll a D6 for each model and on a 6..." rules as they're weak again everything bar a 30 strong unit.

 

Stratagem support is solid actually. Sons of Guilliman will be great on things that don't have Core or spread across the table. Avenge the Fallen is a great way of "hexing" a successful enemy unit. Squad Doctrines is always useful especially now considering the forced movement on Doctrines.

 

Etc

 

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of changes and updates needed. But we still have some teeth.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[emperorpants]

to be honest, the actual chapter tactic is arguably "good", the increased leadership fits ultramarines discipline, the ability to fall back and still shoot is actually tactical flexibility, you fall back and shoot the enemies you cannot beat in melee, or stand and fight the ones you can. It's not an option other marines get and is actually quite unique and flavoursome. Your devastators got charged by assault intercessors or tyranid warriors? no problem, fall back and shoot them. Clearly GWs logic was that it was tactically flexible.

 

The doctrine is probably what is less appropriate, IMO i'd probably have had ultramarines not get a "super doctrine" but instead "simply" have the ability to choose which doctrine they're in each turn based on the needs of the army.

 

But yeah, stratagems focused more on manipulating other parts of the game to give better benefits, and probably more things to switch doctrines would make sense.

I would be cool with this. I agree that our super doctrine right now is a bigger issue than the CT, as the CT can be flexible in the right circumstances. If the super doctrine got changed to a limited form doctrine manipulation (limited to ensure it doesn't get abused into people just sitting in devestator doctrine) and we got a few strats or psychic powers to affect things like enemy deployment and cp like you said, then I'd be pretty happy. If that happened Ultras would feel more tactical and adaptive.

[Ishagu]

Good news!

 

The "Psychic Fortress" power has been substantially improved.

It now grants units within 6" of the Psyker a 5++ invul.

 

We actually have a reason to take Psykers again, and perhaps Tiggy will get a new lease of life depending on his cost. If not a regular Psyker at least.

[emperorpants]

Good news!

The "Psychic Fortress" power has been substantially improved.

It now grants units within 6" of the Psyker a 5++ invul.

We actually have a reason to take Psykers again, and perhaps Tiggy will get a new lease of life depending on his cost. If not a regular Psyker at least.

Yeah, that is actually a huge buff, and I think it does buff Tiggy quite a bit, as he can essentially auto cast it. The best use for Tiggy might just be might of heroes, null zone, and psychic fortress. He will be a defensive powerhouse being able give the invuln to EVERYTHING, not just core. Means vehicles will actually have some defense. Then he can put a -1 To be hit on a unit, and then can cast might of heroes to buff a dread' s toughness. In addition you will have null zone in your back pocket, which can be a game changer.

 

I'm quite happy about this, as it does give us a great power that Tiggy can reliably cast better than anybody else.

 

*gives Ultra brothers and sisters a socially distanced high five* :)

Edited October 3, 2020 by emperorpants

[Ishagu]

Yeah, he'd be a highly defensive psyker that would actually help quite a bit.

 

He can grant a unit the -1, and another vehicle could use the smoke Strat. You could have two tanks with a 5++ at -1 to hit, for example.

 

I will say, however, that the new Warlord trait or relic that allows two deny-the-witch tests at a 24" range is also a compelling reason to take an upgraded, generic Librarian.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Ishagu

[Cruor Vault]

Yeah, he'd be a highly defensive psyker that would actually help quite a bit.

 

He can grant a unit the -1, and another vehicle could use the smoke Strat. You could have two tanks with a 5++ at -1 to hit, for example.

 

I will say, however, that the new Warlord trait or relic that allows two deny-the-witch tests at a 24" range is also a compelling reason to take an upgraded, generic Librarian.

 

But....  Why?  Tigurius already does all that and more.  Deny is already 24".  It's the Psychic Hood that is limited to 12" normally and Tigurius already has that and 2 denials a turn.  

[Ishagu]

I thought it was 18?

 

If it's 24 then great. He'll be worthwhile over a generic upgrade.

[GreyCrow]

I saw a huge detailed presentation of the Codex/flip through on French Wargame Studio in Youtube. Text and chat is in French, but basically the Ultramarines got a huge buff!

 

Let me explain.

 

Space Marines Know No Fear rule changes from a reroll on Morale to not taking any modifiers on Combat Attrition tests.

 

The +1 Ld bonus becomes extremely valuable since Morale tests can't be rerolled! Definitely working to build a Chaplain + Ancient + Chapter Tactic +3 boosts to Ld (yes, I run large squads and proud of it! :D ).

 

__

 

Loving the discussion about whether Utlras are above or below par !

 

After playing my Primaris Chapter as Ultra only since the supplement wave hit, can safely say that they are not below par, but they harder to figure out than most Chapters because of less obvious benefits.

 

1) The Chapter benefits highly synergize with mass rather than some combo around specific units. The Chapter bonuses makes you even better at taking casualties! (whaaaaaat??) because you can take larger squads and not care too much about Morale tests and seeing models flee.

With 11 LD base with Chaplains + Ancients buffing a battle line, the large squads' taking casualties make morale checks less fearsome.

In turn, one can take larger squads, and large squads synergize better with the stratagems in the book and supplement.

 

2) The 2nd half of the Chapter is trickier because it's not statistical but it's about controlling the engagement. The Ultras can dictate the pace of the battle quite effectively.

The Tactical Doctrine's greatest benefit is not the double shoot when moving. It's that because of this ability, one can deploy much further Turn 1, or deploy behind obscuring terrain to mitigate incoming damage.

 

Rapid Redeployment further helps. The +3'' to auras allows you to stretch the battleline a little further.

 

The fall back and shoot, paired with the Fall Back and re-engage allow to execute the plan you want without getting stuck so much.

 

____

 

The 2 above combined makes it a very very reliable army, and gives very very solid tools to control the engagement with positioning and movement without sacrificing your firepower.

 

So yeah, on paper, the benefits of the Chapter are quite underwhelming compared to other chapters. However on the board, how you can use them makes for a very tactical-like maneuver playstyle that allows (slowly) to execute a strategy over 5 turns and create the engagements that will favor your units.

 

It's just not broadcasted very effectively, and it requires to be able to 'read' what the enemy intent is, factoring in to your plans, and execute.