Necron V9 potential (Or not)

[angrom]

I have to say that to me the new codex is a very big mix feel between disappointment and excitement to see C'tan rock again.

I think we went from bottom tier to C-tier without a doubt and I can't look away from all the missed opportunities they have done with this codex.

 

Sure the Silent king and C'tan looks like monsters but that's it. both will soon realize that the Mortarion syndrome is a thing and that

killing the almighty star king by turn 2 is very much doable without a sweat.

 

The codex is absolutely filled with restrictions everywhere to the point where every stratagem give the vibe that it was designed to be used on a single unit.

The skorpekh and flayers are a good example. they are both very tempting units will a lot of flavor to them and now have some good survivability buff with stratagems but for some reasons all of our reliable delivery systems only work with Core units (which are very very limited in number).

So the units that would benefit the most of pretty much all of our auras, stratagems, and special abilities are the only one without access to it.

(excepted lychguard).

The units that benefit the most from the different buffs and new abilities are the immortals, warriors, tomb blade and lychguards which at the exception of the lychguards were already the main used units with the exact same game mechanics, which is very strange decision from a marketing point of view.

 

At the very least destroyers unit should gain the Core rule when a Skorpekh destroyer lord is added in your army but nope.

 

Now the reanimation mechanic is just the worst of the worst.

Out of all the different options and combinations available they chose the worst one (combining no RP when unit is wiped with no reliable way to resurrect previously fallen models (without investing in points more than what the unit is worth by itself) with a nerfed RP to 5+).

Beside for warriors you will barely notice the difference between having it or not at all.

The total disappearance of available bonus to reanimation combined with no more invo save aura and immunity to morale will

make the silver tide very inefficient both from an offensive and defensive point of view.

 

So to me the only very good unit that can stand by itself is the C'tan which is a shame as you can expect some serious abuse from players on that side leading to the nerf of our only viable option.

 

I won't start a topic comparing what the Necron got (with maximum restriction abuse of the Core rule) compared to what the SM got (with virtually no limitation whatsoever) but you get the idea.

 

I don't want to be too negative about that but to be honest I had some mental expectations of what could be the new codex making sure to take in  consideration some of the worst realistic eventuality and sadly for me they exceeded my worst estimations when you take the faction as a whole.

I will still try to make it work in V9 but it is a headache to put a list together that seem to work fine without glaring weaknesses.

Also as new codexes will be released, things can only go down from that point and we know it.

 

I hope we can share here some of our best strategies to compensate for our sad reanimation rolls.

[Ahzek451]

We see the direction of core and the new restrictions on auras. Minus a few tweaks, this new version is manageable so long as the codex creep doesnt go too far and GW changes their mind on these new restrictions. Otherwise, I agree and disagree on your points. This new codex certainly has done a good job at dividing opinions. For good and bad.

 

But I do feel like our new RP is clunky as hell. I can see what they were trying to do. Any rule that brings back models and units can be hell to manage. In an attempt to keep balance and not piss off your opponent. But...yeah...I geuss I dont see much point for the reanimator, RP for multiwound models, and still does nothing for 1 model units with the rule or ever giving us a desire to take units in sizes that are not maxed out. So we basically need szeres or one use res orbs(let's be honest, will not see more than 1 or 2) to bring back a model or 2 from non-core units?

 

It somewhat surprises me that a large chunk of new models either seem limited or underpowered compared to the boosts a lot of other existing models got.

 

But I still reserve judgement until I get a few games under my belt. Here is hoping a nightbringer in every list won't be a thing and c'tan in general dont get nerfed into oblivion.

 

I think I would feel better if there was another source or 2 to target a multiwound unit and bring a single model back once a turn on a non core unit. I still prefer what we have now vs what we used to have.

 

Im curious to see how having living metal universally will play out.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Ahzek451

[angrom]

And to show that I am not entirely negative.

Here is a base combo that I think can work really well to put some early game pressure.

A command barge with voltaic staff Or relic orbe of resurrection (but with orbe regardless) move and advance first turn to position mid field (ideally on an objective)

and a skorpekh destroyer lord with veil of darkness that teleport himself and a unit of 10 lychguard in front of the command barge for a menacing turn 2 charge

if not dealt with, providing some room for breathing for the rest of the army to position and do something.

 

The lychguard will take the full fury of your opponent turn1 but if any of them survive the orb might resurrect quite a few and the mostly intact army will come as a backup on turn 2

[angrom]

 

I think I would feel better if there was another source or 2 to target a multiwound unit and bring a single model back once a turn on a non core unit.

I agree. hence why I am so frustrated.

They had it quite right until we discovered that the reanimation rite is a just a stupid apothecary ability instead of a targetable +1 to reanimation.

That would have been much better as for right now I don't think ANY of the crypteks are worth their points.

Even better would have been to allow pooling reanimation dices between attacks until the player decide to attempt a reanimation to facilitate the multi wound model saving.

[01RTB01]

Im sorry but this seems excessively negative considering we've not played the new book yet.

 

Don't compare with marines. Compared with where crons were vs where they're about to be I really don't get the doom and gloom. It seems totally disproportionate.

 

Lots more viable than before, plenty things to use, expanded options. I'm failing to see the justification for the excess pessimism.

 

Still grumbling about RP despite it being vastly superior to before.

 

Get some games in then start grumbling :)

[atropos_priest]

The things that will hamper the codex appear to be:

 

1. Very limited number of core units, and the fact that most buffing/synergistic abilities refer to core units

 

2. An emphasis on needing characters to provide the benefits from command protocols, coupled with sub-par characters

 

edit:

oh, and 

3. The units that are expected to be 'stand alone' (for fluff reasons, and because they are not core and hence miss most buffs/teleports etc) have caught the worst of the reanimation protocol change.

Edited October 7, 2020 by atropos_priest

[Captain Idaho]

Reanimation Protocols being poor aside, Skorpech Destroyers are very fast and can take advantage of Obscuring Terrain. Won't save them all the time, but they should make it to melee by about turn 2 most games.

 

Relying on the Nightbringer I think could be a thing for killing large targets or assault units like Bladeguard and Assault Terminators in competitive play, but equally he will be easily neutralised against Eldar and Astra Militarum. Both of which can shoot horrendously well and get access to cheap or bountiful Psykers to cause Mortal Wounds.

 

I'm thinking he's a balanced unit, coming in at 350pts.

 

What I do think may take a bit of time to work out, is fitting in the powerful assault units into a Necrons army. Between Flayed Ones, Skorpech Destroyers and C'tan, we look at the army and find the old staple of mid ranged shooting and resilience to be somewhat compromised.

 

Will Necrons be a combined arms approach, with a need to have a balance between shooting and melee power? Or will we work well isolating one of these and playing up to it, knowing we're going to miss half the army now?

 

Of course I know I've just ended with more questions, but things are up in the air right now!

Edited October 7, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[atropos_priest]

I think midrange shooting and objective grabbing is where we will be at, and what we're strongest at. Warriors are quite resilient, especially in a damage 2 meta. The rest of our stuff is somewhat flimsier, so that will be our resource to manage.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm a big advocate of target saturation, with it likely ending with me getting a tattoo of it on my arm. If we want to keep Warriors alive, we might need to hurl Destroyers, Flayed Ones, Triarch Praetorians and Lychguard at the enemy.

 

Simplistic and there's more to it but I think the principle can remain at our core.

 

I don't think you're wrong. Midfield is definitely our sweet spot.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[atropos_priest]

I'm worried that command protocols require a character near by. Crypteks just kinda suck now, such a tax.

[Captain Idaho]

I do like the Plasmancer for the Mortal Wounds generation plus his shooting attack, but yeah Crypyeks are very specific.

[01RTB01]

I'm worried that command protocols require a character near by. Crypteks just kinda suck now, such a tax.

Techmancer and chronomancer are looking great and very very useful imo

 

Also command protocols are useful but not game breaking. By comparison marine captain/ lietenant buffs are severely diminished from what was

Edited October 7, 2020 by 01RTB01

[Marshal Loss]

I think the book looks great. There are some negatives - Ophydian Destroyers suck compared to Wraiths/Skorpekh (I don't think the writers knew how to differentiate them), and Monoliths being LoW will heavily restrict how often they appear on the board. But by and large I think GW have done a solid job

[Ahzek451]

It's really not a bad book. As long as we don't get left behind if GW decides to do a design change.

I would tweek: 

RP is fine as is. I would make the reanimator less of a crap unit. Add in more opportunities to bring back a model from a MW unit. As it stands, we have one model that can do it consistently and he's locked into core. Szeres can not only do it 2 times, but is not limited to reanimating core. So he is your go-to for rezing anything but core. Other than that, we have just a couple one-use items here and there. Take the limit off of core from techmancers. 

 

Maybe add in a strat or ability somewhere that lets you require 1 less wound to bring back a MW model or something similar. 

 

I see a lot of suggestions in other threads that say fixing the issue would involve allowing  MW back whenever they recover 1 wound, and so would come back at partial health (example: 2 skorpekh destroyers die, 6 dice are rolled resulting in 4 successes, bring back 1 model at full health and the second with 1 wound). That's too much across the board. But like I said, another opportunity to help boost the ability to come back on a unit or 2 thats not locked into a special character would be nice. Or a precious one use item. 

The new rules still don't address units with RP that are taken in units of 1 or anything that is not taken at max strength. I realise this can be a ***** to balance. Reanimating a wiped unit is a touchy subject. But there has got to be a way to mitigate this somehow. My issue is that we are still incentivized to take units at full strength, or at least, not at the min. Admittingly I am not sure how to work this one. My initial instinct is to copy the strat that gives a fallen HQ to res, but I am not sure about that one. It's better now, but not by much. 

 

The monolith being a LOW still doesn't quite sit right with me. But I'll wait to play with this a bit more before scrutinizing this change further.

 

I am not sure what they were thinking with ophydians. I mean, there are a ton of close combat units they can be compared to, but for simplicity lets look to their cousins the wraiths. I geuss they were thinking a better weapon skill, and deep strike would make them comparable? *shrugs*. I'll buy a unit, but most likely won't use them. Too many other units to play with. I'm looking forward to using a unit of spyders with a few squads of scarabs.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Ahzek451

[Stupidity]

My biggest disappointment is the LOW Monolith and the Warlord Traits. I understand why they changed Merciless Tyrant but there's no reason it has to become so generic. All the Warlord Traits seem pretty... uninspired. 

 

Ophydians will probably never see play outside the melee focused dynasty or some kind of chronomancer combo. 

 

On the plus side:

35 point wraiths! Worth having a 4++. 

Prismatic Dimensional Breach! Viable deepstriking from Nightscythes. 

Ethereal Interception! Deathmark at 18 points are value. Considering taking ten and parking midfield to punish characters and deepstrikers. 

CCB remains decent!

Warriors seem ok!

Viable melee units with strategem support!

[Ahzek451]

I''ll amend  my stance slightly. I'm totally down for all the destroyer units not being core and falling underneath the command umbrella of the non-destroyer lords. They can have the re-rolls from the D. Lords and that's their thing. It matches the lore and creates a unique playstyle. What does not make sense, is the crypteks rites of reanimation being stuck with core. Lore-wise, they construct and maintain the canoptek units and they were the ones to give the enhancements to the destroyers anyway. You're telling me he can't fix/heal these units?

[Fajita Fan]

I'm a big advocate of target saturation, with it likely ending with me getting a tattoo of it on my arm. If we want to keep Warriors alive, we might need to hurl Destroyers, Flayed Ones, Triarch Praetorians and Lychguard at the enemy.

 

Simplistic and there's more to it but I think the principle can remain at our core.

 

I don't think you're wrong. Midfield is definitely our sweet spot.

I'm not a pro player by any stretch of the imagination but looking at the point values and how RP is best served on large blocks of single wound models (aka blobs of warriors) it looks like an army based around 20 man warrior squads will be the simplest way to survive a few turns.  Necrons may be - literally - space zombies now best played as a horde army.  

[Ahzek451]

My first run will be an easy list of 2 20 warrior blocks with a ghost ark, cryptek, 2 doomstalkers at it's core. And then whatever else I feel like fitting in. 

[Tyriks]

While I don't love every rule change we are getting, I think we will be massively better than in 8th, so I'm not complaining.  Especially with a lot of Marine stuff getting nerfed we could be in a pretty good spot for awhile.

[Fajita Fan]

I wonder how viable tarpitting will be in 9th, it almost makes me think two blobs of flayers and one blob of reapers would give me some flexibility, I should have enough bodies soon.  Is that really the best way to get the most of RP?  This almost feels like a WHFB Empire army, a whole blob of guys wandering forward with a few cannons in the back lobbing shots.  

Edited October 7, 2020 by Fajita Fan

[Mr4Minutes]

Just some caution on the Doomstalker for those who haven’t seen the data sheet. It blows up on a 5+ and does d3 MWs to everything within 6”.

 

It’s going to draw a lot of firepower (I’m guessing) and will potentially devastate a gun line. Especially if you’re running 3.

[Fajita Fan]

Just some caution on the Doomstalker for those who haven’t seen the data sheet. It blows up on a 5+ and does d3 MWs to everything within 6”.

 

It’s going to draw a lot of firepower (I’m guessing) and will potentially devastate a gun line. Especially if you’re running 3.

Yeah and shoots overwatch at a unit charging a friendly unit within 6" so you're gonna want to use it as cover.  I'd be tempted to just park them in the corners and use them like lascannon Devastors who will have crazy LoS at that height.  

[Irate Khornate]

I can see 3 kinds of lists forming due to rules interactions; silver tide with king or C'tan, canoptek, and cult of destruction. These seem to be the army themes that stick out like a sore thumb to me. Silver tide taking advantage of the core keyword and model saturation, Canoptek being lead by technomancers and running up the board, then Cult of Destruction relying on Skorp lord aura and built in abilities of all the other destroyer models to be able to ignore the core keyword almost entirely

[Captain Idaho]

I have to wonder where the older kits fit in, as Annihilation Barges and Doomsday Arks etc could be powerful, though I've not checked the new rules. (got to have some exciting things to look at in the book Saturday)

 

But yeah, I think those will potentially be the 3 most common lists. I know I'm feeling Destroyers calling me.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Silver tide is going to be the way for me. Now if I could just get these immortals painted....