Anti-Infantry Melee in 9th

[Thoridon]

With this set of numbers I wanted to compare our anti-infantry melee units in 9th. Units like assault marines, close combat scouts and assault intercessors lack the weapon choices to be hard hitters and are more suited to focusing on enemy infantry. As a direct comparison to them I included some elite units with the cheaper anti-infantry weapons, not including the multi-damage options here. For the points efficiency I had them all on foot, though some of the included units have the option to be run with jump packs.

 

DC CS = Death Company with Chainsword (originals)

Assault DC = Primaris Death Company with chainsword/pistol loadout.

 

Here's how they look:

 

 

As noted in another topic, VV with a pair of lightning claws seem the standout anti-infantry melee option. They give up a pistol for that but the damage output across all unit types is still really good along with being the best against 'chaff'.

 

Interestingly DC with a chainsword, VV with dual chainswords and both assault intercessor variants are all fairly close together in terms of both output and efficiency. They all have a similar number of total attacks with the same chainswords and no major abilities that skew things.

 

For me, the basic assault marines and scouts are not worth running. Only having 1 base attack is a real limiting factor, and in the case of scouts they lack AP, the extra wound and take up an elite slot. I don't think either are worth it as a melee unit at all.

 

The new assault intercessors (and Primaris DC with that loadout) are actually slightly less points efficient in melee than VV with dual chainswords but they do bring that 18" -1 AP pistol to the table.

 

Honestly, if this stays the same I'll be building some dual lightning claw Vanguard Vets. Add a jump pack and they're still vastly more points efficient than the rest while gaining the mobility, plus they have that massive advantage if they run into anything tougher than a guardsman.

 

If I'm looking to run a unit on foot it'll depend on how I want to use them. The nice thing with the rest is it doesn't matter a whole lot which unit you take (aside from basic assault marines and scouts). If you want to utilise Rhinos/Razorbacks you have the original DC or Vanguard Vets close together, and if you want to use an Impulsor both the new Primaris units are about the same efficiency too - one just slightly more expensive than the other. Stratagems could affect the choice too if there's a combo you really like.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Jolemai
Tags

[Brother Cruoris]

Nice presentation. =)

To keep in mind, assault intercessor can use the fight again strat. So if enough survive they could supersede the VV with 2x claws in dmg output and points efficiency.

[Brother Cruoris]

After seeing your comparisons i think i have to break of some arms on my VV and make a squad with lightning claws. =)

Is lightning claw and SS still an option?

[Midnightmare]

Always fancied building a full unit with lightening claws!

[Blindhamster]

did you include attack twice for assault intercessors?

[Indefragable]

Too much effort to go back and add this in (especially since I seem to be the only person so bullish on them), but how do Incursors fit into the above? Even just a napkin math comparison would be appreciated. 

[Blindhamster]

Too much effort to go back and add this in (especially since I seem to be the only person so bullish on them), but how do Incursors fit into the above? Even just a napkin math comparison would be appreciated. 

In theory, between Assault Intercessors and Knife Scouts. They have the AP-1 like AI, but only 3 attacks (on the charge) like the scouts.

 

If the AI use the attack twice strat, it looks like it brings them up to better than VV for anything T4 3+ and no Inv or worse. Which is good - means they'll be a decent bully unit.

[Karhedron]

If the AI use the attack twice strat, it looks like it brings them up to better than VV for anything T4 3+ and no Inv or worse. Which is good - means they'll be a decent bully unit.

Indeed but then you are expending CPs which are a different resource to points but a resource all the same. If building LC VanVets, I would be tempted to chuck 1-2 Storm Shields on the squad as the boost to 2+/4++ now gives boosted protection against both heavy weapons and small arms fire.

[Blindhamster]

 

If the AI use the attack twice strat, it looks like it brings them up to better than VV for anything T4 3+ and no Inv or worse. Which is good - means they'll be a decent bully unit.

Indeed but then you are expending CPs which are a different resource to points but a resource all the same. If building LC VanVets, I would be tempted to chuck 1-2 Storm Shields on the squad as the boost to 2+/4++ now gives boosted protection against both heavy weapons and small arms fire.

 

true but its worth keeping in mind, and marine lists seem to generally have more CP these days. Plus they're troops so fill the tax and also have ObjSec

[Thoridon]

Yeah, stratagems can change things :) Fighting again is one such that can have a good impact. I felt the only fair comparison was to calculate them all in the base situation without stratagems or buffs and then look into specific scenarios from there.

 

Similarly scouts aren’t the strongest unit but if you only have a handful of points left maybe a small squad of them could be useful for actions (though I’d probably go bolters over knives).

[Thoridon]

After seeing your comparisons i think i have to break of some arms on my VV and make a squad with lightning claws. =)

Is lightning claw and SS still an option?

1 claw and SS is possible :) The numbers are between dual chainswords and dual claws. Not too bad if you’re looking for added resilience.

[cretacianborn]

Do you think 5 VV with LC's would do well running them as Flesh Tearers? The +1 to wound and -1 AP on 6's chapter tactic seems like it might pair well with lightning claws profile.

[Thoridon]

I think they’d be perfect for Flesh Tearers. You’re rolling a lot of dice with all the extra attacks so you have a good chance of a bunch of 6s. And claws will definitely tear flesh!

[Thoridon]

Too much effort to go back and add this in (especially since I seem to be the only person so bullish on them), but how do Incursors fit into the above? Even just a napkin math comparison would be appreciated. 

Sorry, missed this. An Incursor should have identical melee output to a regular Assault Marine (3 -1 AP paired blade attacks vs 3 -1 AP chainsword attacks). The Incursor will be slightly less points efficient from a purely melee perspective, but obviously brings more to the table in terms of ranged output, being a troop, mines and so on.

[Jolemai]

Added to resources