First time list - SoH 3000 pts, C&C appreciated

[StratoKhan]

Here is my first attempt to build a Heresy-era army.
Some models I chose just because I like them, but I don’t want the list to be total garbage.
Before I start buying models, I have a few things I’m not sure of:

- am I packing enough anti-tank punch? I see this list as only having the Spartan & Venator giving any kind of anti-armour capabilities, but the Drop Pod Leviathan and Assault Squad with Melta bombs should also take out a few vehicles...
- took a Power weapon on the Moritat: will it ever pay itself back?
- Lightning Claw Terminators: are they viable or waste of points?
- similarly, are Volkite Chargers worth the extra pts vs combi bolters? I do think the weapons look cool
- Phosphex Discharger on the Drop Leviathan - waste of points?
- Apothecary w/jump pack: was considering artificer armour but decided against it...

Ok, here we go:

 

 

EDIT ----- 2nd attempt at list: ----- EDIT

Sons of Horus 35th Co.

Rite of War: The Long March

 

+ HQ +

[440pts]

 

Legion Praetor ​Kyndrak Arkhelon
Warlord
Cataphractii Terminator Armour
Master-crafted Paragon Blade, Digital Lasers, Combi Bolter
[185pts]

 

Chaplain ​Kadhu Esarhaddon
Cataphractii Terminator Armour
Crozius (Power Axe), Combi Bolter
[120pts]

 

Moritat ​Issarion Keoghar
Artificer Armour, Jump Pack
2 Volkite Serpentas
[135pts]

 

+ Elites +

[850pts]

 

Apothecarion Detachment

Apothecary ​​Theris
Power Armour, Jump Pack
Narthecium, Power Sword

[70pts]

 

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought ​​Ancient Lagash

Kheres-pattern Assault Cannons x 2

[180pts]

 

Legion Terminator Squad ​​​Taraddon
Cataphractii Terminator Armour
Terminator Sergeant ​Taraddon
Grenade Harness, Combi Bolter, Power Axe
3 Terminators
Power Axe, Combi Bolter

3 Terminators
Chainfist, Combi Bolter
[275pts]
Dedicated Transport:

​​Spartan Assault Tank ​Magna Sepulcrum

Quad Lascannon Sponsons x2, Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Armoured Ceramite
[325pts]

 

+ TROOPS+

[995pts]

 

Legion Assault Squad Eshkarus
Assault Sergeant ​Eshkarus
Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Power Fist
14 Assault Marines
Bolt Pistols and CCWs, Melta Bombs, Power Axe x3
[370pts]

 

Legion Tactical Squad ​Khemo
Sergeant ​​Khemo

​Bolter

9 Tactical Space Marines
Bolters

Dedicated Transport:

Rhino Armoured Carrier

[160pts]

 

 

Legion Tactical Squad ​Eshtaron
Sergeant ​​Eshtaron

​Bolter

9 Tactical Space Marines
Bolters

Dedicated Transport:

Rhino Armoured Carrier

[160pts]

 

 

Legion Tactical Squad ​Tarekatus
Sergeant ​​Tarekatus

​Bolter

9 Tactical Space Marines
Bolters

Dedicated Transport:

Rhino Armoured Carrier

[160pts]

 

Legion Tactical Support Squad Malegant
Sergeant​ Malegant

Bolt Pistol, Volkite Caliver

5 Space Marines
​Bolt Pistols, Frag & Krak Grenades, Volkite Calivers

[145pts]

 

+ FAST ATTACK +

[120pts]

 

Land Speeder Squadron ​Novacula

​Land Speeder

​Graviton Gun, Heavy Bolter, Hunter Killer Missile

 

 

Land Speeder

​Graviton Gun, Heavy Bolter, Hunter Killer Missile

[120pts]

 

+ HEAVY SUPPORT+

[600pts]

 

Leviathan Siege Dreadnought ​Ancient Opallo

Armoured Ceramite

Leviathan Siege Claw, Leviathan Siege Drill, Phosphex Discharger, Heavy Flamer x2

Dedicated Transport

​Dreadnought Drop Pod

[410pts]

 

Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer ​Attonitus

[190pts]

 

++ TOTAL POINTS [​3,005pts] ++

 

ORIGINAL LIST:

+ HQ +
[454pts]

Legion Praetor
Warlord
Cataphractii Terminator Armour
Master-crafted Paragon Blade, Volkite Charger
[177pts]

Chaplain
Cataphractii Terminator Armour
Crozius (Power Axe), Volkite Charger
[127pts]

Moritat
Artificer Armour, Jump Pack
2 Volkite Serpentas, Power Axe
[150pts]

+ Elites +
[825pts]

Apothecarion Detachment
Apothecary
Power Armour
Narthecium, Augury Scanner, Chainsword
Apothecary
Power Armour, Jump Pack
Narthecium, Power Sword
[120pts]

Legion Terminator Squad
Cataphractii Terminator Armour
Terminator Sergeant
Grenade Harness, Volkite Charger, Power Axe
4 Terminators
Pair of Lightning Claws
3 Terminators
Power Fist, Volkite Charger
1 Terminator
Chainfist, Volkite Charger
[380pts]
Dedicated Transport:
Spartan Assault Tank
Quad Lascannon Sponsons x2, Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Armoured Ceramite
[325pts]

+ Troops +
[805pts]

Legion Assault Squad
Assault Sergeant
Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Power Fist
14 Assault Marines
Bolt Pistols and CCWs, Melta Bombs, Power Axe x3
[370pts]

Legion Tactical Squad
Sergeant
Bolter
9 Tactical Space Marines
Bolters
[125pts]

Legion Tactical Squad
Sergeant
Bolter
9 Tactical Space Marines
Bolters
[125pts]

Legion Tactical Support Squad
Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Volkite Caliver
8 Space Marines
Bolt Pistols, Frag and Krak Grenades, Volkite Calivers
[185pts]

+ Heavy Support +
[920pts]

Leviathan Siege Dreadnought
Armoured Ceramite
Leviathan Siege Claw, Leviathan Siege Drill, Phosphex Discharger, Heavy Flamer x2
Dedicated Transport
Dreadnought Drop Pod
[410pts]

Leviathan Siege Dreadnought
Armoured Ceramite
Leviathan Storm Cannon, Leviathan Siege Claw, Heavy Flamer x2
[300pts]

Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer
Armoured Ceramite
[210pts]

++ Total: [3,003pts] ++

[Lautrec the Embraced]

Greetings, I can answer some questions of yours.

 

- there is never too much firepower! But maybe it will suffice. If you need some cheap anti tank options then fast attack slot has some interesting choices: Attack Bikes, Javelins and Sky Slayers are all very mobile and packs multii meltas 

 

- Lightning Claws are tricky. They are great at munching power armour but are sadly quite pricy. However, your legions tactics gives weapons striking on initiative (so, swords or claws) potential for extra attack if you outnumber your target, so lightning claws can very well first help trigger this rule and then benefit from that extra attacks. So, I think they are ok, though I'd take fewer.

 

Speaking about Terminators, it's generally agreeable that chainfists are safer bet than fists. Consider turning 1-2 power fists into chainfists. You'd thank me later when you meet a dreadnought.

One more note on them - someone gotta die first. It just happens, often before you even get to swing your weapons. I'd much rather have, let's say 2 termis with just TLbolter and power sword or axe to die first just in case than be forced to immediately eliminate expensive lightning claws or fist/volkite ones.

 

Volkites are ... . Dunno, some people like them, some don't. You get better BS than other legions and it will show more with volkites than twin linked boltguns so it might make them more effective. I'd say give them a try if they appeal to you.

I usually put my trust into combi-weapons but I don't want to discourage you from your own ideas.

 

- Moritat is hardly a popular choice so whatever you do for him concerning weapons  won't likely be looked down upon. Personally, I always give any officer at least a power weapon.

 

- Phosphex on Leviathan is not an option. It's mandatory, well, at least it should be. For me it's a must unless you go full on vehicle hunting with Melta and don't have points for extra infantry killing phosphex.

 

One tweak for the second leviathan that I'd propose is to go with Volkite stead of flamers. Leviathan storm cannon is not really well liked but it can work just fine - yet flamers will be wasted for most turns. With calivers you add some reliable shooting at a similiar range.

 

I noticed one more thing. Unless I'm mistaken, you can take Rite of War "the Long March" without changing literally anything. You have met the requirements and can get it for some free extra rules. They ain't amazing but nifty enough. Relentless would be nice for Support squad and Fleet ain't half bad either for walking through No Mans Land. And reroll of 1s in the first turn helps.

 

Hope it helps a bit. Lookin very decent for a first attempt.

[Varyn]

The list looks good and Lautrec has given you some sound advice.

 

My two cents...

 

- digital lasers on your praetor is a good upgrade

- moritats are tricky, I think that without a destroyer unit to join he can quite easily be shot off the table before he has a chance to chain fire anything. I would also ditch the power axe, if he ends up in assault he will probably die from weight of higher initiative attacks

- personally I am not a fan of volkite callipers, I prefer chargers on support squads as I feel they synergise better with Deathdealer and merciless fighter (BS5 volkite chargers followed by a charge is good fun), give them extra CC weapons for extra carnage

- I would probably only recommend 1 leviathan, you have almost 1/3 of your army in 2 dreadnoughts. Furthermore, if you only take 1, I would go for the drop pod load out and I would swap the claw on the drop pod leviathan for a grav-flux, its an excellent short range weapon ideal which synergises well with the drop pod deployment. 

- if you can find the points for some rhinos for your 3 tactical units then they will appreciate the protection!

 

Which unit is the apothecary on foot joining?

 

If you opt for The Long March as Lautrec recommended then you can get a lot of mileage from heavy support squads: relentless in your own deployment zone is great

[Vykes]

Eyas Stratokhan, first and foremost, welcome to the 16^th! And good on ya for picking a company right off! We're the lot that can do a bit of everything, so I don't think there's too many 'wrong answers'. :P Lautrec and Varyn both got a fair bit covered but I figured I'd probably add my two cents (which now rounds down to zero in the Great White north, and given I don't care much about some that whole competitive track, is weighted accordingly).

 

There is a TL;DR version below. 

 

Alright, them questions first.

-The amount of Anti-tank in here is 'sufficient', not too much, not too little, there's multiple units that can handle armour from light to heavy stuff decently. 15 man strong squads with melta bombs in particular is pretty nice, it'll crack open quite a few targets with relative ease. My real worry is the sheer lack of bodies at that frightening 3K mark. Even a few casualties here and there might savage those smaller squads so they won't be able to hold strong points against a dedicated attack by a more numerous opponent and don't have the speed to hit and push holding units off those same objectives. I typically run 1.5K centurion lists with more troopers than what's around here, and with some of the heavy options on the table at 3K, I worry for the sanctity of the smaller tactical units.

-Power weapons on Moritats are just as good as on any other standard centurion, it's just that Moritats are already inordinately expensive (especially my ever so beloved Plasmitat) and they're still easy enough to drag down with a few unlucky bolter shots. Likewise, while 'power axe' is the common refrain for most legions, I don't think it's necessarily the right one for Sons of Horus. You still have a centurion stat-line, you strike pretty well, you count as bulky so at least you count as 2 models, but you aren't doughy. Opponents that have an AP 2 Initiative 1 power weapon might just be 'trading up' by being able to slice you down just as easily as you can return the favour, and at those points it's gonna be painful. If it's some non-artificer no-name objective sitter sergeant, or you're on your last wound and get swarmed by a few pitiful gravel munchers, use that higher initiative and an ap3 power sword to slice through 'em before they get you. It's a risk, but honestly I think it's worth it on this if you're going the power-weapon route.

-Lightning Claw terminators... they're... a thing. I like having a lightning claw (they look cool, I'm rule of cool) but most math says they aren't worth it because if you're in a mirror fight trying to beat another terminator unit to death, it's gonna mostly glance off their armour. One or two might be fine for trying to open up some gaps in an opponents forces before they can strike back at the usual I1 slug fest, but 4 might be a bit much on top of being expensive.

-Volkite chargers... this is one of those 'your mileage may vary' but I use them on my Reavers, on my command terminators, and I'm slowly adding some standard terminators to the mix because I love 'em. They probably aren't worth the cost increase over combi-bolters, but as Lautrec mentioned, they actually get a sliiiiim boost out of Death Dealers than combi-bolters do.

-Phosphex Discharger on Leviathan... yes... it is still Ap2, creeping death, misery machine. I refuse to use it because it tends to have an inordinate effect on me, but I can say that in the past 3 games I've played (and all of them end up against a frigging Leviathan so I'm sick and tired of em) the launchers mopped a squad by themselves, from 10 to 20 strong.

-Apothecary with jump pack, it's a thing. Not the worst thing to have when your assault squad is your largest squad, your fastest squad, and an AT squad to boot. It will get shot up.

 

On the more specific stuff:

HQ wise: how attached are you to that Chaplain? It's not a terrible choice but it's still a lot of points, and yet another body being crammed into a Spartan tin can with a bunch of other Terminators. It'll definitely make the Terminators good when they get to combat, but it's a full baseline tactical squad. As mentioned before, the digital lasers

 

Elite sorts: the jump pack apothecary is a good investment but as Varyn said, where's the other one going? It doesn't have a natural 'ally' there, as the 10 man squads are too slow/small to really take advantage of his kinda costly nature.

 

Ah Terminators, Cataphractii (looks cool, not my jam. I'm a Tartaros sort as I like the potential sweeping advances/overun). It's an interesting mix. I do think 4 lightning claw termies might be a bit much, 2 or maaaaybe 3 could have a good shot at slicing into opponents early on and hoping to get lucky. I do think that there should be at least as many chainfists around as claws in a unit like that as they handle the other part of the spectrum, the dreads and vehicles that will inevitably get thrown against you. Not much else to say, volkite is cool so I won't complain. Spartan is a choice, just remember that you have only one/two other vehicles on turn 1 if they go first, so it's gonna get focused on by all of your opponents AT. And if I have to choose between trying to go after a Venator or a Spartan, it's the Spartan every time to strand its passengers. The mobility kill here is the worry over the actual physical loss of the unit.

 

The heart of the force, troops. Y'know, this one is what actually scares me. For the most part if you have multiple objectives, troops have to do the heavy lifting and in general you need either numbers, or speed to aggressively take the fight to the enemy. Most people do that through 10 man squads and a Rhino (and I typically have 1 of those around too to 'push' reinforcements and try to sway a fight in my favour locally). The other method is multiple larger units with less upgrades. 30K has you pay up front for your unit, so it gets proportionally cheaper after the initial buy in. 10 men, on foot, even without the usual artificer armour sergeant bullet-sponge ad-hoc special weapons trooper is good for securing an objective later on but if your target is 'leviathan, whom I cannot hurt' or 'that distant group of bolter boys', usually you can expect even a few pot shots to drag some troopers down.

 

Your assault squad is 'about right' for size and with power weapons that are arguably pretty decent, as is the sergeant. It's the tacticals that scare me a bit: adding a cheap rhino to screen and shelter is good, as is bumping them up to about 15 strong with an equipped leader. I do think that the addition of some more bodies in general will help.

 

As for the Caliver squad.... well I love it. The uptick in range and strength is pretty big and can help even out challenges quickly. It only gets more important against non marine units, where the extra strength can start to be telling by providing Instant Death against militia and thralls, and in finally being able to inflict some wounds on big-bots and daemons. It definitely has a place, and with a rite like 'the long war' they can move around inside their own deployment zone which makes them quite a bit more useful in avoiding line of sight or hunting out those sneaky rats trying to get away from you. The Volkite caliver squad and the charger squads are both excellent, but are very VERY different beasts. Calivers are excellent 'musket' squads, lined up and firing volleys into oncoming enemies from relatively safe range. They don't get Death Dealers, so they won't be getting psuedo BS5, but they can still use the Long March reroll 1's on turn 1, which is nice as they often have the range to off-foot someone. The chargers are the little crack assault teams.

 

On to heavy support...that is a lot of Leviathans. Yes they're good. Yes the drop pod, drill, phosphex, lance is super popular for a reason. Yes, in some environments it'll get an automatic eye roll with 'lets get this over with'. But you're also stranding that second Siege Dreadnought and giving it a life of walking alongside the two ten man squads. It's kinda a cool image, but it's also a very expensive one. If the termies were smaller and on a Dreadclaw, then there's a second Dreadnought drop pod so 2 could be around on turn 1... that is something different from the tactical point of view. As it is, you reaaaally gotta hope they don't have something like a melta team or vet group in their back pocket.

 

The Sicaran Venator is a pretty common tank, the armoured ceramite is nice, but it almost feels like a luxury at some points. Not much to say about it.

 

I do suggest something like speeders (people tend to overlook regular speeders for Javelins, which is a bit of a mistake for me: grav guns with haywire can deal remarkably well with even the heaviest flare shielded Spartans that the javelins may not be able to touch). Bikers, jetbikes, even Seekers using Long March trickery for their scorpius bolts, the Fast Attack slot is routinely passed over when it really can act as a pressure tactic to get some of these big, scary, but potentially vulnerable units to-target.

 

TL:DR

I worry you might not have enough bodies, or mobility to really get where you're going with enough left of your formations to make a difference against enemies with dedicated methodologies where you have to adapt to them. 

 

Coming to a conclusion, I do think that one thing matters more than anything else: what did you want the 16^th legion's 35^th company to look like? What's their role, what's their story?  Who commands them?  Just buying another army is a 'thing' but it can quickly lead to burn out or hop-skipping to 'the next army of the week'. The heresy really does do a unique job of presenting players with the ability to have 'Your Dudes' also be canonically fused with the big name legions in a way that 40K's 10-company with history backstory just can't do. It's more varied, it's more fluid, and the SoH are one of the most diverse in that regard. So the answer is: your force might be absolutely perfect for the 35^th, regardless of what anyone else says. It's your company to have fun with, so don't let anyone tell you it's wrong. Cheers mate, and again, welcome to the Warmaster's lot!

 

Lupercal!

[StratoKhan]

Lautrec, Varyn, Vykes - thank you all for taking the time to respond in such a comprehensive way.

 

As for the background, I'm still working on it, but you can see the first draft in the spoiler below:

 

The Sons of Horus 35th is a Company in transition. The Company’s original Terran Captain and his command squad were 'purged’ at Istvaan III, but the old boy was well liked by this men and had his own ways of doing things, so the transition hasn’t been easy. Arkhelon is the new Captain and he is putting the Company through its paces by volunteering for raids on Imperial supply depots and strategic assaults on isolated Loyalist positions. Chaplain Esarhaddon is there to make sure everyone knows the Warmaster is watching everyone, Arkhelon included. The Moritat, Keoghar, was the old Captain’s second, he is Chtonian and a Lodge member but also very conflicted as he was quite close to his old Cap. He wasn't purged during Istvaan, but is considered a little suspect. Leadership have given him the option of seeking an honourable death, but despite his best efforts he just isn’t dying, much to Arkhelon's dismay, as the troops like Keoghar - even more so now that he repeatedly defies death. Up to the events on Istvaan III The 35th Company was a very standard mechanised infantry force, with some supporting armour elements, but in Arkhelon’s bid to prove himself to the Warmaster and also make his stamp on the unit, by the final phases of the Heresy the 35th will have reconverted itself into a relentless forward assault force. Along the way any doubters have been given the honour of going first through the breach, or have been tasked with leading last stands while the rest of the unit escapes. In the Luna Wolves Keoghar would have been a valorous and well-respected Captain, but these are dark times and the faithless rule.

 

 

I have tweaked the army a little, see original post. The older list is in spoiler mode. Would love to know what you think of the changes.

• Long March RoW sounds quite good, I didn't consider it but will be trying it out now,
  
• Praetor: ​good point about the digi-lasers, the extra attack will be useful. Lost the Volkite Charger.
  
• Volkite Chargers were removed to free up points.
  
• Power Axes: I actually didn't realise they were Unwieldly but better vs. Terminators, I just liked the look of them better. Will keep them.
  
• Chaplain: I get the point about him costing almost like a squad. I feel like my Terminator squad is very basic and would benefit from the Chaplain’s bonuses. Lost the Volkite Charger.
  
• Moritat: ​I decided to take this guy’s power weapon away. In my mind he is there to shoot up squads and be a nuisance. If he gets charged I don’t think a power weapon will make much of a difference, he will die. There is no conceivable scenario where I need him to win combats. I’ll run him this way, and a power weapon can be modelled on easily enough later, if I’m wrong.
  
• Apothecaries: The foot medic was supposed to go with the support squad, I thought it would be useful for them to have a little more survivability. I had given him a Augury scanner in case of surprises. But, he is gone now, in favour of more boots on the ground.
  
• Terminators:​ I did like the super well-equipped previous squad, but I've now rejigged the loadouts. Added more chainfists, swapped LCs for PWs. I let the Volkite Chargers go in favour of the good old combi bolter, to open up space in the rest of the list. One Terminator is gone, so we now have 6 Terminators plus the sergeant. Less eggs in one basket.
  
• Troops: ​I thought about this a lot as most people were concerned by my lack of troops. I have added an extra Tac squad, and each squad is in a Rhino now. I gather that in HH many people take a pintle mounted weapon on the Rhinos, but I don't feel like I have the points for that. The only issue I see is that these Tac squads are very basic, the Sgt doesn't have a PF or anything, so whilst they are now more mobile and can grab objectives, if it comes to assaults they won’t be very dangerous.
  
• Fast attack: Added two Land Speeders with Hvy bolters, Grav guns and HK missiles, as I really like the Heresy version of the model and I agree that it could be a useful unit. Not sure about the weapon loadout…
  
• Dreadnoughts: ​I thought about the double Leviathan in drop pods combo, it does look nasty ... I also don't know if I want to be 'that' guy... Also thinking that vs. a Ravenwing, White Scars, or any kind of fast or bike list two lumbering brutes like that could be useless. Not sure how common these lists are though. What I did is I converted the 2nd foot Leviathan to a Contemptor Mortis with Kheres Assault Cannons. It's more of a shooty choice that will hopefully complement the Support Squad and chew up some squads or light vehicles.
  
• Sicaran Venator: dropped the armoured ceramite to free up points, let’s see how it holds up.
  
• Support Squad: I see the Calivers fitting a fire support role better. I see Chargers as being more useful to support assaults, while I was thinking that these guys could help me gun down opposing squads, or bikes, or maybe even speeders? So they would be looking for a good position and moving relatively little. I did reduce the squad size to 5 legionnaires + Sgt.