Codex: Space Marines (9E) - Winners and Losers

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Hello friends!

 

Things are starting to get back to normal IRL, which means I'm starting to find time again to hobby (it's been so long!). As is typical for me, I find more joy in theorycraft and game play than I do in the model/hobbyist side of things, and we have a new Codex in the pipe, which means I have thoughts to share! I am focusing my thoughts on a Raven Guard POV and not a successor.

 

Biggest Winners:

 

Firstborn Marines (Except Scouts and Centurions)

• I think, in general, most of the firstborn units are stronger than they were before. Between the new weapon profiles (Heavy Bolter and Chainsword being the biggest) and 2 wounds, most of these units had new life breathed into them. 
• Vanguard Veterans seem extremely good on paper now. Between the 2 wound change, the Storm Shield change, and the Lightning Claw change, this unit feels fluffier and stronger than ever.
• Devastators (in pods) feel much more viable with 2 wounds a piece in addition to the new Multi-Melta and Heavy Bolter profiles. They did however receive a nerf to Grav-Cannons with the loss of their strat
• Loss of Transhuman Physiology hurts, but its a trade off for mixed-forces. It got better for Primaris, but no longer usable by Firstborn.
• Terminators are (in my opinion) very good now:
  • Costed appropriately
  • 3 Wounds Each
  • Powerfist damage normalized (Buff)
  • New Teleport Homer is VERY good for the current meta/objectives

Dreadnoughts (All Flavors)

• Duty Eternal is now baked in to all Dreads, making them very strong against a lot of the firepower that will be good against the rest of your army
• Big Guns Never Tire inherently helps with the quality of fire dreads can put out, since ideally you want them moving at all times
• Wounds/profiles changed on "bigger" (Redemptor) to now no longer have it degrade. Technically a nerf and a buff, but overall I think a buff
• New meta of "dogpile the center" on objectives makes dreads that are both shooting and fighting even more valuable
• Have CORE. This means they can be buffed by re-rolls (can even buff themselves), in addition to being given obsec by one of two new Relic/WT choices
• Can't wait to see updated Forgeworld rules to see how the Contemptor/Leviathan gets handled

Eradicators

• Not sure what to say here: These are broken. 
• I expect them to get nerfed
• "New model syndrome" - Too strong early on in the release cycle feels intentional to grab sales
  • I own 6 and I won't be playing more than that, as I expect if I purchase more I will end up with a case of the sadpandas when they get nerfed (See Aggressors below)

Chaplains

• New strat: Commanding Oratory (2 CP): Use at the start of any phase. Your chaplain can automatically inspire with their litany, though you can't double dip with a litany that's already been used.
• Now we can Deep Strike/SFTS key melee units right into our opponents lines, use the above to pop Canticle of Hate at the start of our charge phase to get 7" charges
• Between this, and the Swift and Deadly Warlord trait, along with the Infiltrators strategem, we can get quite the crazy alpha/beta strikes off now in melee. If I was a Carcharadons player, this would make me pretty stoked.

 

 

Biggest Losers:

 

Scouts

• Troops -> Elites. Kept 1 wound each. Same price.
• As someone who personally owns 45+ Scouts, this change made me very sad
• While I understand it was a balance choice, the unit feels completely and utterly trash now
• This feels particularly more egregious as a Raven Guard player from a fluff perspective, given our propensity to "rely" on the 10th Co. more than other chapters
• I am getting over it, but it stings and will take a while

Centurions

• Not CORE, so can't be buffed up by as many things
• Didn't receive another wound, still very expensive
• I assembled and painted mine just in time to probably never take them out of my display case again 
• Nerfs to this unit and Aggressors make it very apparent that this book was written when the Aggressor/Centurion bomb was very strong in the tournament meta, and even though since then steps had been taken to bring those units in-line, they were nerfed even further in this book.

Smash Captains

• I don't even know where to begin
• They are so nerfed they go beyond "dead" and now clock in around "mummified" 
• Lost: Fight twice, Fight on Death, Storm Shield 3++, Self Re-Rolls, Thunder Hammer Nerf
• I understand why this was changed from a balance (and lore perspective). I personally enjoy when the meta goes a little hero-hammer, and sadly I had just built two RG Smash Captains off of Revier bodies that to me now feel like they will be sitting in my case next to my Centurions for a long time
• Did they really need to be eviscerated from like 6 angles?

Aggressors

• Lost both special rules (advance and shoot & double shoot)
• While these were very strong, and in-meta, they had fallen out of favor over time
• I understand why they were nerfed, but as someone who owns 12 of them, I'm going to be doing my best to find a home for them in my lists.
• New strategem (along with reduced cost on Transhuman) will be critical to getting value of them on the midboard objectives:
  • Unyielding in the Face of Death (1 CP): Whenever a MK X GRAVIS unit is hit by a weapon with a Damage trait of 1, then they can add 1 to their saves. This won't totally blunt the high AP stuff, but it can diminish heavy bolters and plasma guns.

Shadow Masters (Chapter Tactic)

• We now only get the benefit of Light Cover (+1 Save) when outside 18" instead of 12". Against most armies, the "general" strategy is to push up with punishing short-range firefight units (and melee) and hem the opponent in their DZ while our troops rack up points. This 6" difference affects that play-style quite drastically.
• Units that are less-impacted by this change are less likely to see play in our lists (Vehicles like the new Gladiator, for example). Anything that shoots at long range (36-48"+) and stays at that range all game is better suited. 

 

Rebalanced™

 

Chapter Masters

• Now costs points instead of CP (Buff imo)
• No longer buffs re-rolls in an aura. Restricted to one unit and CORE
• Can now give a CM statline via a Relic (buff)
  • Angel Artifice: Grants a +2 Sv, and +1 T & W.

Eliminators

• Can still shoot characters
• Can no longer shoot through terrain
• Can move-shoot-move with Carbine upgrade on Sergeant (actually makes them quite mobile)
• Sadly didn't get the approval to go to 3-6 unit size (this would have helped a lot)
• Small unit size (3) and being Heavy Support means they are likely to get shelved for Eradicators, for now

Incursors

• Lost exploding attacks
• Gained -1AP in CC
• Mines are now a strat that only works when a unit charges you (pretty bad, imo)
• Can use the new Smokescreen strat (just like infiltrators)

 

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Thank you for the analysis. It will be most useful to those who write their own Codex Supplements for their IA Chapters.

[War of the Eagle]

Im chomping at the bit to play my new updated Raptors. But I honestly not sure how ill play them yet. My army consists of mostly mostly mobile skirmisher units and im afraid they wont be able to brawl over the center like the 9th ed wants them too.

 

Especially with the nerf to our chapter tactics. May have to go custum traits.

 

Thanks for your analysis.

Edited October 8, 2020 by War of the Eagle

[GreyCrow]

It looks like in this edition, they want to streamline and guide the play style of each army to specific playstyles and the changes go into this direction.

 

I think they are doing this as they realize that so many builds are not fluffy because the army “as intended” is less effective than these builds.

 

For Marines it seems that they want to incentivize going with a lot of basic Troops in order to be more in line with the “standard” deployment patterns that Marines use, supported by very specific units.

Doing the math right now, to me it seems that the most effective lists I can come up with somewhat follow a Gladius Strike Force from 7th (Demi company supported by very specific units)

 

I think they are also going back to the old trifecta of : Troops - Fire Support - Distraction units/Bullet sponges. Playing more on the interactions between units than on the individual strength of units.

 

In Marines, mêlée units have either one of 2 potential roles (in the battlefield) :

- Distraction/Speedbump so the fire support units can get damage done and shot at less

- Second line counter assault if the guy spends his time firing at the fire support units

 

Aggressors that you mention for example. On top of a Demi Company where the Close Support role is filled by Reivers and the Fire Support by Hellblasters.

You can run them up the board along with the Dreadnought and the Reivers.

 

Both the Dreads and the Aggressors are going to be prioritized heavily because of the damage potential.

That means that the rest of your Demi Company will be less targeted and therefore will do more damage over the course of a battle.

At 2k points I would run 6-9 Aggressors basically given how “cheap” they are.

 

Alternatively, they can be ran up just behind/next to the battleline Troops as they move up the board. If the guy prioritizes Intercessors because they are easier to kill, then you have a reserve of guys ready to pump shots or fist to death anything that gets close.

 

9 Aggressors take 24.3 Lascannon shots to kill. 32 if Transhuman physiology.

9 Aggressors take 48 Overcharged Plasma Shots to kill. 65 if Transhuman physiology.

They also take 183 Bolt Rifle shots in Tactical Doctrine (AP-2) to kill. 243 with the new Gravis stratagems.

 

That’s a very very significant amount of firepower. They will buy time to other units.

 

You can’t prevent the opponent from killing stuff, so the goal in list building is to make sure you benefit even if your stuff is killed.

 

Aggressors won’t carry games like they used to, well actually they will but not as ostensibly. They will carry games because the opponent will waste so much firepower trying to kill them that this will mean the rest of the army will be relatively unscathed.

Less dead elsewhere = more guns = more damage.

 

Will Plasma Inceptors be preferred ? Probably due to the more immediate payoff. That said, they will blow themselves up and will be hard countered in melee now that only Ultras can fall back and shoot.

 

Aggressors are still good, just harder to play than previously in my opinion, since they rely on target priority synergies.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Smash captains for Raven Guard aren't totally dead imo.  They are still the best close combat weapon to use against monsters with invuln saves and with the Raven Guard stratagem Lay Low the Tyrant it is easy to wound on 2s and of course against characters smash captains still hit and wound most things on 2s.  Smash captains are only worse against vehicles without invuln saves and of course cannot be used as a suicide missile with fight twice, fight on death.  They still have a place but arent going to be good against anything and everything.  

 

Aggressors are still going to be a key unit.  We have seen horde lists win tournaments in 9th and Aggressors are still the best source of output.  I personally like the flamers the best now.  They are a terrific deep strike denial unit that can auspex scan and overwatch efficiently and be be a major threat to big characters like knights or greater daemons.  A 5 man unit will be very durable with 1 CP for transhuman and/or psychic fortress.  With a Judiciar close by no one will go anywhere near them.  I think they just got nerfed from insane to solid/competitive.  I expect eradicators to lose their double shoot ability for the same reason.

 

Bikes for Raven Guard are going to be really good also.  They got 3 wounds and with Swift and Deadly you can run diet White Scars list.  I like 5 man biker units with chain swords for chaff clearing and character sniping.  

[Jacques Corbin]

My poor Scouts, and Thunderfire Cannons... Edited October 10, 2020 by Jacques Corbin

[Dracos]

... and Eliminators.

 

With the small nerf and the introduction of overhyped Eradicators and other new heavy support units, the Eliminators have lost their job to Heavy Intercessors as a backfield unit.

[Commander Nicky]

... and Eliminators.

 

With the small nerf and the introduction of overhyped Eradicators and other new heavy support units, the Eliminators have lost their job to Heavy Intercessors as a backfield unit.

I still believe that the Eliminators, now that they have BS 2+, have a role to play, taking out characters instead...

[Jacques Corbin]

 

 

... and Eliminators.

 

With the small nerf and the introduction of overhyped Eradicators and other new heavy support units, the Eliminators have lost their job to Heavy Intercessors as a backfield unit.

I still believe that the Eliminators, now that they have BS 2+, have a role to play, taking out characters instead...

Well, more like providing an area where enemy characters are in danger, until the Eliminators are removed. But that has a value all in its own...

[Dracos]

 

... and Eliminators.

 

With the small nerf and the introduction of overhyped Eradicators and other new heavy support units, the Eliminators have lost their job to Heavy Intercessors as a backfield unit.

I still believe that the Eliminators, now that they have BS 2+, have a role to play, taking out characters instead...

 

 

I don't necessarily disagree. It is just that they are taking up precious Heavy Support slots and competing with Grav Cents and Devs, and Eradicators. If they had received the 3-6 treatment the Bladeguard and Eradicators did then they would compete in that slot better. As is they should be Elite .... mind you there is a ton (Reivers) that needs moved out of Elite but that's another conversation. :)

[Jacques Corbin]

How about the good old Venerable Dreadnought with Twin Lascannons and Missile Launcher? Between Chapter Tactics and himself being <Core> he has a lot going for him. Anybody notice Wisdom of the Ancients grants reroll 1s to hit or wound to core units? And the Dreadnought is core! He still shoots on a 2+ and does not degrade. Also, he reduces damage taken by 1 (minimum 1), like all dreads, and still has his 6+FNP.

 

Kinda sucks that you need to use a stratagem to pop smoke though...

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

How about the good old Venerable Dreadnought with Twin Lascannons and Missile Launcher? Between Chapter Tactics and himself being <Core> he has a lot going for him. Anybody notice Wisdom of the Ancients grants reroll 1s to hit or wound to core units? And the Dreadnought is core! He still shoots on a 2+ and does not degrade. Also, he reduces damage taken by 1 (minimum 1), like all dreads, and still has his 6+FNP.

 

Kinda sucks that you need to use a stratagem to pop smoke though...

Smoke got much better though!  You dont lose shooting or have to guess what your opponent will target.   

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Death to the false Smash Captain!  They still need a double tap to the dome.  Shame on the sons of Corax for debasing themselves so.  Corvus used Lighting claws.  So should we.

 

Scouts.....  How they got singled out for the hammer is crazy.  Like they were good.  Poor scout sergeant.  How he got left behind on the 2 wound train?

[Dracos]

Intercessor Sgts as Winners

 

I had a power fist (Bolt Rifle) Sgt chew through half a squad of 20 Necron Warriors tonight. I can't wait to finish the Assault Intercessors and shove a couple ofthem into the midboard. :)

[ShinyRhino]

Death to the false Smash Captain! They still need a double tap to the dome. Shame on the sons of Corax for debasing themselves so. Corvus used Lighting claws. So should we.

 

Scouts..... How they got singled out for the hammer is crazy. Like they were good. Poor scout sergeant. How he got left behind on the 2 wound train?

Scouts got splattered because they were the easy way to fill detachments at minimal points cost. They were the Marine equivalent to a Loyal 32.

My guess is they didn't want people filling up on cheap, obsec scoring snipers in cloaks.

[Dracos]

Yes 3+/5++ ObSec Troops of 20 per unit that count as double is way more balanced for 9e ;)

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, now on Scouts. 5 snipers in cloaks is a cheap Elite unit. Granted there are cheaper ways to fill a crowded slot already. Also, the Land Speeder Storm got it's dirty trick back on its Cerebus Launcher as a stratagem. It's not much, but they do not totally suck.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Well, now on Scouts. 5 snipers in cloaks is a cheap Elite unit. Granted there are cheaper ways to fill a crowded slot already. Also, the Land Speeder Storm got it's dirty trick back on its Cerebus Launcher as a stratagem. It's not much, but they do not totally suck.

 

I disagree. I think they are hot garbage. I think they are by far the worst elites choice in the codex, and I cannot imagine a scenario for taking them anymore.

 

I think if they wanted to no longer make them an auto-take, they should have made a provision where you cannot have more units of <Scout Squad> than you do of Non-<Scout Squad> Troop selections, while keeping scouts troops. The elites slot is super over-crowded and very competitive in the marine book. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Well, now on Scouts. 5 snipers in cloaks is a cheap Elite unit. Granted there are cheaper ways to fill a crowded slot already. Also, the Land Speeder Storm got it's dirty trick back on its Cerebus Launcher as a stratagem. It's not much, but they do not totally suck.

Yeah but you dont need to fill that slot if you dont want to.  Scout snipers offer nothing of value to any list imo.  I would only take them if my model collection was so limited that taking them was the only way to fill out my list. 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

Death to the false Smash Captain! They still need a double tap to the dome. Shame on the sons of Corax for debasing themselves so. Corvus used Lighting claws. So should we.

 

Scouts..... How they got singled out for the hammer is crazy. Like they were good. Poor scout sergeant. How he got left behind on the 2 wound train?

Scouts got splattered because they were the easy way to fill detachments at minimal points cost. They were the Marine equivalent to a Loyal 32.

My guess is they didn't want people filling up on cheap, obsec scoring snipers in cloaks.

 

 

 

 

Filling detachments is no longer a thing much less a problem.  Leaving off the 2 wound list was plenty harsh.  Moving to elite was cruel.  Elite rookies.  Oximoronic.

[ShinyRhino]

 

 

 

Death to the false Smash Captain! They still need a double tap to the dome. Shame on the sons of Corax for debasing themselves so. Corvus used Lighting claws. So should we.

 

Scouts..... How they got singled out for the hammer is crazy. Like they were good. Poor scout sergeant. How he got left behind on the 2 wound train?

Scouts got splattered because they were the easy way to fill detachments at minimal points cost. They were the Marine equivalent to a Loyal 32.

My guess is they didn't want people filling up on cheap, obsec scoring snipers in cloaks.

 

 

Filling detachments is no longer a thing much less a problem. Leaving off the 2 wound list was plenty harsh. Moving to elite was cruel. Elite rookies. Oximoronic.

I didn't say it was thre correct choice of course, just my assumed reasoning for it.

 

Not sure why folks still cling to that "pure rookie" label for Scouts though. They're perfectly capable fighters who just happen to wear lighter armor than those one rank above them. There are lots of instances of Scouts being elite operators, such as in Helion Rain and Loss.

[defl0]

Phobos seem like a big winner with the guerilla tactic strat. 

 

Vanguard Vets are spectacular with 2 wounds, upgraded chain swords and the new storm shield

 

Lightning claws are better

 

attack bikes are solid as they don't get the -1 to hit

 

Rits of War is crazy good as a WLT

 

I also like the iron resolve WLT and armor of shadow on a gravis captain

 

flyers are especially good with RG as they get cover at range and can snipe characters up close

 

2 for 1 Lts is interesting as reivers can turn off ob sec and ex tenebris is still solid

[MajorNese]

 

Filling detachments is no longer a thing much less a problem.  Leaving off the 2 wound list was plenty harsh.  Moving to elite was cruel.  Elite rookies.  Oximoronic.

Filling detachments is key, when you look at the usual problem where people want to bring 3 Eradicator squads and have no leftover HS slots. A brigade offers 2 more slots for FA/HS, people would be tempted to go that route, which requires 3 more troops choices. At the old points cost, I would have understood moving them to Elites. But at 14 ppm for a 1W 4+ scout and 18ppm for a 2W 3+ tac, that point becomes moot anyway - they are not that much cheaper, but substantially weaker than their next more expensive alternative.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

 

Filling detachments is no longer a thing much less a problem.  Leaving off the 2 wound list was plenty harsh.  Moving to elite was cruel.  Elite rookies.  Oximoronic.

Filling detachments is key, when you look at the usual problem where people want to bring 3 Eradicator squads and have no leftover HS slots. A brigade offers 2 more slots for FA/HS, people would be tempted to go that route, which requires 3 more troops choices. At the old points cost, I would have understood moving them to Elites. But at 14 ppm for a 1W 4+ scout and 18ppm for a 2W 3+ tac, that point becomes moot anyway - they are not that much cheaper, but substantially weaker than their next more expensive alternative.

 

 

 

 

Filling detachments is no longer a thing much less a problem.  Leaving off the 2 wound list was plenty harsh.  Moving to elite was cruel.  Elite rookies.  Oximoronic.

Filling detachments is key, when you look at the usual problem where people want to bring 3 Eradicator squads and have no leftover HS slots. A brigade offers 2 more slots for FA/HS, people would be tempted to go that route, which requires 3 more troops choices. At the old points cost, I would have understood moving them to Elites. But at 14 ppm for a 1W 4+ scout and 18ppm for a 2W 3+ tac, that point becomes moot anyway - they are not that much cheaper, but substantially weaker than their next more expensive alternative.

 

 

I was referring to the old loyal 32 type, cheap detachments, to farm cp.  Not going big to keep all points in one large one to save cp in 9th.  

[MajorNese]

 

I was referring to the old loyal 32 type, cheap detachments, to farm cp.  Not going big to keep all points in one large one to save cp in 9th. 

Even if it is useful for a different reason, it would still be useful. If we still had 55p troops choices, those could be key to get more crucial HS/FA slots, instead of more CP like in 8th. The alternative would be more detachments, which cost CP, so indirectly you get more CP just like before. Either way, now troops have a certain minimum cost that scouts don't circumvent. And by invalidating a go-to troops choice, people get more reasons to buy the new kits - Just As Planned...