Codex: Space Marines (9E) - Winners and Losers

[Alcyon]

I still find myself wasting 100pt and up units baby-sitting backline objectives in games where I don't expect any deep strike in my DZ; Scouts would be a cool, thematic choice for this as would Eliminators, but for points I just don't think you can beat Servitors. I'd like to come up with some kind of funky counts-as so they have some reason to be there. Tech-adepts setting up a relay, or battlefield observers, something like that.

[Dracos]

Regular Intercessors for all Primaris armies.

 

Just as a backfield babysitter though. I’ve been using Eliminators since July as my DZ objective sitters but that slot is soon to be filled with two units of 5 Eradicators. I’m still contemplating a minimum unit of Heavy Intercessors but at 140 points I’m not so sure the threat is so great that regular Intercessors can’t do the job at a cheaper price. Especially if they can get on a terrain feature near the objective. If not See but Unseen is an acceptable use for two Turns.

 

I like the Servitor idea from a points perspective but Ive flipped a couple of my opponents DZ in my favor in 9e already when they didn’t take into account what Inceptors and SftS Aggressors can do when you go All In on the middle of the board. I want one unit that can stand on each objective on its own for a turn or two until reserves arrive to assist.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Dracos

[Alcyon]

My thinking is that between a 9" bubble and a 12" bubble I should be able to screen out my backline from deep-strike, especially on the narrow board edges, and so the backline units don't have to be that resilient since the worst my opponent can do is shoot them off and deny the point. If the units are cheap enough and the board long enough, they'll have to invest in artillery or positioning to shoot at them and I think I can derive value from the 100+ points disparity there.

[Dracos]

I have question

 

Should not Shrike had received extra attack(s?) with the change to Lightning Claws?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I have question

 

Should not Shrike had received extra attack(s?) with the change to Lightning Claws?

 

Should he have? Probably. Will he in the next iteration of our Supplement? Who knows.

[Lord Raven 19]

I have question

 

Should not Shrike had received extra attack(s?) with the change to Lightning Claws?

Yes, but he should've received an extra attack and wound for CM promotion back in 7th and didn't so don't get your hopes up.

[Claws and Effect]

I wholeheartedly disagree on Centurions being relegated to the display case. IMO them not having the CORE keyword is actually a good thing. Because now you won't be tempted to load all your characters up in a blob to buff them. With the fact that we can still deep strike them (for now), we have a dangerous unit that can be dropped in an opponent's backline that they have to deal with. And they take enough firepower to remove that your opponent can either 1) shoot way more of their army at them than they want to or  2) resign themselves to those Centurions having free reign to start nuking stuff they put back there to keep it safe®. 

 

At right around 200 points for 3 Assault Centurions, I'm good with dropping them in my opponent's backline and letting them do their thing without support. The fact that they were so nasty in 8th means people will still consider them a major threat for a while. Use that to your advantage. 

 

Centurions are the best distraction carnifex Raven Guard have available to them now. 

[Alcyon]

I don't know if I agree with that - without the ability to benefit from Chaplain litanies granting 2+ to charge, you're less than 50% to make a charge even with a re-roll, and with them only moving 4" with no ability to advance and charge, I think you can just kite them around. Not being in combat or having an invuln also makes them vulnerable to high AP weapons. The whole reason they were good in RG was Master of Ambush and SftS, now they're just as unplayable as in every other marine army.

 

The shooty version is maybe marginally playable since they still benefit from an Apothecary and/or Psychic Fortress, but without Gravitic Amplification or the ability to benefit from Captain or Lieutenant re-rolls I don't think their damage output is consistent enough at their points cost. 

 

This is at a competitive level mind you, I'm sure there are home metas where there's not quite so much pressure or the meta somehow facilitates their use.

[Dracos]

I see what Claws is going for and since he sees them as Dead Men Walking Im sure there is some play as a backfield harasser. Drop them close as possible to an Objective and force your opponent to reposition resources or lose their backfield objective. Its not a perfect set up but I bet with the right army build it has play. 

 

In my own army I have been depending on Eliminators to hold my backfield position recently because so few armies have actually tried to threaten them until late game. Usually game is over by then. Mind you Im not all that fond of this but in an All Primaris army they are cheap a unit as I can get. Really gpoing to be looking into possibility of switching to Heavy Intercessors when they come out but thats a whooping 100 points I need to lose in other parts of the army build :(

[Alcyon]

I've been stuck with a unit of Eliminators for this Crusade Campaign and while they haven't successfully killed very much, they certainly are pretty tough in cover with their +1 save. Usually I'm able to contrive to have one objective in the backline on each side of the table and then plant them within range and in cover, sometimes using Concealed Positions if necessary. I think the main issue with them is that you can't place objectives on terrain, and many boards (especially in tournaments) have fixed terrain far from the objectives anyway. In competitive play I will likely switch to Servitors or Company Veteran units for the points savings to do the same role. 

[Dracos]

With the Raven Guard CT they count in cover 18 inches away. Terrain can also hug the Objective close enough a unit can be in it and 2 3/4 inches away from the marker so I haven't had an issue with Objectives. 

 

That said, after Christmas I'm switching back to a Successor list and working in a Heavy Intercessor Squad (or two?) a lot depends on how heavy I want to lean into Eradicators.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I wholeheartedly disagree on Centurions being relegated to the display case.

 

Centurions are the best distraction carnifex Raven Guard have available to them now. 

 

Do you really feel like you have 200 points to throw away on a distraction carnifex in a 9th edition marine list? I know every list I build now feels so tight that every choice has to be a mindful one - either at holding my objectives or removing my opponents ability to do so. Tasking a unit with no invul or other defensive mechanism that also has no mobility to die in my opponents DZ threatening him for a turn seems...hopeful?

[Dracos]

My only problem with them as a Distraction is that they are slow and if an opponent wants to kite them then they likely are going to. I played in a tournament and beat both of RG players I faced who were using Centurions. One with Grav the others Assault. I just rotated my Objective coverage away from them and ate at the softer parts of the army. If I was playing as RG I would bounce them off the board with Eradicators. Who would then get the same treatment but we aren’t talking about 40ks most overhyped unit right now ;)

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm going to try two units of grav and missile cents as ranged support in a list. I don't think the list will do that great because it was pretty heavily 8th edition styled with a ton of scouts, but I'm hoping I can use them as pseudo-infiltrators to just push the midfield and be annoying on objectives. It'll do real bad against things where grav doesn't kick in though.

[XeonDragon]

 

At right around 200 points for 3 Assault Centurions, I'm good with dropping them in my opponent's backline and letting them do their thing without support. The fact that they were so nasty in 8th means people will still consider them a major threat for a while. Use that to your advantage. 

 

Centurions are the best distraction carnifex Raven Guard have available to them now. 

 

I hear where you are coming from. That said, I've found 200 points worth of terminators teleporting in a similar carnifex distractor. With the assault centurions you get 12 toughness 5 wounds with a 2+ save and no invulnerable save. For around the same points you get 5 terminators which gets you 15 toughness 4 wounds with a 2+ save and 5+ invulnerable. Sure, damage output may be less, but with 4x chain fists and a ton of storm bolter shots they can't be ignored either - especially by vehicles. Also, they are a bit of the 'new hotness' right now, so I'd suggest that players will respond to them in a similar way. Relic terminators can ditch the powersword, and hence be more of a melee threat. Then there is fury of the first.

 

No disagreeing with you thesis at all, just noting there are a few units that can perform a genuine carnifax distractor role for RG right now. I'm going to get some centurions cheap on gumtree or ebay soon, and will run them to see how they compare to my terminators. Should be fun! 

Edited December 3, 2020 by XeonDragon

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

I wholeheartedly disagree on Centurions being relegated to the display case.

 

Centurions are the best distraction carnifex Raven Guard have available to them now.

Do you really feel like you have 200 points to throw away on a distraction carnifex in a 9th edition marine list? I know every list I build now feels so tight that every choice has to be a mindful one - either at holding my objectives or removing my opponents ability to do so. Tasking a unit with no invul or other defensive mechanism that also has no mobility to die in my opponents DZ threatening him for a turn seems...hopeful?

Yep.

 

I hardly ever build for competitive play with my Raven Guard anymore. I build them for throwing dice with friends fun games. If I want to be competitive I bring my Deathwatch, who got way better in 9th.

 

So with that in mind I don't really care too much how many points something is. And with flamers being 12" now I can drop them in and ruin something's day. I also often choose linebreaker as one of my Secondaries. 12 T5 wounds with a 2+ save is durable enough to force my opponent to aim bigger guns at them to remove them.

 

So one of 3 things happens:

 

1) They focus fire on them until they're dead, which means they aren't shooting at things that are more important to my strategy.

 

2) They decide to kite them to make sure they can't do any more damage. That means they're avoiding nearly a quarter of the board while I'm scoring Linebreaker points.

 

3) They charge them with something to tie them up. This also takes something out of the fight, and I feel better about firing Overwatch with 6d6 autohit shots than I do most things, now that we have to pay for it.

 

The whole point of a distraction carnifex is that it has to be something threatening enough to force your opponent to account for it, while simultaneously being something you can afford to lose (because you're going to).

[Alcyon]

It'd be a good caveat for most posts/threads if we clarified whether we meant a unit was good/bad in a competitive context or a casual context.

[Claws and Effect]

It'd be a good caveat for most posts/threads if we clarified whether we meant a unit was good/bad in a competitive context or a casual context.

Probably.

 

But I'd probably still bring my Centurions to a competitive game too. Largely because I really hate how cookie cutter competitive lists end up being. Someone figures out what works and everyone starts copying them. I'd rather think for myself and maybe not have the most optimum list than just do what everyone else is doing.

[Alcyon]

My point is, your decision to bring Centurions because you dislike cookie-cutter lists is totally valid, but it doesn't particularly help answer the question of whether Centurions are a winner or loser from the 9th Ed codex. In this scenario you're running them regardless of the fact that they took a major points and rules hit by losing Core, and in spite of the fact that they haven't been seen in tournament play since their nerf at the bottom of 8th. 

 

I play Hellblasters outside UM and a bunch of things that are suboptimal, but I think it's important to keep discussions of how I use those units and their effectiveness separate to some degree from the question of their competitive viability.

[Claws and Effect]

Fair enough.

 

Personally, I feel that taking or dumping a unit based on it's "competitive viability" is a load of grox manure that just shows how unimaginative a lot of players are. Every flavor of the month list started out as someone trying something new.

 

I'd rather figure out how to make the units I like work for me than go "everyone says this unit is trash so I won't use it".

[Alcyon]

Like I said, I totally get the mentality and encourage trying out units that don't see competitive play. I just think that's different than arguing that a unit is competitively viable or comparable to ones that are. Threads like this would be pointless if we argued every unit was viable or on the same level of playability. If anything I think the discussion speaks to GW's competing goals of creating a competitive game while also selling a lot of marine kits - they can't make every unit on the same level so you can pick whatever you want.

[XeonDragon]

Speaking of trying out units, I am toying with the idea of running company veterans. I was thinking squad of 5, a couple with storm shield and combi-meltas, the rest with combi-weapons of some form + tasty melee weapons, maybe one with a heavy weapon . I was leaning towards combi-meltas to open up possibility of move - advance - shoot - charge. I had also thought about making one of the storm shield wielding ones carry a heavy weapons (which from the wording of the data sheet seems possible!)  - maybe a grav-cannon and amp + storm shield! :D

 

I've loved how Terminators shoot a bit, then go nuts in melee, so was thinking that company veterans - now that they have two wounds - whilst not as tanky, can shoot better thanks to access to better ranged weapons, and hit just as hard in melee. 

 

Anyone run them in a similar manner, and if so, how did you find them? 

Edited December 6, 2020 by XeonDragon

[Dracos]

I think the White Scar list used company vets in 2 or 3 man unit as action monkeys

[Jaipii]

Speaking of trying out units, I am toying with the idea of running company veterans. I was thinking squad of 5, a couple with storm shield and combi-meltas, the rest with combi-weapons of some form + tasty melee weapons, maybe one with a heavy weapon . I was leaning towards combi-meltas to open up possibility of move - advance - shoot - charge. I had also thought about making one of the storm shield wielding ones carry a heavy weapons (which from the wording of the data sheet seems possible!) - maybe a grav-cannon and amp + storm shield! :D

 

I've loved how Terminators shoot a bit, then go nuts in melee, so was thinking that company veterans - now that they have two wounds - whilst not as tanky, can shoot better thanks to access to better ranged weapons, and hit just as hard in melee.

 

Anyone run them in a similar manner, and if so, how did you find them?

Master of Ambush a squad of the Company Veterans with Grav Cannons and Stormshields maybe? :) Along with a buffing HQ/Apothecary. The veterans provide some extra protection for the character in addition to the damage.

[ShinyRhino]

 

Speaking of trying out units, I am toying with the idea of running company veterans. I was thinking squad of 5, a couple with storm shield and combi-meltas, the rest with combi-weapons of some form + tasty melee weapons, maybe one with a heavy weapon . I was leaning towards combi-meltas to open up possibility of move - advance - shoot - charge. I had also thought about making one of the storm shield wielding ones carry a heavy weapons (which from the wording of the data sheet seems possible!) - maybe a grav-cannon and amp + storm shield! :D

 

I've loved how Terminators shoot a bit, then go nuts in melee, so was thinking that company veterans - now that they have two wounds - whilst not as tanky, can shoot better thanks to access to better ranged weapons, and hit just as hard in melee.

 

Anyone run them in a similar manner, and if so, how did you find them?

Master of Ambush a squad of the Company Veterans with Grav Cannons and Stormshields maybe? :) Along with a buffing HQ/Apothecary. The veterans provide some extra protection for the character in addition to the damage.

You can only get a single Grav Cannon in a Company Vets squad. They could all get Grav Guns though.