Postmortem on New Codex Games

[Prot]

So I thought my first foray with the new codex would be my Ultra's instead of the White Scars, just since I got all my stuff back and it would be fun to field a ton of units of choice.

 

The thing I quickly re-discovered and confirmed is a lot of the stuff I liked (Repulsor wise) really isn't something I'll take soon. 

 

After two games, both of which I won, the 5++ Impulsor save just feels miles different than the 4++. I know it isn't, but it feels like it, especially when you are considering that CP re-roll for keeping it alive.

 

Further the Repulsor just dies extremely fast to today's high damage range armies. Sure, there would be matchups where you can have this thing do some respectable tanking and transporting, but if you play in an environment like mine, there are no predetermined match ups. The Tau super RIptide relic gun rips this thing apart with no sweat. I don't think it should be that easy, but the fact is a lot of armies have this ability now: Astra, AdMech, Tau, etc.

 

Finally, I wanted to try a slightly different list the second game (which would be against 'crons) and I really wanted to try putting my 2 Executioners in the list, but after game 1, and the nerfs to the chassis/gun it really seems to be a dead unit unless GW revisits it in an update... (Perhaps after they exhaust Gladiator sales?)

 

Anyway my second list was fuller with troops (as a result of no Repulsor). It was much closer to my old school UM lists. I had mentioned previously that I would go back to Aggressors, but use the flamer variants, and I did.

 

The result of that was a very strong mid board showing. The Flame aggressors are nasty to assault now at 12". With Calgar/LT/Tiggy marching up with them, it is a mess to deal with.

 

This, to me, is both good and bad. I mean it works, but it is a bit boring for me as this was a strong choice through most of 8th as well. But if you want to play Calgar, there's a good chance you will be on foot with Aggressors. The good thing about the flamers I confirmed is it 'frees up' Calgar's Chapter Master selection to another nearby unit since the Flamer Aggressors are already auto hitting.

 

I did end up losing every one of the Aggressors, even with the auto include upgraded Apothecary. Trust me, if you aren't taking this model you are just making things more difficult on yourself. (I healed, and revived 3 Aggressors this game). Ironically my opponent revived 3 Destroyers in the exchange.

 

The Ultra's ended up with a strong victory. (In part because my opponent chose poor secondaries though to be fair.) The Primary was my focal point with UM's as usual, and he never got more than 5pts per primary round as a result.

 

My aggressiveness did cost me the Aggressors though. I had to push hard at center but it allowed my flanks to badly outshoot his troops, and specialty units. Eradicators were gold, and the plan worked.

 

The big moment was mid board, my HQ's block and Aggressors are out there behind some crates. The really annoying Wraiths... warped through the crates and started wacking my guys. It was a 5-6 man squad of Wraiths. I had to go Null Zone in a calculated risk (I had HQ's and Victrix Guard around). But that allowed the Aggressors to back out, and without penalty to flamers, shoot up the Wraiths badly which were finished by 10 Bolt Rifle Intercessors.

 

But then those Skorpek Destroyers... wow are they nasty, just blew through the Aggressors without a sweat. (But at this point it was too late, as I just killed his destroyers which are perfect for killing Aggressors.)

 

I had lost most my elite units, but had quite a few Intercessors left. One unit that felt great during this battle was my Redemptor. S6, lots of shots, -1 damage, it all adds up to make him feel a lot better. Not OP mind you, but solid.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

So the good news is our old stand bys appear to be solid. The bad news (For me) is I'm bored of Aggressors, but this style of list certainly works. I think UM are going to be solid as a mass of troops, and lots of ObSec empowered by character support. 

[space wolf]

Still figuring out what to play and buy, I greatly appreciate this post

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What is your army list Prot ?

[Prot]

Today it was:

 

Calgar,

Tiggy,

Indomitus LT.

 

25 Intercessors

5 Assault Intercessors 

 

3 Outriders

 

5 flamer Aggressors

Apothecary upgrade

 

Impulsor (w/rockets)

 

Eradicators x 3 (I just don't find need for more.)

 

Invictor guard

 

Redemptor

Warsuit.

 

I think that's it.

 

So how did your tournament go? What was your list like?

Edited October 14, 2020 by Prot

[Captain Idaho]

Great thread to discuss things.

 

I found, like you, lots of infantry on the board makes Ultramarines fairly strong. 2 wounds apiece is hard to chew through.

 

One thing I found very useful (and noticed my opponent take advantage of with the new rules for his Space Wolves) was a lots of D2 weapons to cull the Marines is laughable against Dreadnoughts. If you're taking lots of infantry I can't recommend enough accompanying them with Dreadnoughts.

 

Cheaper vehicles works better for Marines now, I feel. Those Predators, Stalkers (check out their rules now, they are consistent against ground targets now and fiendish against Aircraft!) and Razorbacks leap out at me as effective and if you have a few Dreadnoughts running up the table, the opponent's target prioritisation will be difficult.

 

Nice wins there. Defeating Tau with footsloggers is no mean feat.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hi Prot I’m really digging your list ! It is something I would definitely enjoy and plays to our strengths.

 

I ended up winning the tournament taking out Custodes then Harlies the last two rounds. I will post my list next week... I have another tourney this weekend and want to keep my tech top secret. One thing I see looking at your list is it feels like we are both influenced by infantry heavy IH army lists. Heavy Intercessors can’t get here soon enough !

[Prot]

Nice job!  I understand the need for secrecy.  Taking out Harlequins (which I think are top tier right now) and Custodes (amazing army fir Primaries) is no small feat. Great to here. 
 

Yes I am all about heavy infantry so far with this codex. Like you say Heavy Intercessors can’t get here soon enough. 
 

oddly enough I do see a great role for first born too, I just don’t own many. 
 

Honestly I could easily remove the impulsor and perhaps the Warsuit. 
 

infirgot it add I had 5 Assault Intercessors.  Maybe they are better in other marine armies but it’s hard to deny their strengths even in ultramarines armies. Previously I was using 10. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I still actually love firstborn. My Iron Hands army has several units I all highly rate. Relic terminators although losing a point for the invulnerable save have a lot more options as a whole and are premiere imo for being an elite unit that can shoot and chop well.

 

Veteran Intercessors seem so redundant with assault Intercessors - they are a disappointment for me personally.

 

Is crazy how many stellar troop choices we have now !

 

My main tactic versus Harlequins is let them get stuck in, overextend, fall back and shoot them with everything I can muster. We have the tools to best them. They are quite scary and tbh I’m happy for them. We both love the golden boys so we know how to counter their tricks. ;)

[Kervin40k]

Thank you Prot for the info, it was illuminating not just for me a UM player but a Necron player as well.  I am really wanting to try a gravis heavy list once the heavy intercessors come out, but I was wondering what to add to it, now I know to add dreads.  

[Prot]

So I had a crazy game.

I was shocked by Nids. He took 3 Toughness 8 very shooty models that all had multi wound shots from spinebanks, and cannons, with one having a flamer that can roast primaris. Those double shooting Hive Guard are always gross, and all of it rerolled 1's if it didn't move.

The other half of his army was Behemoth (I believe). It allowed him to move, advance, assault. The only thing I'm unsure of because this changed for other armies is he was doing a Move + Advance, Move again (through some Nid ability) and Advance again. This mean since we were playing Dawn of War (Scorched Earth), I couldn't believe how packed the table was. Even if it was illegal to double Advance, he still had the table owned.

So that assault half of the list was lead by a Swarmlord (his warlord). And a Genestealers with characters, and gaunts.

Essentially with Seal of Oath I targeted the swarmlord.

Anyway, he had a decent amount of psykers, it was a very good list. Even shooty warrior brood, and I honestly realized I was severely out shot in this game with his 3 T8 shooty models, and all of the other stuff. Including his ability to shoot twice with the large Hive Guard squad which is capable of indirect, and we had a lot of terrain (which is normal for us.)

On with the game.

- Nid's go first. I'm immediately caught on my back foot. I'm trying "new" units and some of them instantly turn me off. Granted this isn't the most extreme I could make my list, but I wanted to play a shooty fire base with assault capabilities.

- I'm up to my armpits in Nids table wide. Although one 20 man squad is just gaunts, it now has my Infiltrators pinned. Beside my Infiltrators I had put my new Firestrike Turret. He only had line of sight with one of his T8 shooty-fex's at my turret and easily took it out without needing to fire all his shots. (new model syndrome.)

- A side note on the Turrent. Honestly I had to force myself to use it. It's way over costed, and poorly designed. Since it's artillery I believe it's still stuck deploying on ground floor (correct me if I'm wrong.) That means it had horrible line of sight options and can only move 3" a turn. I took the Autocannon variant because the lastalons are only 24" and add a whooping 40 points to the already expensive unit. I had so much trouble even deploying the thing, I doubt I'll ever use it again without an adjustment (no core rule either. and VERY easy points for Bring it Down for your opponent.)

- Anyway, he (unfortunately) took Bring it Down, for a secondary and got the Firestrike as mentioned and those would be his only 2 points for BiD. (I had no other vehicles... weird.)

- The far right sees my 10 man intercessor squad smacked hard with a blob of genestealers being pushed up by characters, including Swarmlord.

- The shooting ends, and he's set up the above assault. His shooting was incredible. I lost 2 Aggressors (even with Tiggies -1 to hit), some Infiltrators, and and a Bladeguard! My Ancient Standard of Macragge failed to allow any of the aggressors to stand and shoot on death... oh well... assault time!!!

- Luckily I denied ONE power which was a plus 1 to wound on his Genestealers. But I braced for impact so I could add 1 to overwatch with 10 Intercessors.... AND I added 2 more squads for 2CP which would be my squad of 2 ATV Multimeltas, and my Aggressors were just out so I added my 3 Suppressors. I killed 2 bloody Genestealers. Was that worth 3 CP? Doubtful.

- His dudes had some extra rending hits, all said I lost.. 7 of the 10! 15 wounds. That was really painful.. the whole turn was incredibly painful.

- I retaliate but can't move out, swarmlord is making a move, but I don't dare give him the charge with all that stuff and moreso I can't expose my army in the middle table because his firepower (as shown in T1) is far, far superior to mine.

- I get off Psychic Fortress, and then try to push back against the remaining Genestealers... ouch that's all I could do. I brought an Aggressor back from dead so I had 5 back on the table.

++++++++++++++++++++++

I'll fast forward here.... I am getting hammered on Primary. He's scored 15+15 for turns 2-3, I scored 5+5 for primaries for turns 2-3. So I know I have to do something pretty spectacular. The left side of the board is a total loss. I don't have the body count. I am losing my home objective to 20 gaunts that can't be broken cause Synapse. My Infiltrators are trying, retreating from CC, and shooting at -1 but there are just too many of them... truly a Starship Troopers moment.

So I figure my biggest issue with 'turning the corner' around a big obscurring building is on the other side a few units are waiting for me... Swarmlord. I take a chance, I throw out both ATV's with MM's, and I had my Eradicators come in on the board edge BEHIND the Swarmlord so he was now surrounded by Melta on all sides... or was I surrounded by bugs on all sides? Anyway... It takes all of that firepower, down to the last shot to actually get past the 4++ save and kill his Swarmlord. That was a risk I had to take to push back but I have to contend with a mid board problem:

I barely have range on a few aura's with the Aggressors/Assault Intercessors.

- I hit that T8 model hard as heck... but it still lives with 4 wounds remaining. What I did not plan on... is it living, THEN FLAMING ME 4 TIMES in close combat!!! So I lose all but 1 aggressor, even though I brought another back.

- He just looked at my Eradicators, and they were... eradicated (there goes my ability to score Engage on all fronts). I have almost no models left now except my core of characters, which my opponent found quite humorous. He just fired at one ATV poking around a corner and it was totally overwhelmed... For a side note I never brought an ATV back with the upgraded Apothecary. I did heal the ATV, but did not bring one back. (In my last turn I brought back an Assault Intercessor)

- This bold move up center does work though... At the end of his turn I go first in close combat since I charged last turn. This is huge, but I still barley kill that T8 beast! AND there is 2 more still!

- I couldn't believe how tough this army was, and I was really getting hammered. I sprinkle shots from Suppressors, and widdle down gaunts, just trying to get them off an objective, I just don't have the firepower.

- So I'm badly out gunned still, and have almost no table presence. This is big move number 2 to try to salvage this game.

- So above is the big play I had manufactured to have some way of getting in his zone and doing something miraculous? (Stupid perhaps?) The above picture and following description of events is from the bottom of my turn 4+5.

- The shot is from the Tyranid side of the table. On the left is my bank of characters, barely able to keep the heat off them thanks to Victrix Guard. My last ATV MUST have a Hail Mary shot at the Shooty-Fex. As you can see it has 8 wounds..... Doing the math with the MM in half range, this means you know I need to roll a 6 with one dice on the damage roll and add 2 for being a multimelta in half range. Crazy right?

Well I hit only once, wound once, and roll... a 2. I use my last CP, roll a 6 +2 = dead shootyfex. Insane. But that gets me 3 points for Bring It Down, and 1 Point for Oath of Moment!

- Part 2 of my crazy scheme... I brought back my one Assault Intercessor so I have a smallish squad with a fist. So I have no CP left. And we figure I need a 9" charge to make it to the 3 Shooty warriors on the ruins which also houses the 6 man double shooting Hive Guard squad.

I roll a 10, this not only gets me engaged, but I activate 3" into the double shooty hive guard squad to shut them down for his Turn 5. Crazy.

His turn 5 he is a bit miffed... he saved 2 CP to double shoot his 6 Hive Guard which are locked in CC. His last Shooty-Fex just easily destroys my last ATV, and we continue CC in the ruins.

I end up trying to save my Suppressor and advance them to mid table for a final 2 points for Oath of Moment.

I have nothing important to do in my turn, and we add it up: Ultra's win 65 to 60.

I will say there's no way I should have won that game. In fact not only did I have two miracle moments, but I could not figure out how I beat him until we looked at the secondary break down and it was his taking of Bring It Down that really, really hurt him. (He only had 2 points he could earn from it.)

From my perspective, I didn't like being -that- outshot. The Firestrike is gone. The ATV's are okay, but absolutely inferior to Attack bikes in squads. I found the ATV's not having Core really sucked. 2 shot guns on an 85 point vehicle would have really done better even with reroll 1's.

I have to rethink my 'assault' Ultra's a bit. Bladeguard were taken down too easily. If it weren't for the Apothecary I would have lost all my Aggressors as well by Turn 2. We recalled I brought 4 Aggressors back from the dead, totaling 9 Aggressors for the game.

The cluster of characters felt necessary, but boy is that awkward. I still find Calgar a bit frustrating. Having that many characters in a cluster means you have to take Victrix which just adds to the cluster. I'm not a big fan of wielding this giant cluster, and was shocked at being pushed back for 2 turns and pinned down.

All in all I shouldn't have won that game, but it was a nail biter. I literally thought I had no chance by bottom of 2.

[mel_danes]

Thanks for the report Prot. Sounds like an incredible game, hard fought and well earned "miracle" victory.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Great report, well played and stunning win sir !

 

You win the Internets today !

[Kyoujin]

Onslaught is the Tyranid psychic power that allows for a charge after advancing.  Metabolic Overdrive is a 1CP Tyranid strategem that allows a second move.  Though if you advance with the second move you have to roll a dice for each model and on a '1' a mortal wound is taken.  As long as he made those rolls it all looks legit. 

 

Also, neither of these require a specific Hive Fleet so if he was rerolling charges, it was Behemoth. and if he was rolling three/pick the best for advances, it was Kraken.  Either way it's pretty good combination he had going.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Kyoujin

[Prot]

Onslaught is the Tyranid psychic power that allows for a charge after advancing.  Metabolic Overdrive is a 1CP Tyranid strategem that allows a second move.  Though if you advance with the second move you have to roll a dice for each model and on a '1' a mortal wound is taken.  As long as he made those rolls it all looks legit. 

 

Also, neither of these require a specific Hive Fleet so if he was rerolling charges, it was Behemoth. and if he was rolling three/pick the best for advances, it was Kraken.  Either way it's pretty good combination he had going.

 

Thanks very much for the clarification. I had just wondered about advancing after each move since they shut that down with "Warp Time" from chaos. (IE: you can only advance once per turn.)

 

He never did make those rolls for seeing if Metabolic Override would potentially kill any models. I don't think it would have made much of a difference.

 

The list hit like a truck and caught me off guard. It assaults extremely hard, and fast, and while I am used to seeing that, I did not anticipate him out shooting me so convincingly. Excellent list. It had everything, and a large majority of the shots could take down Primaris easily. He also had a strat for one of the Shooty Fex's that made its wound rolls do auto 3 Damage. 

 

My Aggressors were cringing at that! 

[Kallas]

 

Onslaught is the Tyranid psychic power that allows for a charge after advancing.  Metabolic Overdrive is a 1CP Tyranid strategem that allows a second move.  Though if you advance with the second move you have to roll a dice for each model and on a '1' a mortal wound is taken.  As long as he made those rolls it all looks legit. 

 

Also, neither of these require a specific Hive Fleet so if he was rerolling charges, it was Behemoth. and if he was rolling three/pick the best for advances, it was Kraken.  Either way it's pretty good combination he had going.

 

Thanks very much for the clarification. I had just wondered about advancing after each move since they shut that down with "Warp Time" from chaos. (IE: you can only advance once per turn.)

 

He never did make those rolls for seeing if Metabolic Override would potentially kill any models. I don't think it would have made much of a difference.

 

Just to add some more clarification:

1. Units don't advance more than once per phase (or, at least, that was the verdict in 8th). You would roll once, the first time a unit advanced; but from then on during that phase, their modified movement was how far they would move. So, for example, a unit of Genestealers advance 8"+d6": they roll 4, so now they move 12". They use Metabolic Overdrive to move a second time (in the movement phase specifically) then they would move 12" again, no roll.
2. It sounds more like the Swarmlord's Hive Commander ability to move a unit in the Shooting phase instead of shooting, rather than Metabolic Overdrive. This has two main differences: (1) it doesn't happen in the Movement phase, so they would roll for their advance roll again and; (2) does not have the "roll for every model, and 6s cause a mortal wound" effect.

[Prot]

Okay... so now I’m confused because u think you’re right Kalias, he moved a second time in lieu of shooting. So I understand in 9th edition, it is legal to make a move and advance twice in the same phase?

 

again I want to be clear I don’t think it would have made a difference in our game. 

[Kallas]

Okay... so now I’m confused because u think you’re right Kalias, he moved a second time in lieu of shooting. So I understand in 9th edition, it is legal to make a move and advance twice in the same phase?

 

again I want to be clear I don’t think it would have made a difference in our game. 

 

I haven't checked much for 9th, because I simply haven't had much drive to play (y'know, pandemic...) so haven't spent much time checking 9th Ed rules.

 

In 8th Edition, it was clarified that you didn't roll twice, but you could have a unit advance twice in the same phase (eg, Metabolic Overdrive). So yes, a unit could move (Mv+d6)*2 if they were given the capability to move twice in the same phase.

 

Before the clarification, it was (Mv+d6)+(Mv+d6).

 

As the situation, in this case, is the Swarmlord's ability, that does take place in a separate phase so would be exempt from that ruling anyway, unless the 9th Ed core rules talk about Advancing more than once per turn.

 

----------

 

For some further discussion on this, from the Core Rules PDF:

"ADVANCE

When a unit makes an Advance, make an Advance roll for the unit by rolling one D6. Add the result in inches to the Move (M) characteristic of each model in that unit until the end of the current phase. Each model in that unit can then move a distance in inches equal to or less than this total, but no model can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models. A unit cannot shoot or declare a charge in the same turn that it made an Advance."

 

From the Tyranids FAQ:

Q: Can a unit ever Advance twice in a single phase?

A: No.

 

Q: If a unit has Advanced in a phase, and is given the opportunity to move again in the same phase, what is their Move characteristic?

A: Their Move characteristic for the second move would still be the value as modified from the Advance. For example, if a unit with a Move characteristic of 5" Advances in a Movement phase, and the result of the dice rolled for the Advance is 4, its Move characteristic would be modified for that phase to 9". As such, if it was given the opportunity to move again in that phase, its Move characteristic would still be 9".

 

So, you are correct that a unit cannot Advance twice in a phase, but the actual act of Advancing modifies a unit's Movement characteristic for the duration of that phase.

 

The example I used before of Genestealers:

Mv8", they advance and roll 4, so they are now Mv12". If they use Metabolic Overdrive to move again, they cannot Advance, but their Movement has already been modified for this phase up to Mv12", so they would move a total of 24".

 

If the Swarmlord then uses their Hive Commander ability to move them in the Shooting phase, they would roll again, as this is a different phase: so they'd move 24" (in this example) in the movement phase and then Mv8"+d6" again in the Shooting phase.

[Prot]

I find GW's take on it confusing... you can't advance twice in a phase, yet can take advantage of the -benefit- of advancing... twice per phase. 

 

But I don't want to derail the thread too much with this. Thanks for doing so much digging on this. That's some great info.

 

Nid's still gave me a surprisingly strong battle, and I'm sure once they get their book, they will be quite the handful!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I feel like I understand how their movement works now.

[leth]

I feel like the ATVs as units of 3 are a trap. Especially since you don’t want a fast unit like that slowed down by trying to stick around the apothecary. 
 

Any specific reason they didn’t feel useful or good? I think in most situations attack bikes are better, especially because core, but as an independent unit I feel like it can go off on its own and cause some havoc. 
 

Great Hail Mary plays against the tyranids, from what I have been hearing they are really strong right now. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This sounds like a solid Nidz list and well played but overall the codex is wanting and needs an overhaul.

[Prot]

I feel like the ATVs as units of 3 are a trap. Especially since you don’t want a fast unit like that slowed down by trying to stick around the apothecary. 

 

Any specific reason they didn’t feel useful or good? I think in most situations attack bikes are better, especially because core, but as an independent unit I feel like it can go off on its own and cause some havoc. 

 

Great Hail Mary plays against the tyranids, from what I have been hearing they are really strong right now. 

 

Well I wouldn't call them a strong unit considering our current choices. I don't think three models is a trap, in fact for efficiency (IE: Using strats, gaining aura's) 3 is what I'd recommend. But I only own 2. The thing is the Chassis is so big, you can easily stay partially in an Aura while still having very respectable reach.

 

The problem is for the points, and the lack of core keyword, they just aren't worth it. First Born attack bikes are more mobile (fit through ruins,etc), can be embedded in a bike squad and thus un-targetable, making the unit far more efficient. Both forms of attack bikes have the same Multi-melta mounted on it. One costs more than the other, and can't reroll hits, and can be targeted out easily... it's really that simple. (I'm not being facetious.) 

 

The unit felt like most new units... under powered. I still stand by my test results (I don't really theory hammer as I have the ability to get in multiple games a week)... I still am experiencing that old units are better (up until Indomitus). Anything Post-Indomitus has felt very underwhelming. 

 

Until GW tweaks them, I'm not seeing the ATV as a competitive unit. Either GW gives them something, or nerfs Attack Bikes, and/or Eradicators, and/or MM Dev squads.

[_Valten_]

Great write up Prot - it's good to read how the new codex is working; especially as I can't get any games in at the moment (damned pandemic!).

 

Quick question - how much anti-tank are you fielding?  Do you feel that troop heavy is a good way to go over our expensive (Primaris) anti tank chassis?

[Prot]

Great write up Prot - it's good to read how the new codex is working; especially as I can't get any games in at the moment (damned pandemic!).

 

Quick question - how much anti-tank are you fielding?  Do you feel that troop heavy is a good way to go over our expensive (Primaris) anti tank chassis?

 

Honestly, there's no need to use any of the tanks in my experience. They have a lot going against them now. No Core, healing is lethargic via Techmarine, poor strat support. GW has really pushed Primaris chassis into a bad position with layers of nerfs and cost hikes. (I believe to sell more Gladiators)

 

 

Strategic reserving a simple 3 man Eradicator squad is far more reliable than the over priced, clunky Repulsor Executioner (for example). Most tables have lots of terrain, the giant foot print, need of line of sight, poor aura support, etc... plus damage is going through the roof. A big tank just doesn't last anymore without some extraneous damage mitigation system.

 

Eradicators, attack bikes, Plasma-ceptors, Dev squads.... all far superior in my playtesting experience. 

 

Keep in mind I'm not theory hammering this. I've used all the above,  and including but not limited to:

+ ATV's (not a big fan, but fun unit)

+ Repulsor Executioner (forget the ridiculous cost, the nerfs to the gun/aura's alone make this nearly unplayable except in funsy games.)

+ Repulsors (Moved to heavy support which is a stealth nerf) ( Much better with White Scars where you can flank it/not lose it on T1.)

+ Firestrike Turret. ( Just a horrid unit. Might have worked in 8th edition, but probably my top pick for worst new unit in 9th edition... aside from the bunker).

 

Then there's plain old assault. White Scars really excel at this, but even Ultra's with Aggressors (D2 flat fists) and Outriders, etc.... you can lock up vehicles with large chassis a lot easier than most people realize. I've done this for dozens of games with White Scars. I've locked down Astra armies in T2 (no joke).

 

So this is another route to board control, and shutting down tanks without firing a shot at them. (Only Tau have a reasonable defence for this.)

 

Unfortunately I put most of the post Indomitus units in the "don't use in a competitive environment" category. I've said this dozens of times by now: a marine player can go to his 8 year old bin of old marine stuff, and field a perfectly fine army today. 

 

Just my opinion but GW has to make remarkable changes to the newest Primaris units to make them fieldable in a non-narrative setting. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A lot of great advice !