Possible changes in the new codex.

[Azekai]

For many editions DG had a strong and reliable 4+ fnp. It was their defining trait. Other Nurgle stuff could have T5, but that 4+ FnP is what made them a nightmare to kill. Then that got nerfed to a 5+. Then T5 got nerfed with how wounding works in 8th-9th.

 

Now the roll just gone altogether and T5 is bad. Even if we have strong choices in the dex or bonkers strategems, it won’t feel like Death Guard. The chance of shrugging off insane firepower is gone. Now it’s just a calculated thing, bereft of excitement or interesting possibilities.

 

Not gonna be buying this dex and I will probably just keep on playing oldhammer.

[TrawlingCleaner]

As with all previews, there's a lot of missing context. When we've seen most/all of the rules and strats it'll be good to see where that leaves us, I imagine it'll be in much much better spot (difficult to make the new DG worse than the old DG book which was the oldest 8th book still technically legal).

 

I'm most interested in what the Contagion abilities will do, will they be like Power from pain and increase? Will it be like Canticles? Or something entirely different

[Iron Sage]

Horrifying nerf, I am incredibly disappointed. Absolutely atrocious. This rule does not even protect at all against damage 1 weapons.

I was so positive, everything looked so exciting, but this is soul crushing.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I actually like this sidegrade because it reduces rolling. Also opens up design space as said earlier.....and it applies to all of our vehicles it appears. I wonder if Helbrutes will already get something similar like dreads and be looking at -2D? Probably not, since GW highlights the Helbrute's aggressiveness and disposability rather than durability and any sort of revered station, so maybe another bonus.

We'll see how relics, Warlord Traits, Plague Company abilities, and the different disease mechanics affect DR.

Plague Surgeons are obviously changing since there's no roll anymore, maybe a shrug like Loyalist Apothecaries as mentioned earlier. We also have Blightbringers and Tallymen to consider. Maybe the bell will always give a 5++ now?

And Tallymen.....maybe they'll get prayers like all of the other Astartes PRIEST models have? I'd like to see that, plus the ability to either take Phosphex Bombs or grant a new SM-style Orbital Bombardment effect, given that they are keepers of the Legion's WMD's.

Depending on Plague Company and new disease mechanics, we might get something like the Gloaming Bloat spreading to all infantry in the appropriate company, suddenly giving them a rough equivalent of Transhuman. Not sure. Remains to be seen.

All in all, as someone with game design experience, I like the simplicity and the open space for more tools and synergies.

[Iron Sage]

Arguably. The meta is shifting towards D2 and D3 weapons.

 

This rule is strictly better against those.

Edited to whatever.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Iron Sage

[Plaguecaster]

Losing it is pretty annoying especially in regards to Mortal wounds and the like

Also it just won't be the same feeling not rolling DR saves anymore as there were always interesting moments when you were blessed by Nurgle and rolled all your DR saves to be completely unscathed

[WickedJester1013]

Or the times papa nurgle is mad at you and you fail an atrocious amount of DR saves lol

[Cleon]

 

If the Poxwalkers keep a even 6+ feel no pain and get the DR, only needing to make one 6 against a damage 2 weapon instead of two 5+ is a fair trade.

Huh? If they stay 1 wound, that does absolutely nothing. Doesn't matter if they make a 6 against a D2 weapon when they die either way.......

 

Not with new DR. the D2 becomes 1, so only a single save is needed. 

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

If the Poxwalkers keep a even 6+ feel no pain and get the DR, only needing to make one 6 against a damage 2 weapon instead of two 5+ is a fair trade.

Huh? If they stay 1 wound, that does absolutely nothing. Doesn't matter if they make a 6 against a D2 weapon when they die either way.......

 

Not with new DR. the D2 becomes 1, so only a single save is needed. 

 

The chance of rolling a single 6 is barely better than rolling 2 5's, and against D1 shots it goes without saying that a 6+++ is vastly inferior to a 5+++. Not sure how Poxwalkers having an insignificantly increased resilience to D2 and significantly decreased resilience to D1 is a "fair trade"

 

edit: apologies for getting the original post wrong though

Edited December 10, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[happyslugger]

Ah well I need to catch up on my painting backlog.  Might sit 9th out, or just keep playing with my harlequins and custodes.

[Iron Sage]

Terribly disappointed with Feel No pain change, but I see no reason why we should not wait for the codex, digest it fully, before deciding if our army is overall crap or not. I would advocate some patience still.

Some of the other changes are quite good after all, although Feel No Pain is thematic and so very important (and thus disappointing).

Edited December 10, 2020 by Iron Sage

[Azekai]

Tinfoil hat time: GW already sold piles of plague marines and poxwalkers, and now they don't mind so much if the Nurgle footslogers are hot crap. However other units, like blight haulers/defilers, will be undercosted and 'priced to move.' Which willl suck, because we will be in the same spot as the rest of the CSM faction, where we have some strong choices but it feels really really bad to actually take what should be our most common and dependable infantry choice. 

[Karhedron]

Horrifying nerf, I am incredibly disappointed. Absolutely atrocious. This rule does not even protect at all against damage 1 weapons.

I was so positive, everything looked so exciting, but this is soul crushing.

You are looking at it in isolation though. This change to DR goes hand-in-hand with the +1W across the line. Sure DR provides no protection against 1D weapons but DG Troops just got literally twice as hard to kill with those guns. Previously a failed save to a 1D weapon could kill a plague Marine if they failed their DR. Now it will take twice as many failed saves to take them down.

 

9th edition DG infantry are actually tougher than 8th ed because it now take 2 failed saves to take one down whereas previously it was about 1.5 on average. Overcharged plasma is now basically wasted on DG too whereas before you have to pass both DR saves to survive.

 

If you look at the DR change in isolation, it looks disappointing. If you look at how DG will actually play now, they will actually be tougher against most weapons than in last edition. Just look at the big picture.

[Iron Sage]

Tinfoil hat time: GW already sold piles of plague marines and poxwalkers, and now they don't mind so much if the Nurgle footslogers are hot crap. However other units, like blight haulers/defilers, will be undercosted and 'priced to move.' Which willl suck, because we will be in the same spot as the rest of the CSM faction, where we have some strong choices but it feels really really bad to actually take what should be our most common and dependable infantry choice. 

I know you said tinfoil, but Myphitic Blight Hauler has been maybe the cheapest steal (not that cheap, but comparatively) when it comes to bang for the buck, so I don't think that tinfoil works even in theory. Also, Plaguemarines is a nice relatively expensive pack, they do want to sell that to both existing and new players I can guarantee you.

 

Also, despite the Feel No Pain nerf that I really hate, it is too early to judge the worth of Plague Marines. We don't know anything about stratagems or point cost.

[Marshal Loss]

The problem is that the goal posts are moving while we're trying to keep track of the score. Our increased resilience to 1D weapons has absolutely nothing to do with the new DR rule, it's something applied to marines of all shapes and sizes. We all knew it was coming. The new DR is better against D2 which is all the rage at the moment thanks to Girlyman's fleshcrafted puppets, but that is still heavily meta dependent - and the meta can and will inevitably change, and as always remains contextual based on individual circumstance. Against all other damage variables, it is strictly worse. Much more reliable, but worse. Individual mileage will vary, and so it is perfectly reasonable to be dissatisfied with with what they've done to the rule.

 

Thematically, it makes no sense at all. I play DG primarily because I love the lore, and so that's my gripe. But it's just something I'm going to have to live with, and what looks terrible today could look fantastic tomorrow. We might get FnP saves from other sources, our units may be priced to move, who knows!

 

That being said, the truth remains that the change to DR is a net negative. Is our army better or worse for it? All we can do is wait and see, too many variables and unknowns to render a verdict yet. I remain cautiously optimistic based on everything else we've seen so far. Looking forward to tomorrow's preview.

[Iron Sage]

 

Horrifying nerf, I am incredibly disappointed. Absolutely atrocious. This rule does not even protect at all against damage 1 weapons.

I was so positive, everything looked so exciting, but this is soul crushing.

You are looking at it in isolation though. This change to DR goes hand-in-hand with the +1W across the line. Sure DR provides no protection against 1D weapons but DG Troops just got literally twice as hard to kill with those guns. Previously a failed save to a 1D weapon could kill a plague Marine if they failed their DR. Now it will take twice as many failed saves to take them down.

 

9th edition DG infantry are actually tougher than 8th ed because it now take 2 failed saves to take one down whereas previously it was about 1.5 on average. Overcharged plasma is now basically wasted on DG too whereas before you have to pass both DR saves to survive.

 

If you look at the DR change in isolation, it looks disappointing. If you look at how DG will actually play now, they will actually be tougher against most weapons than in last edition. Just look at the big picture.

 

 

Never the less, I don't like it, think it is a nerf, and I view it to be anti thematic that it doesn't protect against the weaker armaments. Lore-wise, Plague Marines should have the chance to shrug off damage like that in my opinion, while it is harder to justify that they can shrug off anti tank type weaponry. I respect your opinion though.

But right now I am very dejected over what I view to be our most thematic rule, maybe I will feel different when the codex is released and digested. Quite possibly. But not right now.

I also happen to think that our guys being W 2 is irrelevant, since all marines are W 2, not just DG.

[Bulwyf]

Not happy with this nerf. Infinitly worse for 1D and mortal wounds, better for 2D, statistically the same for 3D, and worse for all damage over 3. Boooooooo.

 

Same. This is a complete nerf. The only thing this helps against is 2D weapons. Who the **** cares about that? Losing 5++ is a gigantic nerf. If you thought Mortarion was easy to kill before...wow. 

 

The non DG players that were so scared of T5 2 wound marines got their wish. All of our units are now much less resilient and Iron Hands are now even more better and resilient than Death Guard.

 

I'll let that sink in for a bit. 

[Kallas]

T5 is the increased resilience against small arms fire. The new DR is going to be way easier to balance, and honestly the old DR was horrible to play against. All FNP effects are, but army-wide 5+++ made each game vs DG a chore.

 

DG are clearly getting other things, such as Remorseless (which is ATSKNF, but you also get other stuff), an improved inexorable Advance (the 'Chapter Tactic') and the Deadly Pathogens, it's extremely over the top to say that DG are going to be bottom tier. Different to before? Yes, but terrible? That's not known yet, and I expect not, but that's just my view of these changes.

 

As a DG opponent, I'm happy to see DR change, simply because it was unfun in its previous iteration.

[Bulwyf]

T5 is the increased resilience against small arms fire. The new DR is going to be way easier to balance, and honestly the old DR was horrible to play against. All FNP effects are, but army-wide 5+++ made each game vs DG a chore.

 

DG are clearly getting other things, such as Remorseless (which is ATSKNF, but you also get other stuff), an improved inexorable Advance (the 'Chapter Tactic') and the Deadly Pathogens, it's extremely over the top to say that DG are going to be bottom tier. Different to before? Yes, but terrible? That's not known yet, and I expect not, but that's just my view of these changes.

 

As a DG opponent, I'm happy to see DR change, simply because it was unfun in its previous iteration.

 

You are aware that FNP has been the Death Guard gimmick for several editions I hope. That's a defining reason to play an army being completely removed. T5 isn't new either. 

 

Of course as a DG opponent you are happy to see us get nerfed.  I expect nothing else.

[jgascoine011]

Its just very hard to say now. Its frustraing the way GW are releasing teasers.

 

Nothing about what they have said makes me excited. Sure 2W marines are good, but SM already have that so we knew that was coming.

Right now I want to know why I should play DG instead of space marines and nothing they have released makes me go "oh wow thats cool".

 

Are hellbrutes getting duty eternal in addition to DR? If so then yea thats pretty cool, if not then thats pretty :cussty.

 

The deathguard legion rule was pretty crappy before and right now its not much of an improvment.

 

There is nothing released so far which makes me excited to play DG which i think is a real shame.

They look as though they are just going to be a generic legion, nothing cool of fun about them

[Bulwyf]

Its just very hard to say now. Its frustraing the way GW are releasing teasers.

 

Nothing about what they have said makes me excited. Sure 2W marines are good, but SM already have that so we knew that was coming.

Right now I want to know why I should play DG instead of space marines and nothing they have released makes me go "oh wow thats cool".

 

Are hellbrutes getting duty eternal in addition to DR? If so then yea thats pretty cool, if not then thats pretty :cussty.

 

The deathguard legion rule was pretty crappy before and right now its not much of an improvment.

 

There is nothing released so far which makes me excited to play DG which i think is a real shame.

They look as though they are just going to be a generic legion, nothing cool of fun about them

 

They did the same thing to my Space Wolves. They systematically removed much of the uniqueness from SW and gave back nothing. SW are just a different shade of blue Smurfs now.

[Kallas]

You are aware that FNP has been the Death Guard gimmick for several editions I hope. That's a defining reason to play an army being completely removed. T5 isn't new either. 

 

So?

 

No, really, so what?!

 

"That's how it has always been!" is not a good argument when it's actually becoming a problem, balance-wise. It's most definitely not a 'defining reason to play an army'; DG are still tough, and still significantly tougher than standard Marines. Losing (not losing, changing) 5+++ to being -1 damage (min 1) is still a big increase in resilience.

 

I guess here's a question for you: with all other Marines going to 2W, would you prefer to stay 1W with 5+++? Or do you, for some reason, expect to also go to 2W and keep an immensely powerful 5+++?

 

 

Of course as a DG opponent you are happy to see us get nerfed.  I expect nothing else.

 

Extremely reductionist, and entirely not what I said. Be more salty over an incomplete picture 

 

Oh wait, I forgot, you get salty about literally everything, never mind 

[Raktra]

 

Its just very hard to say now. Its frustraing the way GW are releasing teasers.

 

Nothing about what they have said makes me excited. Sure 2W marines are good, but SM already have that so we knew that was coming.

Right now I want to know why I should play DG instead of space marines and nothing they have released makes me go "oh wow thats cool".

 

Are hellbrutes getting duty eternal in addition to DR? If so then yea thats pretty cool, if not then thats pretty :cussty.

 

The deathguard legion rule was pretty crappy before and right now its not much of an improvment.

 

There is nothing released so far which makes me excited to play DG which i think is a real shame.

They look as though they are just going to be a generic legion, nothing cool of fun about them

 

They did the same thing to my Space Wolves. They systematically removed much of the uniqueness from SW and gave back nothing. SW are just a different shade of blue Smurfs now.

 

The entirely did not do that to us, don't be ridiculous.

[McElMcNinja]

I personally will miss the mechanic, I enjoyed having a unit survive by making an unreasonable amount of DR rolls. It didn’t happen all the time, but in those clutch moments when it did, it was fun.

 

Lore wise, Death Guard are more resilient. Are they more resilient to lasgun fire as a normal Space Marine? Maybe, maybe not, I mean it’s just lasgun fire. We have a spell that makes us T6, so those pesky lasguns only wound us on a 6, that’s something. Now bolters wound us on 5+, while normal SMS are still wounded on 4+’s. Heavy Bolters, well they wound us on 4’s and SMs on 3’s and it takes twice as many shots, that’s ok by me.

 

Maybe it’s a trade off that all our units get DR, like possessed and our vehicles. That would make it worth while for sure.

 

At this point I just really hope our terminators keep their 4++, but I’m not to confident they will.

[jgascoine011]

 

You are aware that FNP has been the Death Guard gimmick for several editions I hope. That's a defining reason to play an army being completely removed. T5 isn't new either. 

 

So?

 

No, really, so what?!

 

"That's how it has always been!" is not a good argument when it's actually becoming a problem, balance-wise. It's most definitely not a 'defining reason to play an army'; DG are still tough, and still significantly tougher than standard Marines. Losing (not losing, changing) 5+++ to being -1 damage (min 1) is still a big increase in resilience.

 

I guess here's a question for you: with all other Marines going to 2W, would you prefer to stay 1W with 5+++? Or do you, for some reason, expect to also go to 2W and keep an immensely powerful 5+++?

 

 

Of course as a DG opponent you are happy to see us get nerfed.  I expect nothing else.

 

Extremely reductionist, and entirely not what I said. Be more salty over an incomplete picture 

 

Oh wait, I forgot, you get salty about literally everything, never mind 

 

 

Not really

2W with 5+++ is survivable, but in the end all they are armed with is a boltgun