Possible changes in the new codex.

[Bulwyf]

 

You are aware that FNP has been the Death Guard gimmick for several editions I hope. That's a defining reason to play an army being completely removed. T5 isn't new either. 

 

So?

 

No, really, so what?!

 

"That's how it has always been!" is not a good argument when it's actually becoming a problem, balance-wise. It's most definitely not a 'defining reason to play an army'; DG are still tough, and still significantly tougher than standard Marines. Losing (not losing, changing) 5+++ to being -1 damage (min 1) is still a big increase in resilience.

 

I guess here's a question for you: with all other Marines going to 2W, would you prefer to stay 1W with 5+++? Or do you, for some reason, expect to also go to 2W and keep an immensely powerful 5+++?

 

 

Of course as a DG opponent you are happy to see us get nerfed.  I expect nothing else.

 

Extremely reductionist, and entirely not what I said. Be more salty over an incomplete picture 

 

Oh wait, I forgot, you get salty about literally everything, never mind 

 

 

DG are not the most resilient Astartes army any longer. The FNP and T5 have been staples of the army since I believe 3rd edition to reflect the lore. Losing FNP is a huge change to the army and to why you play it. You don't shrug off hits and keep going. You still have the negatives of being the slowest Astartes in the game but no advantage for that.

 

All Astartes are now 2 wounds so you can't use that as an excuse to single out DG for nerfing. Salamanders are now all two wounds should DG get all their unique abilities too? Strawman at its finest.

 

I did expect to have 2 wounds and 5+++ since DG has always had a FNP rule. I expected the balance to be their slow speed which still stays the same oddly but the point cost to increase. 

 

And no, to answer your needless personal insult, I don't get salty over everything. When GW is ****ing up armies I've collected for longer than you have probably been alive then I voice my informed opinion on the matter.  

 

 

Its just very hard to say now. Its frustraing the way GW are releasing teasers.

 

Nothing about what they have said makes me excited. Sure 2W marines are good, but SM already have that so we knew that was coming.

Right now I want to know why I should play DG instead of space marines and nothing they have released makes me go "oh wow thats cool".

 

Are hellbrutes getting duty eternal in addition to DR? If so then yea thats pretty cool, if not then thats pretty :cussty.

 

The deathguard legion rule was pretty crappy before and right now its not much of an improvment.

 

There is nothing released so far which makes me excited to play DG which i think is a real shame.

They look as though they are just going to be a generic legion, nothing cool of fun about them

 

They did the same thing to my Space Wolves. They systematically removed much of the uniqueness from SW and gave back nothing. SW are just a different shade of blue Smurfs now.

 

The entirely did not do that to us, don't be ridiculous.

 

 

Look for Rune Priests and Wolf Priests in our new codex and get back to me on that. I'll be waiting.

[Iron Sage]

General Jannis has done the math for us:

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I'm going to address a couple points that stood out to me in the bickering above.

 

1) "2W with 5+++ is survivable, but In the end all they are armed with is a bolt gun."

 

Nope. Plague Marines have a very diverse spread of weapon choices, and while the ranged are merely middling to good, the melee options are some of the best in the game. Not just the best available to an elite or specialist, but the best period. 

 

2) "You still have the negatives of being the slowest Astartes in the game but no advantage for that." 

 

Also nope. The speed penalty of DG is horrifically over stated. Yes the base movement of their troupes is lower, but the speed of their rhinos is the same as any other. On top of that, Bloat Drones are fast and can fly, Plague Crawlers are decent speed, Blight Haulers are decently quick, Defilers are fast, etc etc. And if that tiny smidge of move difference weren't easy enough to play around on its own, the army now ignores modifiers to their movement, meaning that even without climbing into a rhino, if they pass over a single crater they've already made up 2 rounds worth of speed loss. I'd like to stop seeing this brought up as if it isn't thoroughly compensated for elsewhere.

[Bulwyf]

I'm going to address a couple points that stood out to me in the bickering above.

 

1) "2W with 5+++ is survivable, but In the end all they are armed with is a bolt gun."

 

Nope. Plague Marines have a very diverse spread of weapon choices, and while the ranged are merely middling to good, the melee options are some of the best in the game. Not just the best available to an elite or specialist, but the best period. 

 

2) "You still have the negatives of being the slowest Astartes in the game but no advantage for that." 

 

Also nope. The speed penalty of DG is horrifically over stated. Yes the base movement of their troupes is lower, but the speed of their rhinos is the same as any other. On top of that, Bloat Drones are fast and can fly, Plague Crawlers are decent speed, Blight Haulers are decently quick, Defilers are fast, etc etc. And if that tiny smidge of move difference weren't easy enough to play around on its own, the army now ignores modifiers to their movement, meaning that even without climbing into a rhino, if they pass over a single crater they've already made up 2 rounds worth of speed loss. I'd like to stop seeing this brought up as if it isn't thoroughly compensated for elsewhere.

 

Point of order: you can't say "also nope" when an easily verifiable fact is presented. PM are in fact the slowest Astartes in the game. That's not up for debate. You can argue that other units are fast or slow or whatever but that doesn't change the fact PMs are the slowest Astartes in the game. PW are also slow. Every non vehicle or demon unit is the slowest in the game in the army. 

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

 

I'm going to address a couple points that stood out to me in the bickering above.

 

1) "2W with 5+++ is survivable, but In the end all they are armed with is a bolt gun."

 

Nope. Plague Marines have a very diverse spread of weapon choices, and while the ranged are merely middling to good, the melee options are some of the best in the game. Not just the best available to an elite or specialist, but the best period. 

 

2) "You still have the negatives of being the slowest Astartes in the game but no advantage for that." 

 

Also nope. The speed penalty of DG is horrifically over stated. Yes the base movement of their troupes is lower, but the speed of their rhinos is the same as any other. On top of that, Bloat Drones are fast and can fly, Plague Crawlers are decent speed, Blight Haulers are decently quick, Defilers are fast, etc etc. And if that tiny smidge of move difference weren't easy enough to play around on its own, the army now ignores modifiers to their movement, meaning that even without climbing into a rhino, if they pass over a single crater they've already made up 2 rounds worth of speed loss. I'd like to stop seeing this brought up as if it isn't thoroughly compensated for elsewhere.

 

Point of order: you can't say "also nope" when an easily verifiable fact is presented. PM are in fact the slowest Astartes in the game. That's not up for debate. You can argue that other units are fast or slow or whatever but that doesn't change the fact PMs are the slowest Astartes in the game. PW are also slow. Every non vehicle or demon unit is the slowest in the game in the army. 

 

 

It is up for debate. I am debating it. Or rather, I'm debunking it.

 

In terms of flat movement attribute, PM are matched by Rubrics and Heavy Intercessors. I'll stick to troupes for now, but if you like I can expand. When examined in a vacuum all three have movement 5". But when all rules are taken into account, PM are only as slow as those 2 units if they walk across a table clear of any craters or defensive barriers for the entirety of the game. The moment any of those units cross a bump in the road, PM become faster. So, at worst they're tied with a primary troupe choice of 2 other armies, and at best they're as fast as Slaanesh daemons, having an effective movement speed of 7" over difficult terrain. That is not the movement of the slowest army in the game.

 

If you look at DG as a whole they have plenty of vehicles that, yes, increase the mobility of the faction as a whole. So no, DG aren't a slow moving army. Not as a faction, and not even just in the case of PM. Even Pox Walkers are getting their hustle on now.

[Bulwyf]

 

 

I'm going to address a couple points that stood out to me in the bickering above.

 

1) "2W with 5+++ is survivable, but In the end all they are armed with is a bolt gun."

 

Nope. Plague Marines have a very diverse spread of weapon choices, and while the ranged are merely middling to good, the melee options are some of the best in the game. Not just the best available to an elite or specialist, but the best period. 

 

2) "You still have the negatives of being the slowest Astartes in the game but no advantage for that." 

 

Also nope. The speed penalty of DG is horrifically over stated. Yes the base movement of their troupes is lower, but the speed of their rhinos is the same as any other. On top of that, Bloat Drones are fast and can fly, Plague Crawlers are decent speed, Blight Haulers are decently quick, Defilers are fast, etc etc. And if that tiny smidge of move difference weren't easy enough to play around on its own, the army now ignores modifiers to their movement, meaning that even without climbing into a rhino, if they pass over a single crater they've already made up 2 rounds worth of speed loss. I'd like to stop seeing this brought up as if it isn't thoroughly compensated for elsewhere.

 

Point of order: you can't say "also nope" when an easily verifiable fact is presented. PM are in fact the slowest Astartes in the game. That's not up for debate. You can argue that other units are fast or slow or whatever but that doesn't change the fact PMs are the slowest Astartes in the game. PW are also slow. Every non vehicle or demon unit is the slowest in the game in the army. 

 

 

It is up for debate. I am debating it. Or rather, I'm debunking it.

 

In terms of flat movement attribute, PM are matched by Rubrics and Heavy Intercessors. I'll stick to troupes for now, but if you like I can expand. When examined in a vacuum all three have movement 5". But when all rules are taken into account, PM are only as slow as those 2 units if they walk across a table clear of any craters or defensive barriers for the entirety of the game. The moment any of those units cross a bump in the road, PM become faster. So, at worst they're tied with a primary troupe choice of 2 other armies, and at best they're as fast as Slaanesh daemons, having an effective movement speed of 7" over difficult terrain. That is not the movement of the slowest army in the game.

 

If you look at DG as a whole they have plenty of vehicles that, yes, increase the mobility of the faction as a whole. So no, DG aren't a slow moving army. Not as a faction, and not even just in the case of PM. Even Pox Walkers are getting their hustle on now.

 

 

You debunked nothing.  You can't blithely assume every game has craters or debris or whatever you are on about.  Personally my gaming terrain for 40k is a ruined hab city that has no craters or anything on the ground other than buildings. The non vehicle and demon units for DG are the slowest in the game. That's not up for debate.  I'm not sure why you are tilting at that particular windmill.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

At worst they are tied for slowest units in the game, and you should re-evaluate the way you lay out terrain. But realistically they aren't even tied. This is me explaining patiently to you how 40K works so that the new mechanics of the faction can be fairly evaluated as a whole. People are complaining about the weaknesses of PM, and DG as a faction, and I am telling you flatly that those weaknesses are not as pronounced as they were made out to be. In fact, as explained above, there is counter play for the reduced movement built into the faction rules themselves, and that is without using transports that negate it altogether. So as a weakness it holds no water, and that should weigh into how people evaluate where PM stand as a usable unit.

 

That'd be why I'm tilting at this particular giant. You'd know that if you'd read the first post you commented on.

[Marshal Loss]

Only just realised this, which sort of illustrates how I feel about the DR change: without taking into account any abilities or w/e we don't know about yet, a guardsman firing a lasgun now has exactly the same chance of killing a tactical marine as he does a plague marine. While lots has changed over the years, I can't think of any edition that I've played (since 3rd) where that was the case. Can totally see the argument for why that doesn't matter, e.g. the tabletop doesn't offer sufficient granularity to showcase the difference. And I know that a guardsman firing a lasgun at a space marine isn't what typically decides games. Just doesn't sit right with me.

 

Eh - don't want to appear overwhelmingly negative; it is what it is, and I look forward to playing the new book. Hoping for an exciting "Contagions" preview tomorrow.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[WickedJester1013]

Seems silly at this point to keep arguing about it. The math is on the net and like it if you like it and hate it if you hate it. But we don’t know what we are getting in this new codex and we could get a new rule tomorrow that makes this pointless. I’m sure we will see FNP somewhere in the new codex in a strat, relic, or plague surgeons.

 

What I’m curious, is if we will keep the basic daemons in the book or not. I chaos rolling with daemons is very thematic and hope it doesn’t break and army rules to have daemons. I’m also secretly hoping to get the shadow spear chaos stuff like obliterators and venom Crawlers

[Special Officer Doofy]

Only just realised this, which sort of illustrates how I feel about the DR change: without taking into account any abilities or w/e we don't know about yet, a guardsman firing a lasgun now has exactly the same chance of killing a tactical marine as he does a plague marine. While lots has changed over the years, I can't think of any edition that I've played (since 3rd) where that was the case. Can totally see the argument for why that doesn't matter, e.g. the tabletop doesn't offer sufficient granularity to showcase the difference. And I know that a guardsman firing a lasgun at a space marine isn't what typically decides games. :P Just doesn't sit right with me.

 

Eh - don't want to appear overwhelmingly negative. Hoping for an exciting "Contagions" preview tomorrow.

I ran out of likes awhile ago. I mean things will be good for DG, just from the extra wounds and out Daemon engines being more accurate, but DR is a nerf. I just wish people were better at math.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Only just realised this, which sort of illustrates how I feel about the DR change: without taking into account any abilities or w/e we don't know about yet, a guardsman firing a lasgun now has exactly the same chance of killing a tactical marine as he does a plague marine. While lots has changed over the years, I can't think of any edition that I've played (since 3rd) where that was the case. Can totally see the argument for why that doesn't matter, e.g. the tabletop doesn't offer sufficient granularity to showcase the difference. And I know that a guardsman firing a lasgun at a space marine isn't what typically decides games. Just doesn't sit right with me.

 

Eh - don't want to appear overwhelmingly negative. Hoping for an exciting "Contagions" preview tomorrow.

I ran out of likes awhile ago. I mean things will be good for DG, just from the extra wounds and out Daemon engines being more accurate, but DR is a nerf. I just wish people were better at math.

 

In the same boat brother

 

 

It has been a frustrating day of discussion. The funny thing is that it's really, really simple:

1. The new DR is, in a vacuum, mathematically worse than the old DR
2. The new DG are shaping up to be stronger and tougher where it counts than the old DG (e.g. context matters)

Both are objectively true! I really think I'm going to love the new book. I've made no secret of my happiness with everything else we've seen so far. Even if every rule was garbage I'd still be playing this army. It's just that I don't like the new DR. I'll get over it. Not been a particularly enjoyable dialogue today though, I'll say that much. Hope that the new Contagions ability shunts everything on both sides back into positivity

Edited December 11, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[Bulwyf]

At worst they are tied for slowest units in the game, and you should re-evaluate the way you lay out terrain. But realistically they aren't even tied. This is me explaining patiently to you how 40K works so that the new mechanics of the faction can be fairly evaluated as a whole. People are complaining about the weaknesses of PM, and DG as a faction, and I am telling you flatly that those weaknesses are not as pronounced as they were made out to be. In fact, as explained above, there is counter play for the reduced movement built into the faction rules themselves, and that is without using transports that negate it altogether. So as a weakness it holds no water, and that should weigh into how people evaluate where PM stand as a usable unit.

 

That'd be why I'm tilting at this particular giant. You'd know that if you'd read the first post you commented on.

 

I have played Rogue Trader/40k since it came out and started playing Warhammer Fantasy Battles in 1986. I know how to lay out terrain and what my local friends and gamers enjoy and do not enjoy for terrain layout. I appreciate the advise but I got it. 

 

I  have been a very long time DG player since at least 3rd edition. I know rules are not in a vacuum but since we are objectively comparing old DR to new DR and the flavor of DG (this is where I think you entered the thread) they must be compared. When I said DG pays for its improved toughness with being slow that's how they have always been balanced.  You can use transports but that takes up points you could use for something else. 

On foot the DG faction is slow. I'm not sure why we are debating this. You have tools and resources to make them faster, absolutely...at a cost. When you choose to boost their speed you lose points and resources for other things. You make it seem that all you have to do is wink and nod and DG suddenly is as fast as anyone else. That just isn't the case. Saying DG's slowness isn't a weakness is patently untrue. If you have to spend points on transports and CP/magic spells/special units to increase that speed that is ADDRESSING a weakness not pretending it wasn't there in the first place.

 

And while you are addressing that weakness you lose out on other options. 

[Bulwyf]

 

 

Only just realised this, which sort of illustrates how I feel about the DR change: without taking into account any abilities or w/e we don't know about yet, a guardsman firing a lasgun now has exactly the same chance of killing a tactical marine as he does a plague marine. While lots has changed over the years, I can't think of any edition that I've played (since 3rd) where that was the case. Can totally see the argument for why that doesn't matter, e.g. the tabletop doesn't offer sufficient granularity to showcase the difference. And I know that a guardsman firing a lasgun at a space marine isn't what typically decides games. Just doesn't sit right with me.

 

Eh - don't want to appear overwhelmingly negative. Hoping for an exciting "Contagions" preview tomorrow.

I ran out of likes awhile ago. I mean things will be good for DG, just from the extra wounds and out Daemon engines being more accurate, but DR is a nerf. I just wish people were better at math.

 

In the same boat brother

 

 

It has been a frustrating day of discussion. The funny thing is that it's really, really simple:

1. The new DR is, in a vacuum, mathematically worse than the old DR
2. The new DG are shaping up to be stronger and tougher where it counts than the old DG (e.g. context matters)

Both are objectively true! I really think I'm going to love the new book. I've made no secret of my happiness with everything else we've seen so far. Even if every rule was garbage I'd still be playing this army. It's just that I don't like the new DR. I'll get over it. Not been a particularly enjoyable dialogue today though, I'll say that much. Hope that the new Contagions ability shunts everything on both sides back into positivity

 

 

Here's hoping this is true. The new DR is undeniably worse than old DR.  I also would add the new rule about morale is garbage as well because morale is worthless in 9th just like it was worthless in 8th. I'll still play DG come hell or high water. I just hate seeing the gimmick they've had since at least 3rd edition get thrown out for a much, much worse version.

[Azekai]

I love being told how great my faction is by people who don’t play Death Guard.

[Balerion84]

Honestly, forget Plague Marines, if priced right, I'm sure they'll do just fine. I'm more worried about Morty at this point... although, at least this and his T8 makes him a bit better against Nightbringer.

[TrawlingCleaner]

My immediate knee-jerk reaction yesterday was that the new rule combined with 2W Pm and whatever else DG get is better than the old DR. I still think that's the case but as other people have pointed out, I'm going to miss the 5+++. I can't count the amount of times I needed a certain amount of FNP saves to foil my opponent's plan and somehow pulled it off (I think the highest I rolled was 8 5+++ to keep Typhus alive on 1W and help win the game).

 

DG are the army that's clicked with me the most, they're the most fun army I own and to be honest I don't think that will change with the codex. I'm really looking forward to the codex and what it brings

[aberrant_unc]

Disappointing sure but let's wait and see the points costs and ancillary rules.

[Kallas]

I love being told how great my faction is by people who don’t play Death Guard.

 

For my part, not saying the faction is great, I am saying that there is a lot of unnecessary crying, considering that more than one thing is changing, and we've already seen improvements in other areas. We haven't seen points costs, which is also a very significant factor about 

 

And if the C:Necrons, C:SM and Supplements are anything to go by, DG will be just fine. If anything, the reason why DG suffered in 8th is because they were an early 8th Codex, and didn't receive an update like SM did so they lagged behind.

 

Overall power level is being brought down, but Necrons weren't great in 8th either, and they've been buffed up a reasonable amount and are now a strong contender faction, so it's more likely in my mind that DG will get the same kind of treatment; Reanimation Protocols were also an obnoxious rule and they've been streamlined now, and yet it's still a potent rule (just like DR is still useful). I fail to see why the sky is being reported as falling - the rules changes to Necrons and SM were different, but they roughly on par with one another. Hopefully, GW can keep the Codexes on an even keel this time around.

[Marshal Loss]

Been thinking about the new DG Possessed. It's hard to think of a more improved unit pre-everything else we haven't seen yet:

• T5 instead of T4
• Core
• 4 attacks instead of D3
• Plague Weapons
• -1D from DR
• 3 wounds

I should probably start figuring out how I'm going to convert mine.

 

Contagions of Nurgle

 

Text:

 

 

Ability text:

If every unit from your army has the DEATH GUARD keyword (excluding UNALIGNED units), this unit gains the following ability:

Nurgle's Gift (Contagion): While an enemy unit is within Contagion Range of this unit (see opposite), subtract 1 from the Toughness characteristic of models in that enemy unit.

Round 1: 1" range

Round 2: 3" range

Round 3: 6" range

Round 4: 9" range

While similar to aura abilities, Contagion abilities are not affected by any abilities that affect Aura abilities, or vice-versa.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[jgascoine011]

Yes now this is something cool.

[Special Officer Doofy]

This might be why they nerfed DR as much as they did. The extra attack, the mono bonus to reduce toughness, the engines hitting on 3's, their killing potential is going up alot. I got a feeling there is going to be a fair amount of point increases with all of this haha.

[Bulwyf]

I love being told how great my faction is by people who don’t play Death Guard.

 

I ran out of likes but I echo this. Having random people show up here talking about how much they love DG getting nerfed is a bit much.

[Gederas]

Honestly, forget Plague Marines, if priced right, I'm sure they'll do just fine. I'm more worried about Morty at this point... although, at least this and his T8 makes him a bit better against Nightbringer.

Funny you mention the Nightbringer. Because.... You can still one-round Mortarion with the Nightbringer.

 

The fact that he DOESN'T have the "Can only take 4 Wounds per phase" ability somewhere is galling. Especially because, let's be honest here, he's going to be a 500 point or so model (because remember: 25PL is 500 Point games, and Mortarion is 25PL)

Edited December 11, 2020 by Gederas

[Kallas]

 

I love being told how great my faction is by people who don’t play Death Guard.

 

I ran out of likes but I echo this. Having random people show up here talking about how much they love DG getting nerfed is a bit much.

 

Whine less then. You did exactly the same thing on the Space Wolves sub forum for months.

 

Also - never said I love DG getting nerfed: I said that DR was horrible to play against, and the new DR is still good, plus there's new stuff (and the new WarCom article is the perfect example).

[Raktra]

 

 

Honestly, forget Plague Marines, if priced right, I'm sure they'll do just fine. I'm more worried about Morty at this point... although, at least this and his T8 makes him a bit better against Nightbringer.

Funny you mention the Nightbringer. Because.... You can still one-round Mortarion with the Nightbringer.

 

The fact that he DOESN'T have the "Can only take 4 Wounds per phase" ability somewhere is galling. Especially because, let's be honest here, he's going to be a 500 point or so model (because remember: 25PL is 500 Point games, and Mortarion is 25PL)

He’s staying 490 according to Warcom. But I do agree that it’s silly that a big Ork is tougher than Morty.